Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Eric.
The first simple truth is that the Greek word "ouranos," translated "heaven" (or the plural "ouranoi" translated "heavens"), is where our weather occurs and where the birds fly. Here's a sample of what I'm talking about:
I don't know which version you prefer, but the safest bet is to use the KJV.
Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV
Would it surprise you to know that the SAME GREEK WORD is translated as the highlighted words above, "heaven" and "sky?" Here's the Greek (transliterated):
Kata Maththaion 16:1-4
1 Kai proselthontes hoi Farisaioi kai Saddoukaioi peirazontes epeerooteesan auton seemeion ek tou ouranou epideixai autois.
2 Ho de apokritheis eipen autois, Opsias genomenees legete, “Eudia, purrazei gar ho ouranos,”
3 Kai prooi, “Seemeron cheimoon, purrazei gar stugnazoon ho ouranos.” To men prosoopon tou ouranou ginooskete diakrinein ta de seemeia toon kairoon ou dunasthe?
4 Genea pontera kai moichalis seemeion epizeetei, kai seemeion ou dotheesetai autee ei mee to seemeion Ioona. Kai katalipoon autous apeelthen.
Greek New Testament (UBS)
("Ouranou" is simply the genitive or ablative forms of "ouranos," btw. Thus, it means "of ouranos" or "from ouranos," respectively.) So, why are they translated as TWO DIFFERENT WORDS?! Almost every English version of the Bible gives two different words, disconnecting verse 1 from verses 2 and 3! Some well-meaning theologians will say that the definition of a particular Greek word is determined by its context, and that the word means "God's abode" in verse 1 but means the "heaven of clouds" in verses 2 and 3. But, this is where you must think like one who actually SPOKE in Koine Greek. Would HE differentiate between the "ouranos" of verse 1 and the "ouranos" of verses 2 and 3?! OF COURSE NOT!!! To him, they would be exactly the same word! (Which they are!)
There ARE other Greek words that were translated "heaven," or "heavenly." There's "epouranios," "mesouraneema," "ouranios," and "ouranothen." Only two of these are positional by prepositional prefixes.
"Epouranios" is formed from "epi" meaning "above" and the adjective form of "ouranos," meaning "of-or-belonging-to-above-ouranos."
"Mesouraneema" is formed from "meso" meaning "in the middle of" and a form of "ouranos," thus meaning "in the middle of ouranos."
The other two are just different forms of "ouranos."
So, IF the heavens are three, as Scofield propagated in the Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV, namely, "the first heaven = of clouds, the second heaven = of stars, and the third heaven = God's abode," wouldn't you think that the Greek words would somehow mirror that assumption? They DON'T! Through Strong's Concordance, I've looked up EVERY occurrence of each of these words, and "in the middle of ouranos" is STILL talking about the "heaven of clouds" because of the "limiting reagent" of Revelation 19:17:
Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
KJV
Maybe angels (as in Revelation 8:13 and 14:6) can fly where the clouds can't exist, but birds sure can't!
Epouranios is translated as "heavenly," but it is also translated as "celestial" in 1 Corinthians 15:
1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV
Whoops! So the sun, moon, and stars that are said to be in the "second heaven" are actually said to be "ABOVE the ouranos" which is the main word translated "heaven!" So, think about it: what is the "ouranos" such that the sun, moon, and stars are said to be above it and the birds fly in the middle of it? It's our planet's ATMOSPHERE!
Now, can you guess which word is translated as "heaven" in 2 Corinthians 5:2?
I'm going to stop with that thought. Ponder on it; meditate upon it! It makes a difference in 2 Corinthians 5!
Shabbat shalom, Eric!
(Sorry, I started my last post before Shabbat began as sundown.)
Have a great Shabbat and Purim! Chaq sameach!
I used to put the emphasis on these things, too, but I've learned a few things since then. Some things that one learns require a paradigm shift in one's thinking. We know that the NT (or most of it) was originally written in Aramaic or Hebrew; however, our oldest manuscripts are written in Koine Greek. It is important that when we look at the Koine Greek of a passage of Scripture, we look at it as though we WERE a person who spoke Koine Greek.Eric E Stahl said:Retrobyter,
When we die our spirit leaves the body and is taken to heaven where we are given a new house for our spirit. At the resurrection our heavenly body with our spirit will be put on our changed earth ly bodies.
2 Corinthians 5:1-10
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The first simple truth is that the Greek word "ouranos," translated "heaven" (or the plural "ouranoi" translated "heavens"), is where our weather occurs and where the birds fly. Here's a sample of what I'm talking about:
I don't know which version you prefer, but the safest bet is to use the KJV.
Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV
Would it surprise you to know that the SAME GREEK WORD is translated as the highlighted words above, "heaven" and "sky?" Here's the Greek (transliterated):
Kata Maththaion 16:1-4
1 Kai proselthontes hoi Farisaioi kai Saddoukaioi peirazontes epeerooteesan auton seemeion ek tou ouranou epideixai autois.
2 Ho de apokritheis eipen autois, Opsias genomenees legete, “Eudia, purrazei gar ho ouranos,”
3 Kai prooi, “Seemeron cheimoon, purrazei gar stugnazoon ho ouranos.” To men prosoopon tou ouranou ginooskete diakrinein ta de seemeia toon kairoon ou dunasthe?
4 Genea pontera kai moichalis seemeion epizeetei, kai seemeion ou dotheesetai autee ei mee to seemeion Ioona. Kai katalipoon autous apeelthen.
Greek New Testament (UBS)
("Ouranou" is simply the genitive or ablative forms of "ouranos," btw. Thus, it means "of ouranos" or "from ouranos," respectively.) So, why are they translated as TWO DIFFERENT WORDS?! Almost every English version of the Bible gives two different words, disconnecting verse 1 from verses 2 and 3! Some well-meaning theologians will say that the definition of a particular Greek word is determined by its context, and that the word means "God's abode" in verse 1 but means the "heaven of clouds" in verses 2 and 3. But, this is where you must think like one who actually SPOKE in Koine Greek. Would HE differentiate between the "ouranos" of verse 1 and the "ouranos" of verses 2 and 3?! OF COURSE NOT!!! To him, they would be exactly the same word! (Which they are!)
There ARE other Greek words that were translated "heaven," or "heavenly." There's "epouranios," "mesouraneema," "ouranios," and "ouranothen." Only two of these are positional by prepositional prefixes.
"Epouranios" is formed from "epi" meaning "above" and the adjective form of "ouranos," meaning "of-or-belonging-to-above-ouranos."
"Mesouraneema" is formed from "meso" meaning "in the middle of" and a form of "ouranos," thus meaning "in the middle of ouranos."
The other two are just different forms of "ouranos."
So, IF the heavens are three, as Scofield propagated in the Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV, namely, "the first heaven = of clouds, the second heaven = of stars, and the third heaven = God's abode," wouldn't you think that the Greek words would somehow mirror that assumption? They DON'T! Through Strong's Concordance, I've looked up EVERY occurrence of each of these words, and "in the middle of ouranos" is STILL talking about the "heaven of clouds" because of the "limiting reagent" of Revelation 19:17:
Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
KJV
Maybe angels (as in Revelation 8:13 and 14:6) can fly where the clouds can't exist, but birds sure can't!
Epouranios is translated as "heavenly," but it is also translated as "celestial" in 1 Corinthians 15:
1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV
Whoops! So the sun, moon, and stars that are said to be in the "second heaven" are actually said to be "ABOVE the ouranos" which is the main word translated "heaven!" So, think about it: what is the "ouranos" such that the sun, moon, and stars are said to be above it and the birds fly in the middle of it? It's our planet's ATMOSPHERE!
Now, can you guess which word is translated as "heaven" in 2 Corinthians 5:2?
I'm going to stop with that thought. Ponder on it; meditate upon it! It makes a difference in 2 Corinthians 5!
Shabbat shalom, Eric!
(Sorry, I started my last post before Shabbat began as sundown.)
Have a great Shabbat and Purim! Chaq sameach!
