Alive or dead

[brakelite]

It doesn't matter if one accepts this story as a true narrative or a parable, the truth being taught is what happens after death for believer and unbeliever.

No, that is not what is being taught. If believers are in Abraham's bosom, what bosom is Abraham in? Do
believers hear the cries of the wicked in torment? Can we hold conversations with them? Will we be able to see them? Will our joy and happiness in heaven be so exalted that it crushes out all compassion for those suffering? Are these who are now in their eternal state before the resurrection having eyes, ears, tongues, and fingers? Sorry, ozpen but to many holes for this to be taken literally as a lesson on the afterlife. As a lesson against the Pharisees who were listening, and a story based on their own superstitions to reveal their unfaithfulness and prejudices, yes. An explanation of what takes place at death? No.

 

[brakelite]

brakelite,

I have no idea why you included Mark 9:43-47 as a reference to support your theology because this is what it states:

43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (NIV).​

Your statements here are your theories:

• Annihilation doesn't take place at death.
• the whole body soul spirit is destroyed in hell. Mark 9:43-47
• That resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium when the city new Jerusalem descends from heaven to the earth.
• The fire which destroys the wicked comes down from heaven forming the lake which devours everything prior to the new earth being created.

'Despite your theological expertise and linguistic skills you still need to reconcile your conclusions with the character of God'. This is a pejorative comment. The character of God includes attributes both of love (1 John 4:7-21), wrath (Rom 1:18; 2:7-8; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 10:31); and justice/righteousness (Gen 18:25; Acts 17:31).

Oz

The resurrection of the wicked takes place at the end of the millennium. Our resurrection takes place at the beginning of the millennium, at the second coming. I included the quote from Mark because it is clear Jesus was saying that whatever burns in hell includes eyes and hands etc. Our bodies. But how can that be according to your belief that people are already there and there is yet to be a resurrection?

 

[brakelite]

Please tell me where God requires 2 or 3 witnesses to determine if justice is achieved

There is no biblical theology of 'arbitrary punishment or execution of the wicked' (your language). God's teaching is:

It would be arbitrary of the werent witnesses.
KJV Deuteronomy 17
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
In your theological studies was theodicy included? Do you understand the need for God's character to be vindicated before the universe because of Lucifer's lies and slander? Do you understand the reasoning why God needs witnesses and our testimony? Do you understand how that throughout scripture there is a constant theme... Paradigm... Legal proceedings going on between Christ and Satan... The defender and accuser... God as judge... We as witnesses and our testimony being a legal affidavit affirming the justice and righteousness of God and this being played out before a watching universe? Thus the need for judgement and justice to be seen to be done and completed. Eternal torment will never be completed therefore justice can never be fulfilled if eternal torment is true.

 

[Giuliano]

No, that is not what is being taught. If believers are in Abraham's bosom, what bosom is Abraham in? Do
believers hear the cries of the wicked in torment? Can we hold conversations with them? Will we be able to see them? Will our joy and happiness in heaven be so exalted that it crushes out all compassion for those suffering? Are these who are now in their eternal state before the resurrection having eyes, ears, tongues, and fingers? Sorry, ozpen but to many holes for this to be taken literally as a lesson on the afterlife. As a lesson against the Pharisees who were listening, and a story based on their own superstitions to reveal their unfaithfulness and prejudices, yes. An explanation of what takes place at death? No.

Jews would have understood what Jesus meant since they teach that Gehinnom and Paradise are next to each other, separated by a small space. That is standard Jewish thought, and Jews would have recognized exactly what Jesus meant.

The rich man was in Gehinnom and Abraham and Lazarus in Paradise. Gehinnom is like the Catholic Purgatory. It's not a place of eternal punishment, although some souls experience it as agony as the flames burn away impurities of the soul. Yes, a soul that is severely wicked can die in Gehinnom although few do; and they may not see either soul or body resurrected.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, and some souls sleep, going to neither Gehinnom or Paradise. The problem with such sleeping souls is that they can't change for the better. They don't know anything. That is why both Jews and some Christians pray for the dead. Angels can wake them up. If they are in Gehinnom, they may be comforted somewhat.

I do not read "physical bodies" here:

Matthew 27:51 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It was their souls that looked like bodies to those who saw them; and do not think that everyone saw them. Josephus loved to record miraculous things, and he doesn't mention it. The saints whose souls slept were awakened. Only living saints would have seen them, just as only saints saw Jesus after the resurrection. It still remains for their "physical dust" to be resurrected.

We see something of the same thing when the "witch of Endor" summoned Samuel. It was Samuel, part of him. It was a part that should have been allowed to sleep until it was God's Will to wake him. Samuel wasn't happy about it.

I also do not read "Heaven" here:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If we read "Heaven," we find it impossible to square it with:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If we define the words the way Jews defined them then (and still do)m Jesus and the thief went to Paradise, where Abraham is. Jesus ascended to Heaven later. So I think.

 

[complete]

Paul spoke of our terrestrial tent, and our eternal house, not made with hands, that we have now. In the resurrection, the eternal will clothe upon the terrestrial body that is raised back up, from the two making one new man, as it were.

But this is how God describes it, that we are in bodies here, while at the same time we have being in the heavenly realm together with Christ, and we have celestial bodies now that if the terrestrial tent is taken down, we continue on in the celestial body, then no longer tethered to our physical senses, then we will see Him, though we be with Him now.

Much love!

Hi @marks,

Forgive me picking up on a post entered earlier in the thread, but it caught my eye, and I just want to respond to it.

'There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:
but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.'
(1 Corinthians 15:40)

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)​

* The words of God are not random, are they? They have purpose. So, we must take care to keep them within the contexts that we find them, otherwise we can twist and deform the truth they are intended to convey.

* I have looked up as you can see the terms you have used in your entry, and one thing particularly is ringing a discordant note for me. That is your use of the term, 'one new man'. For this term has a special usage, which has no place in the context in which you have used it, but I think that you new that, didn't you. :)

'But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For He is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in is flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby:... '
(Ephesians 2:13-16) ​

* Though I can understand why you should think as you do, as expressed in your last paragraph, I still think you are in danger of introducing a concept which was never intended. For we do not receive our celestial bodies, or the building. of God not made with hands, until we are resurrected out from among the dead. For the building of God (or our celestial bodies) are at present in heaven awaiting that event.

* At death, by God's reckoning, the believer is then 'asleep in Christ' awaiting resurrection. 'Unclothed' in death, neither having the terrestrial, or celestial body, awaiting the power of the resurrection which will quicken it into life, and change it from 'mortal' to 'immortal', from 'corruption' into 'in-corruption'. Mortality needs to be swallowed up of life. The natural into spiritual life.

Praise God! For He will do it.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodsGrace]

Because the arbitrary punishment or execution of the wicked is a concept totally foreign to the character of God who demanded even of us that there be two or more witnesses to a crime before punishment is given out. What righteousness He asks of us is the same He Himself exercises. Justice seen to be done is important to God to counter before the universe the lies and slander of the accuser.

Good explanation.
It made me think of how I view calvinism....no justice from a just God.

But then the N.T. says that the wicked will be thrown into the Lake of Fire
OR will go to eternal "judgement" (punishment).

So do you think the L of F will just burn everything out forever?

 

[Giuliano]

Good explanation.
It made me think of how I view calvinism....no justice from a just God.

But then the N.T. says that the wicked will be thrown into the Lake of Fire
OR will go to eternal "judgement" (punishment).

So do you think the L of F will just burn everything out forever?

It does not actually say they will be there eternally. Indeed it says something that startled me when I first read it.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

They aren't in the Lake of Fire eternally then. I read it to mean there is no more time to change for the better. All vices have been burned away, but there is no chance to replace them with virtues. These people are "incomplete" and will remain so. They are pictured outside the Holy City and cannot enter.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[ScottA]

So when we are spiritually connected to Christ...He in us, the hope of glory... Which answers to the above verse, you would proposition the idea that such a time is when we are resurrected physically to eternal life... That mortal is then at that time clothed with immortality? If that is the case, then your concepts are more diverse from mine than I heretofore realised. We will never agree.

I am not sure I understand just what it is that you are saying that I have "propositioned." I would put it in this way:

Physical resurrection was only a foreshadowing (even with Christ), and the actual resurrection unto God is rather portrayed in His ascension, wherein His physical body returned to the dust (in his earthly church) as it is written, and His spirit (all that He committed to the Father) returned to God who gave it (as it is written). And "that day" whether salvation or judgement or new life or passing from death to life, is that day of His coming (again) to each when they answer His knocking and He enters in.

 

[GodsGrace]

It does not actually say they will be there eternally. Indeed it says something that startled me when I first read it.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

They aren't in the Lake of Fire eternally then. I read it to mean there is no more time to change for the better. All vices have been burned away, but there is no chance to replace them with virtues. These people are "incomplete" and will remain so. They are pictured outside the Holy City and cannot enter.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

I'm not here to try to debate this...if it's your belief, that's what it is...your salvation does not depend on this belief...

There are verses like Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says that some will go into eternal punishment and some to eternal life...

I just tend to trust what Jesus taught.
Eternal means forever...But who knows what He meant by punishment...
maybe just being away from God is punishment enough.

 

[Giuliano]

I'm not here to try to debate this...if it's your belief, that's what it is...your salvation does not depend on this belief...

There are verses like Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says that some will go into eternal punishment and some to eternal life...

I just tend to trust what Jesus taught.
Eternal means forever...But who knows what He meant by punishment...
maybe just being away from God is punishment enough.

Yes, punishment does not have to mean what some believe.

I believe there is a form of eternal punishment. The worst in my mind is the outer darkness. People being outside the Holy City, knowing they could never enter would also be a form of eternal punishment.

 

[quietthinker]

qt,

What's the difference between physical death and spiritual death in Scripture?

Oz

Ultimately there is no difference, however by God's patience he endures our stiff necked resistance to his Spirit till the appointed time.
However, even while this mortal body is wearing out or is still animated, man can cut himself off by hardening his heart from all of God's attempts to whooo him. In other words, he becomes spiritually dead.

 

[brakelite]

Jews would have understood what Jesus meant since they teach that Gehinnom and Paradise are next to each other, separated by a small space. That is standard Jewish thought, and Jews would have recognized exactly what Jesus meant.

The rich man was in Gehinnom and Abraham and Lazarus in Paradise. Gehinnom is like the Catholic Purgatory. It's not a place of eternal punishment, although some souls experience it as agony as the flames burn away impurities of the soul. Yes, a soul that is severely wicked can die in Gehinnom although few do; and they may not see either soul or body resurrected.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, and some souls sleep, going to neither Gehinnom or Paradise. The problem with such sleeping souls is that they can't change for the better. They don't know anything. That is why both Jews and some Christians pray for the dead. Angels can wake them up. If they are in Gehinnom, they may be comforted somewhat.

I do not read "physical bodies" here:

Matthew 27:51 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It was their souls that looked like bodies to those who saw them; and do not think that everyone saw them. Josephus loved to record miraculous things, and he doesn't mention it. The saints whose souls slept were awakened. Only living saints would have seen them, just as only saints saw Jesus after the resurrection. It still remains for their "physical dust" to be resurrected.

We see something of the same thing when the "witch of Endor" summoned Samuel. It was Samuel, part of him. It was a part that should have been allowed to sleep until it was God's Will to wake him. Samuel wasn't happy about it.

I also do not read "Heaven" here:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If we read "Heaven," we find it impossible to square it with:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If we define the words the way Jews defined them then (and still do)m Jesus and the thief went to Paradise, where Abraham is. Jesus ascended to Heaven later. So I think.

And such as above is the inevitable result of having strange views of death and the afterlife affected by philosophies from such as Plato.

 

[brakelite]

So do you think the L of F will just burn everything out forever?

Yes. Sin and sinners eradicated from the universe completely. Nothing will remain to mar God's creation. And the only reminders the scars on the hands of the Saviour.

 

[Giuliano]

And such as above is the inevitable result of having strange views of death and the afterlife affected by philosophies from such as Plato.

How do you account for it then that the Jews believe Paradise and Gehinnom are separated by only a small "space" and Jesus depicts the situation that way with Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man? There is a deep chasm, but you can still see from one to the other.

PARADISE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

There are a nether Gehinnom and an upper one, over against the nether and the upper Gan 'Eden. Curiously enough, hell and paradise join each other. R. Johanan claims that a partition of only a hand-breadth, or four inches wide, separates them. The Rabbis say the width is but two fingers (= inches; Midr. Ḳohelet; Yalḳ., 976). R. Akiba said: "Every man born has two places reserved for him: one in paradise, and one in Gehinnom. If he be righteous he gets his own place and that of his wicked neighbor in paradise; if he be wicked he gets his own place and that of his righteous neighbor in Gehinnom" (Hag. 16a; see "Sefer Ḥasidim," §§ 609, 610). The question "Who may be a candidate for either Gehinnom or paradise?" is solved by the majority rule. If the majority of the acts of the individual are meritorious, he enters paradise; if wicked, he goes to Gehinnom; and if they are equal, God mercifully removes one wicked act and places it in the scale of good deeds.

I don't know if it only two fingers; but it's close. Nothing that bad was happening to the rich man. Surely God is in hell. The Bible says so.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

The flames are the Sacred Flames of Love. If we resist them, we feel pain. All he needed to do was stop resisting Love. Abraham was trying to explain things to him; but all he was worried about was himself and his relatives. He still didn't care about Lazarus. His idea was to have Lazarus enter the flames and suffer to give him a drop of water.

Would Jesus have used the word "Paradise" the way his listeners used it? How do you explain the promise made to the thief to meet him in Paradise if Jesus didn't ascend to the Father until after the resurrection?

 

[Giuliano]

Yes. Sin and sinners eradicated from the universe completely. Nothing will remain to mar God's creation. And the only reminders the scars on the hands of the Saviour.

What about the people outside the Holy City? They were thrown into the Lake of Fire and later they're shown as being outside the Holy City.

 

[brakelite]

What about the people outside the Holy City? They were thrown into the Lake of Fire and later they're shown as being outside the Holy City.

Their destruction takes place outside the city ( new Jerusalem) because attacking it was their only option other than the inpending destruction. They are resurrected outside the city.... Try to attack the city... And are subsequently destroyed there.

 

[brakelite]

How do you account for it then that the Jews believe Paradise and Gehinnom are separated by only a small space and Jesus depicts the situation that way with Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man?

Would Jesus have used the word "Paradise" the way his listeners used it? How do you explain the promise made to the thief to meet him in Paradise if Jesus didn't ascend to the Father until after the resurrection?

I have no explanation as to why Jews believe the way they do... They aren't capable of being wrong? Look up Paradise in revelation to see where it is.

 

[Giuliano]

Their destruction takes place outside the city ( new Jerusalem) because attacking it was their only option other than the inpending destruction. They are resurrected outside the city.... Try to attack the city... And are subsequently destroyed there.

That's adding a lot of details to the text. It's also a little off since the second resurrection of the unrighteous occurs first, then their judgment, and then they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Then later they're shown outside the Holy City.

I have no explanation as to why Jews believe the way they do... They aren't capable of being wrong? Look up Paradise in revelation to see where it is.

Surely the Jews could be wrong. I don't believe everything in that quote I gave. However, Paradise means garden; and the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Of course the thief could have gone to Paradise the very day Jesus said he would meet him there.

 

[OzSpen]

No, that is not what is being taught. If believers are in Abraham's bosom, what bosom is Abraham in? Do
believers hear the cries of the wicked in torment? Can we hold conversations with them? Will we be able to see them? Will our joy and happiness in heaven be so exalted that it crushes out all compassion for those suffering? Are these who are now in their eternal state before the resurrection having eyes, ears, tongues, and fingers? Sorry, ozpen but to many holes for this to be taken literally as a lesson on the afterlife. As a lesson against the Pharisees who were listening, and a story based on their own superstitions to reveal their unfaithfulness and prejudices, yes. An explanation of what takes place at death? No.

brakelite,

That's because you don't understand what Abraham's Bosom means. Who went there in the story of the rich man and Lazarus? It was Lazarus, the poor man, of course! This is what it means:

It is his soul, of course, that was so borne by the angels, not his body. Into Abraham's bosom (ei ton olpon Abraam). To be in Abraham's bosom is to the Jew to be in Paradise. In John 1:18 the Logos is in the bosom of the Father. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are in heaven and welcome those who come (Matthew 8:11 ; 4 Macc. 14:17). The beloved disciple reclined on the bosom of Jesus at the last passover (John 13:23 ) and this fact indicates special favour. So the welcome to Lazarus was unusual (A T Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Luke 16:22).​

Your issue seems to be that you want to take each part of this parable to mean something specifically. That's not what the parable teaches. A parable has one meaning and it's primary meaning is that after death the righteous (illustrated by Lazarus) enjoy Paradise = heaven = Abraham's bosom. The damned (e.g. the rich man) are suffering conscious punishment while the believer is in the conscious heaven of bliss.

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

Come on, mate! No difference between physical death and spiritual death? You must be joking.

Agreed. As I said earlier, there is a lot of confusion regarding the afterlife, and the SDA church is responsible for quite a bit of it.

Would it help to present Bible truth? Not really. Some prefer the false ideas of their churches to the truth of God's Word.