America is Babylon

[Guestman]

Hi Guestman, I still believe that these things will occur at the beginning of the millennium. The house of Jehovah won't be "firmly established" until after His second advent.

Your words: "It is now that both Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 are being fulfilled, with the reestablishment of the "pure religion"(James 1:27, King James Bible) following the apostasizing of the Christian congregation after the death of the apostles."

What is the identity of this "pure religion", in your eyes? To my mind, "religion" has always been the playground of satan.

At James 1:27, James wrote: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."(King James Bible) James used the Greek words threskeia (G2356) meaning "religious worship, religion" and kathara (G2513) meaning "clean, pure". Thus, the "pure religion" is the one that is "unspotted from the world", not being involved in any form or fashion with it.

If you were looking at a US dollar, how could it be determined if it was genuine or counterfeit ? By several distinguishing characteristics or security features, such the tiny interwoven blue and red thread, texture, clear, unbroken borders, an embedded security thread that, when held up to the light, has the denomination written out (such as "USA FIVE", "USA TEN"), or hold up a bill to a black light and and an authentic $5 bill will glow blue, the $10 bill glows orange, the $20 bill glows green, etc., these features distinguishing a genuine bill from one that is counterfeit.

Likewise of the "pure religion" or "true religion", it has distinguishing features that separates it from the "weeds" or counterfeit religions. It honors the God's name of Jehovah. Jesus taught his disciples to pray for God's name to he "hallowed" or sanctified at Matthew 6:9.

Have the churches honored God's name of Jehovah, teaching their members to pray for it ? No. Rather they have hid his name by supplanting Jehovah with "God" or "Lord", continuing a Jewish superstition that began in about the 2nd century C.E. Yet God's name of Jehovah is found at least 6,972 times in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament), and in which The Divine Name King James Bible has now placed it where it rightly belongs.

Moses sang in song moments after the waters of the Red Sea drown Pharaoh and his army: "My strength and my might is Jah (shortened form of Jehovah), since he serve for my salvation. This is my God, and I shall laud him; my father's God, and I shall raise him on high."(Ex 15:2) Have the churches lauded Jehovah' s name ? No. In fact, I never hear it from any church going members nor any "religious" person. Only from Jehovah's Witnesses.

In order for people to "know Jehovah" from one end of the earth to the other end, and survive the coming "great tribulation" (Matt 24:21), these have to be taught. Did not John write down that a "great crowd" would pass through the "great tribulation" at Revelation 7:14 ? Are not these ones who have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb", rendering "sacred service" to God "day and night in his temple" ?(Rev 7:14, 15) Where did this "great crowd" come from ? And where did they learn to "know Jehovah" ?(Jer 31:34)

These have to be taught, just as Jesus said to his faithful disciples: "Go therefore and make disciples.....teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19, 20) Isaiah said: "Search for Jehovah, you people, while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near."(Isa 55:6) Those searching for Jehovah are given instructions of how to please him, such as beating their "swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears" (Isa 2:2-4) before the "great tribulation", for these must be pleasing God before it breaks forth in order to pass through it.

Have the churches taught their members to "know Jehovah", teaching them how to ' learn war no more ', to become "peacemakers" ?(Matt 5:9, King James Bible) Have they taught their members how to be "no part of the world" that Jesus said would identify his genuine disciples (John 15:19), not mingling or mixing with the political arena nor other aspects of the "world", not even giving either mental or a hand of support by casting votes (or even recommending) for their particular candidate ?(Rev 13:16)

Here are ten identifying marks of the "pure religion":

(1) Those who practice it have genuine love among themselves.(John 13:34,35; 1 John 4:8)

(2) All their beliefs are based on the Bible.(John 17:17; 2 Tim 3:16,17)

(3) They pray for God's name of Jehovah to be hallowed or sanctified. (Matt 6:9; Ps 83:18)

(4) They proclaim God's kingdom in all the earth, not some political or social philosophy.(Matt 24:14; Acts 28:23)

(5) They keep separate from the world's affairs, untainted by the world's politics or conflicts, remaining neutral in time of war.(James 1:27; John 17:14)

(6) They put God's kingdom and his righteousness first in their lives.(Matt 6:33)

(7) They cultivate the fruitage of God's spirit, not condoning war or personal violence.(Gal 5:22,23; Rom 12:17-21)

(8) They obey all human laws not contrary to God's law.(Rom 13:1-7)

(9) The true religion successfully unites people of every race, language, and tribe. It does not preach nationalism or hatred, but love worldwide.(Isaiah 2:2-4; Col 3:10,11)

(10) The true religion teaches the truth regarding God's purpose for man and the earth.(Matt 5:5; Ps 115:16; Isaiah 45:18)

News flash, the Catholic Church is NOT representative of all branches of Christianity, and nor does that treaty. The Roman Church undoubtedly was thinking of its members in... Nazi Germany seeking protection for them, which would translate to protection from Hitler's Facist ally Mussolini in Italy. It is recognized that those against the Catholic Church would use that as some political tool against the Catholic Church simply because of orthdox Jews being persecuted by Hitler, even going so far as to assume the treaty meant the Catholic Church was saying it's OK to persecute Jews. I don't believe the Catholic Church was supporting any of Nazi Germany's persecutions of Jews and other ethnic groups. The facts of history are that Hitler's Germany persecuted Christians and non-Jews also, not just Jews. So when you throw such things out like that, it means you're siding with the political speech of orthodox Jews, unbelieving Jews who still do not believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Saviour.

Firstly, many of the U.S. founding fathers were... Christian preachers. There's abundance of proof of that even within the portico of the White House in Washington, D.C. So the idea some have that Christians are supposed to stay out of the arena of politics of the nation really doesn't mean sqwat. That idea some try to apply towards Christians is just more POLITICAL SPEECH by those who seek to SILENCE Christianity, and Christian values in American society. Wonder who that would be today?


U.S. Capitol Tour With David Barton:

http://stg.do/Iwpc
That history above David Barton spells out with the evidence at the U.S. Capitol building is what I am Patriotic about concerning the United States of America and we the people. That is how I myself and many, many others in America still see our nation. The people of God founded this nation through God's leading, so it's only a simple matter of WHO one chooses to listen to. One can either listen to the haters of America and haters of the Christian history involving this nation, or they can listen to God Who founded this nation and all the western Christian nations in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. So who are YOU listening to?

You really don't know what you're talking about when you try to separate the Christian history of the U.S. apart from God's Word The Bible. Christ established His Kingdom partially here on earth when He guided the Apostles and disciples with taking The Gospel especially to the western Christian nations, and by that those nations were blessed. Those early Christian nations also went through turmoils in their history from those who sought to destroy Christianity and all of God's people, and that has still continued today. Yet Christianity and The Gospel is STILL HERE TODAY. And IT is still going out to the nations and peoples outside the Christian West (even by Christian Forums like this one), and still producing MUCH fruit in Christ Jesus. It's the perspective you've been taught that is causing you such a slanted view against all that.

Man, you don't know how wrong you are about that. Per Acts 9:15, Christ Jesus chose Apostle Paul as His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to the Gentiles, to KINGS, and to the children of Israel. What is it you think 'kings' do? Kings have kingdoms they rule... over, and those kingdoms have people that under that rule and authority. In the 1st Edition of the 1611 KJV Bible, the translators addressed a letter to King James, calling him "Defender Of The Faith". Just as it was the responsibility of Israel's kings to defend God's Word to His people, those Christian kings were called to do the same thing. The U.S. is not left out of that either just because we have no king upon a throne, because the U.S. Constitution provides the rule of law with many laws from God's Word established through that founding document, and other founding documents. The U.S. court system in the U.S. today still follow many laws that originate from God's laws in The Bible. That's what those you're listening to are trying to tear down. Their speech is subversive speech against the United States of America and its people.

Not all Protestant clergies represent true Christians, and true Christian Churches in America, not even then. The Soviet Russians supported the idea of a United Nations control too (as per ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen in his 1958 work The Naked Communist.) And just so happens, one can see Communist goals being supported by internationalist groups like the United Nations, things like destroying the sovereignty of the United States of America, along with other nations.
Once the United Nations apparatus was FORCED upon free nations after World War II, other nations HAD to join, or be left out of international affairs. And per U.S. history, Alger Hiss was one of the main instigators in the U.S. state department representing the signing of the U.S. onto the United Nations Charter in late 1940's San Francisco. Alger Hiss was also later discovered to be a Soviet Russian Communist SPY. Whittaker Chambers (another Soviet spy crept into the U.S. state dept. that was caught) testified to that fact. So like I said, the Communists wanted... the United Nations apparatus because it helped further their goal of World Communism. And trapping the U.S. to sign the charter was a way to force other free nations to follow suit to cause it become a bloated organization that often violates the sovereignity of nations and civil rights of peoples in many nations through pushing its internationalists laws, many laws that are clearly un-Constitutional in the U.S.

You mean the National Council of Churches that was established in 1950 (which was the old Federal Council of Churches that began earlier in the late 1800's and early 1900's). At present there are 37 Church organization members. That's still not all .... the Christian Church organizations in America. Movements like that has nothing to do with the 'real' Christian Churches in America that have Christ only as their Head. Such a movement I believe is actually the sin of the Nicolations idea that Christ warned of in Revelation. Organizations like that only make themselves an easy target for Christ's enemies to infiltrate and take over. So they may have begun with true purpose in mind in Christian unity. But by that kind of agreement with Socialism in 1918, they began leaving their original purpose, showing infiltration by Christ's enemies and insertion of anti-Christian doctrine. World Socialism is the basis of the Communist movement, especially in that era of 1918 when the un-elected Socialist Col. Mandel House was President Woodrow Wilson's right-hand man in the White House. Their Socialist plan failed in America then too, because U.S. Congress REFUSED to join that League of Nations Socialist organization at their leading. Many Church organizations in the U.S had been on the World Socialist boat for quite a while by 1918.

Of course they did that then. What had just happened then in that era? WWII, nuclear weapons. That was the purpose of using such technology to end WWII, in order to usher the naitons into the atomic era. And that was designed to cause what upon the nations? To scare them with the idea of nuclear annilhilation, mutual destruction. That's what it took for the free nations like the U.S. to agree to signing the U.N. Charter after WWII. Don't you think it funny that one of the mottos of the earlier League of Nations World War I era was "the war to end all wars"? Can't you see the people and Congress didn't believe it then in 1918, but did believe after they were presented with World War II and later technology?

No, only CERTAIN Church organizations of men have that history. Not ALL Churches in America do, and that's where you're missing the point. Even the majority of peoples in those Churches in that Council you mention are far, far removed from those among them who meet behind closed doors and make up such proclamations.

No, the Catholic church alone is not Babylon the Great, just a segment of it. Even all the churches combined is only a "slice of the pie", for Babylon the Great incorporates all false religions, such as Buddhism, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, etc. Jesus established only one religion that is true, that is from Jehovah God.(Eph 4:5)

The churches are a product of apostasy, having distorted what the Bible really teaches. Of Protestant, these teach that God is a trinity, as well as "hellfire" and immortality of the soul. These have so many branches, such as Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Church of Christ, and the list goes on and on. The Church of Christ as well as the Episcopalian have accepted same-sex marriage, thus voiding Jesus words at Matthew 19:4-6.

Of the Protestant churches, these have engaged themselves in war just like the Catholic church, have committed atrocities "in the name of Christ" and has defiled herself even more than Catholicism.

This is prophetically seen at Ezekiel 23 as two sisters, Oholah and Oholibah, with Oholah picturing the ten-tribe northern kingdom of Israel and Oholibah picturing the two-tribe southern kingdom of Judah. Like Oholah and Oholibah, Christendom has committed spiritual adultery, a sin in the sight of the God she claims to worship. Protestantism, with her many denominations, has defiled herself with the commercial and political powers of the world even more so than her elder sister, Roman Catholicism, for Ezekiel 23:11 says: "When her sister Oholibah got to see it, then she exercised her sensual desire more ruinously than she, and her prostitution more than the fornication of her sister."

Beginning with the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E., Emperor Constantine fused the pagan Roman state religion with apostate Christianity and became the head of the new Catholic Church as Pontifex Maximus, high priest of the pagan religion of the empire. The Roman Catholic Church thus can trace its existence to the fourth century of our Common Era. Protestantism had its start in the Reformation of the 16th century.

Though an individual Protestant denomination may have less influence than the powerful Roman Catholic church, the many Protestant churches combined outstrip the one Catholic church in power and influence. For instance, Protestantism exerts great influence and prestige in certain prominent industrial countries, with many seeking political office, such as Obama and Romney.

Of the United States senate, 24% are Roman Catholic, 15% are Presbyterian, 13% is Jewish, 11% are Methodist, 10% are Baptists, 6% are Latter Day Saints, 4% are Episcopalian, 4% are Lutheran, 2% are Congregational, 2% are Non-Denominational Protestant, 2% are United Church of Christ, 1% Christian Reformed church, 1% Church of Christ, 1% Church of God, 1% Eastern Orthodox church, 1% McLean Bible church and 1% Unitarian Universalist.

Thus, both Protestantism and Catholicism have mingled and mixed in the political arena, despite Jesus words to be "no part of the world."(John 17:16) On the other hand, what is the history of Christians in the 1st century ? Edward Gibbon in his book The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, stated: "While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”(Vol. I, p. 416)

F. P. G. Guizot in his book The Great Events by Famous Historians, said: "The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” ) Hence, true Christians of the 1st century rejected any and all participation of both politics and the military, as Jesus commanded. On the other hand, the churches, both Protestant and Catholic have dove in the political arena, committing ' fornication with the kings of the earth.' (Rev 17:2)

Yes, the apostle Paul was "to bear (Jesus) name to the nations as well as kings."(Acts 9:15) This was to be a "witness" to them, for Jesus had told his apostles that "people will lay their hands upon you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, you being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name. It will turn out to you for a witness."(Luke 21:12) Paul never mingled with the political field, in fact telling the Corinthians: "For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband, that I might present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ."(2 Cor 11:2)

At Revelation 14:4, the 144,000 or bride of Christ, are seen as spiritual "virgins", avoiding spiritual adultery with worldly politics and with false religion.(James 4:4) As the betrothed bride of Christ, they have kept themselves pure, "without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation."(Phil 2:15)

And of the churches, an illustration is apropos, for though a robber is guilty of the crime, under law, the person driving the get-away car is seen as an accomplice, and subject to being prosecuted. Hence, anyone "touching the unclean thing" is as guilty in God's eyes as the person committing the actual act. That is why Jehovah God gives this warning: "Get out of her (the world empire of false religion), my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."(Rev 18:4)

 

[michaelvpardo]

At James 1:27, James wrote: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."(King James Bible) James used the Greek words threskeia (G2356) meaning "religious worship, religion" and kathara (G2513) meaning "clean, pure". Thus, the "pure religion" is the one that is "unspotted from the world", not being involved in any form or fashion with it.

If you were looking at a US dollar, how could it be determined if it was genuine or counterfeit ? By several distinguishing characteristics or security features, such the tiny interwoven blue and red thread, texture, clear, unbroken borders, an embedded security thread that, when held up to the light, has the denomination written out (such as "USA FIVE", "USA TEN"), or hold up a bill to a black light and and an authentic $5 bill will glow blue, the $10 bill glows orange, the $20 bill glows green, etc., these features distinguishing a genuine bill from one that is counterfeit.

Likewise of the "pure religion" or "true religion", it has distinguishing features that separates it from the "weeds" or counterfeit religions. It honors the God's name of Jehovah. Jesus taught his disciples to pray for God's name to he "hallowed" or sanctified at Matthew 6:9.

Have the churches honored God's name of Jehovah, teaching their members to pray for it ? No. Rather they have hid his name by supplanting Jehovah with "God" or "Lord", continuing a Jewish superstition that began in about the 2nd century C.E. Yet God's name of Jehovah is found at least 6,972 times in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament), and in which The Divine Name King James Bible has now placed it where it rightly belongs.

Moses sang in song moments after the waters of the Red Sea drown Pharaoh and his army: "My strength and my might is Jah (shortened form of Jehovah), since he serve for my salvation. This is my God, and I shall laud him; my father's God, and I shall raise him on high."(Ex 15:2) Have the churches lauded Jehovah' s name ? No. In fact, I never hear it from any church going members nor any "religious" person. Only from Jehovah's Witnesses.

In order for people to "know Jehovah" from one end of the earth to the other end, and survive the coming "great tribulation" (Matt 24:21), these have to be taught. Did not John write down that a "great crowd" would pass through the "great tribulation" at Revelation 7:14 ? Are not these ones who have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb", rendering "sacred service" to God "day and night in his temple" ?(Rev 7:14, 15) Where did this "great crowd" come from ? And where did they learn to "know Jehovah" ?(Jer 31:34)

These have to be taught, just as Jesus said to his faithful disciples: "Go therefore and make disciples.....teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19, 20) Isaiah said: "Search for Jehovah, you people, while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near."(Isa 55:6) Those searching for Jehovah are given instructions of how to please him, such as beating their "swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears" (Isa 2:2-4) before the "great tribulation", for these must be pleasing God before it breaks forth in order to pass through it.

Have the churches taught their members to "know Jehovah", teaching them how to ' learn war no more ', to become "peacemakers" ?(Matt 5:9, King James Bible) Have they taught their members how to be "no part of the world" that Jesus said would identify his genuine disciples (John 15:19), not mingling or mixing with the political arena nor other aspects of the "world", not even giving either mental or a hand of support by casting votes (or even recommending) for their particular candidate ?(Rev 13:16)

Here are ten identifying marks of the "pure religion":

(1) Those who practice it have genuine love among themselves.(John 13:34,35; 1 John 4:8)

(2) All their beliefs are based on the Bible.(John 17:17; 2 Tim 3:16,17)

(3) They pray for God's name of Jehovah to be hallowed or sanctified. (Matt 6:9; Ps 83:18)

(4) They proclaim God's kingdom in all the earth, not some political or social philosophy.(Matt 24:14; Acts 28:23)

(5) They keep separate from the world's affairs, untainted by the world's politics or conflicts, remaining neutral in time of war.(James 1:27; John 17:14)

(6) They put God's kingdom and his righteousness first in their lives.(Matt 6:33)

(7) They cultivate the fruitage of God's spirit, not condoning war or personal violence.(Gal 5:22,23; Rom 12:17-21)

(8) They obey all human laws not contrary to God's law.(Rom 13:1-7)

(9) The true religion successfully unites people of every race, language, and tribe. It does not preach nationalism or hatred, but love worldwide.(Isaiah 2:2-4; Col 3:10,11)

(10) The true religion teaches the truth regarding God's purpose for man and the earth.(Matt 5:5; Ps 115:16; Isaiah 45:18)



No, the Catholic church alone is not Babylon the Great, just a segment of it. Even all the churches combined is only a "slice of the pie", for Babylon the Great incorporates all false religions, such as Buddhism, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, etc. Jesus established only one religion that is true, that is from Jehovah God.(Eph 4:5)

The churches are a product of apostasy, having distorted what the Bible really teaches. Of Protestant, these teach that God is a trinity, as well as "hellfire" and immortality of the soul. These have so many branches, such as Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Church of Christ, and the list goes on and on. The Church of Christ as well as the Episcopalian have accepted same-sex marriage, thus voiding Jesus words at Matthew 19:4-6.

Of the Protestant churches, these have engaged themselves in war just like the Catholic church, have committed atrocities "in the name of Christ" and has defiled herself even more than Catholicism.

This is prophetically seen at Ezekiel 23 as two sisters, Oholah and Oholibah, with Oholah picturing the ten-tribe northern kingdom of Israel and Oholibah picturing the two-tribe southern kingdom of Judah. Like Oholah and Oholibah, Christendom has committed spiritual adultery, a sin in the sight of the God she claims to worship. Protestantism, with her many denominations, has defiled herself with the commercial and political powers of the world even more so than her elder sister, Roman Catholicism, for Ezekiel 23:11 says: "When her sister Oholibah got to see it, then she exercised her sensual desire more ruinously than she, and her prostitution more than the fornication of her sister."

Beginning with the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E., Emperor Constantine fused the pagan Roman state religion with apostate Christianity and became the head of the new Catholic Church as Pontifex Maximus, high priest of the pagan religion of the empire. The Roman Catholic Church thus can trace its existence to the fourth century of our Common Era. Protestantism had its start in the Reformation of the 16th century.

Though an individual Protestant denomination may have less influence than the powerful Roman Catholic church, the many Protestant churches combined outstrip the one Catholic church in power and influence. For instance, Protestantism exerts great influence and prestige in certain prominent industrial countries, with many seeking political office, such as Obama and Romney.

Of the United States senate, 24% are Roman Catholic, 15% are Presbyterian, 13% is Jewish, 11% are Methodist, 10% are Baptists, 6% are Latter Day Saints, 4% are Episcopalian, 4% are Lutheran, 2% are Congregational, 2% are Non-Denominational Protestant, 2% are United Church of Christ, 1% Christian Reformed church, 1% Church of Christ, 1% Church of God, 1% Eastern Orthodox church, 1% McLean Bible church and 1% Unitarian Universalist.

Thus, both Protestantism and Catholicism have mingled and mixed in the political arena, despite Jesus words to be "no part of the world."(John 17:16) On the other hand, what is the history of Christians in the 1st century ? Edward Gibbon in his book The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, stated: "While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”(Vol. I, p. 416)

F. P. G. Guizot in his book The Great Events by Famous Historians, said: "The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” ) Hence, true Christians of the 1st century rejected any and all participation of both politics and the military, as Jesus commanded. On the other hand, the churches, both Protestant and Catholic have dove in the political arena, committing ' fornication with the kings of the earth.' (Rev 17:2)

Yes, the apostle Paul was "to bear (Jesus) name to the nations as well as kings."(Acts 9:15) This was to be a "witness" to them, for Jesus had told his apostles that "people will lay their hands upon you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, you being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name. It will turn out to you for a witness."(Luke 21:12) Paul never mingled with the political field, in fact telling the Corinthians: "For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband, that I might present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ."(2 Cor 11:2)

At Revelation 14:4, the 144,000 or bride of Christ, are seen as spiritual "virgins", avoiding spiritual adultery with worldly politics and with false religion.(James 4:4) As the betrothed bride of Christ, they have kept themselves pure, "without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation."(Phil 2:15)

And of the churches, an illustration is apropos, for though a robber is guilty of the crime, under law, the person driving the get-away car is seen as an accomplice, and subject to being prosecuted. Hence, anyone "touching the unclean thing" is as guilty in God's eyes as the person committing the actual act. That is why Jehovah God gives this warning: "Get out of her (the world empire of false religion), my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."(Rev 18:4)

I'm curious, have you noticed the verse that says that Jesus was given the name above all names, or does the version of scripture that you use say "above all other names?"

Religion will kill you, but when it comes to Jesus: [sup] [/sup]let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. [sup]11 [/sup]This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’[sup][a][/sup] [sup]12 [/sup]Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12

 

[John_8:32]

The Babylon harlot of Revelation 17 is the "great city" mentioned there, NOT the "churches of Christendom" like you are implying.

What you are implying against Christ's Church on earth is a working of the "spirit of antichrist".

NOTHING can destroy Christ's Church, the difference is that those who fall away from it are 'cut off', pruned.

Ever hear of Vatican City? It is not only the HQ of the Universal Church, it is an independant country and even sends ambassadors to other nations.

 

[veteran]

No, the Catholic church alone is not Babylon the Great, just a segment of it. Even all the churches combined is only a "slice of the pie", for Babylon the Great incorporates all false religions, such as Buddhism, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, etc. Jesus established only one religion that is true, that is from Jehovah God.(Eph 4:5)

There's man's religion, and then there's the Truth. They often are not the same, and God showed us that in His Word.

The churches are a product of apostasy, having distorted what the Bible really teaches. Of Protestant, these teach that God is a trinity, as well as "hellfire" and immortality of the soul. These have so many branches, such as Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Church of Christ, and the list goes on and on. The Church of Christ as well as the Episcopalian have accepted same-sex marriage, thus voiding Jesus words at Matthew 19:4-6.

The Churches on earth are NOT a product of apostasy. That's another one of those subversive ideas you've gotten from somewhere outside Christ's Church. Congregations of believers make up the Churches on earth today, and they together make up Christ's Church of The Spirit for those of them who stay in Christ Jesus. Those of them that fall away from Christ will be cut off unless they repent to Him. Christ revealed this in His 7 Messages to the Churches in Asia in Rev.2 & 3. He did not rebuke all members in the Churches that had problems in them. For those who were not guilty, He even told them to hold fast to what they had until He comes. But YOUR speech condemns them all in totto, which is SUBVERSIVE speech against Christ's Church in general, a working no true Christian should have.

Of the Protestant churches, these have engaged themselves in war just like the Catholic church, have committed atrocities "in the name of Christ" and has defiled herself even more than Catholicism.

And Israel did not, and does not today? Why did God Himself say that He is "a man of war"?

Exod 15:2-3
2 The LORD is my strength and song, and He is become my salvation: He is my God, and I will prepare Him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt Him.
3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is His name.
(KJV)

Will YOU judge The LORD (Yehovah) Himself too now for making war??

It's becoming clearer which side of the fence you're coming from now. It's called Leftist Socialism which is allied with World Communism. Are you a Communist? If not, do you have any problem with their Communist philosophy and goals for the world?

Ever hear of Vatican City? It is not only the HQ of the Universal Church, it is an independant country and even sends ambassadors to other nations.

I well know about Vatican City and its location. That proves nothing, because the prophetic parameters in Revelation is what one must abide by if they want the Truth. Political wanderings won't get it done.

 

[revturmoil]

The churches of Christendom are among those who are the "children" of the "mother of the harlots, Babylon the Great". Jesus expected the true religion that he established to become apostate or "fall away" from his teachings, by giving an illustration of this at Matthew 13.

I don't think there's one person on this forum who understands what apostasy really is. The so called "apostate church" has nothing to do with the harlot. It has nothing to do with a backslidden church or being a lukewarm Christian, and nothing to do with heresy or false Christian teachings.
The Arab world is now radicalizing and is now in the apostasy prophecied in 2 Thes. 2:3. The man of sin will soon be revealed and the ten nation Islamic empire of the beast will soon follow.

 

[Saint]

Apostasy is just what it says; a falling away from ones faith in Yeshua and love for Yahweh. If it didn't involve falling away from faith the word would be meaningless in relationship to Yeshua.

Apostasy (

/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστaσίa (apostasia), 'a defection or revolt', from ἀπό, apo, 'away, apart', στάσις, stasis, 'stand, 'standing') is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatises) is known as an apostate. The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.

However I do agree that Islam will be one of the major factors that causes the weak to give up their faith; when threatened they will say where is our protection or escape. Only those who truly love Yahweh and trust in Him fully will stand true.

I was just reading the promise of Yahweh for those who are in a covenant relationship with Him; a covenant based on the blood of Yeshua and it is so uplifting...

For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day, nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor the destruction that wastes at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. You will only look with your eyes and see the recompense of the wicked. Because you have made the LORD your dwelling place— the Most High, who is my refuge—no evil shall be allowed to befall you, no plague come near your tent. For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways. On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone. You will tread on the lion and the adder; the young lion and the serpent you will trample underfoot. "Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name.
(Psa 91:3-14 ESV)


In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[revturmoil]

Apostasy is just what it says; a falling away from ones faith in Yeshua and love for Yahweh. If it didn't involve falling away from faith the word would be meaningless in relationship to Yeshua.

Read the verse and the definition again.

Actually, "falling away" is a very poor translation of the word 'apostasia'.

The word is found twice in the NT. Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3

In the New Testament it has nothing to do with your love for Yeshua. It has all to do with the man of sin.
Apostasy is also described in the old testament with Esau and Ishmael. They opposed and abandoned the true God of Israel and went into other directions.

Read 2 Thes. 2:3 and explain to me how Yeshua is involved. It involves the man of sin and not Yeshua! There's no indication in the passage that it involves a falling away from faith in Yeshua.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 　¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 　Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In Acts 21:21 we get a better understanding of the word. Paul exhorts the Jews to forsake the law. Look at the definition. It means to 'abandon' and renounce your religion regardless of what religion it is. It also means to go from one thing to another. If I'm an apostate Christian I must abandon Christianity and accept another religion. An apostate Muslim is one who leaves Islam and converts to another religion or no religion at all. It is a revolt and a rebellion and that's the condition the Arab/Muslim world is currently in.

Acts 21:21 　And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Here Paul exhorts the Jews to abandon (forsake) the law of Moses and accept the new covenant. Apostasy carries the connotation of "going from one thing to another." . It indicates a movement from one thing to another. You can't remain in the same religion and be an apostate. That's contradictory to the correct definition of the word.

It's the word 'forsake' and comes from a word meaning a divorce.

If the falling away from faith in Yeshua is the apostasy, why would a defection from faith even 'within the church' create the conditions that would reveal the man of sin and cause people to accept him? What makes some people think that the apostasy or the man of sin will come within the church?
Apostasy can be a political or religious revolt
The Muslim's and the secular world actually have the correct definition of apostasy and the church does not. Protestant's have their own definition and it's incorrect. I blame that on the false teachings of the high profile prophecy experts.

Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when it's ruler or king called for one. And it was always to change the "national religion."

Here is what Baker say's.

Bakers dictionary of theology

Apostasy

A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenism (1 Macc 2:15)

In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy.

In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Notice how the following apostates have gone from one rligion to another.

Noted apostates

This is a list of notable persons that have followed a religion and then publicly abandoned or publicly criticized it and attracted notable attention by this defection, or had a notable influence on society with their defection; or if the person has been notably been referred to as an apostate by other groups or people regardless whether the person accepts this label or not.

Ambedkar an ex-Hindu who became a Buddhist

Karen Armstrong ex-Roman Catholic nun who became an atheist

Julian the Apostate ex-Christian and Roman emperor

Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) Former adherent of Manicheism who converted to Christianity and criticized Manicheism in his book called Confessions, though generally not labelled as an apostate because the term is originally used for people who leave Christianity, not for people who convert to it

Marjoe Gortner ex-Christian

Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim

Maria Monk Sometimes considered an apostate, though little evidence exists that she ever belonged to the religion she supposedly fled

Taslima Nasrin born in a Muslim family who became an atheist

Friedrich Nietzsche grew up in a Lutheran family and became a confirmed Christian in his teens but later became a staunch atheist

Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses

Baruch Spinoza excommunicated from the Jewish community

Ibn Warraq ex-Muslim
_______________________________________________________________________

I would like to add Walid Shoebat. A former Muslim and Palestinian terrorist converted to Christianity.

THAT'S WHY I SAID, "I don't think there's one person on this forum who understands what apostasy really is."

　

 

[Saint]

kaoticprofit, do the following two verses amount to apostasy?

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6 ESV)

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:29 ESV)

While I agree that the rejection of anyone's faith from any religion amounts to apostasy in my opinion the only apostasy we are discussing here is the rejection of the Holy Spirit; any other kind of apostasy is irrelevant as it relates to Gods word.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[revturmoil]

kaoticprofit, do the following two verses amount to apostasy?

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6 ESV)

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:29 ESV)


In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

For one thing the word impossible is a poor translation of the word 'adynatos'. A better translation of it is "without strength."

While I agree that the rejection of anyone's faith from any religion amounts to apostasy in my opinion the only apostasy we are discussing here is the rejection of the Holy Spirit; any other kind of apostasy is irrelevant as it relates to Gods word.

Well then this discussion isn't biblical. The context and the corerct definition of the word doesn't indicate anything you said above. That's what the church would like you to believe but it's not the true. Look at the text. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, the church, losing faith in Yeshua, backsliding, being lukewarm, or heresy.

If you think it does you are misleading yourself.
One part of a good hermeneutic is to see how the word is used elsewhere. Paul used the word apostasy (forsake) to exhort the Jews to abandon the law and accept the new covenant.
I know the church teaches what you believe but I don't fall for it.
To answer your question.
NO! The verses you posted do not amount to apostasy. They amount to being backsliden, being lukewarm, or heresy.

 

[aspen]

America is no more and no less Babylon than all other governments on the face of the Earth and across history. I fail to see how singling out a country that has only existed for a little over 200 years is meaningfull. We are called to reject Worldliness - America plays a role in Worldliness and should be recognized and considered as part of humanities rebellion against God. Treat with caution. Do not place your hope in America and do not be surprised when our country follows the path of all nations before it.

This is not good or bad - it is just reality. Christ is our hope, not the world.

America is no more and no less Babylon than all other governments on the face of the Earth and across history. I fail to see how singling out a country that has only existed for a little over 200 years is meaningfull. We are called to reject Worldliness - America plays a role in Worldliness and should be recognized and considered as part of humanities rebellion against God. Treat with caution. Do not place your hope in America and do not be surprised when our country follows the path of all nations before it.

This is not good or bad - it is just reality. Christ is our hope, not the world.

 

[veteran]

While I agree that the rejection of anyone's faith from any religion amounts to apostasy in my opinion the only apostasy we are discussing here is the rejection of the Holy Spirit; any other kind of apostasy is irrelevant as it relates to Gods word.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

That really is the point, but Paul did give that apostasia idea in 2 Thess.2 in relation to a false one coming to sit in the temple of God to show himself as God, and exalt himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped. So the 2 Thess 2 apostasy idea is linked specifically to that coming false one, i.e., the Antichrist.

 

[Warrior]

Babylon is the Illuminati.....That's why its called secret hidden place. It's the secret evil Society that runs the world these days

 

[tgwprophet]

I guess it would be very easy to claim the country one is closest to is Babylon, especially since one would better knpw the evil lurking inside its corrupt government. This, of course would not make that country Babylon. Then their are those that through propaganda or other methods believe their country actually is what that govenment claims. This type of perspective is often compounded when one receives their employment form that country. To locate the true Babylon we would need to examinee all the possibilities from the same perspective then align that with scripture, then and only then could we hope to obtain discovery. With this understanding I will try to remain open minded as to Babylon,.

Remember; the correct resolves we obtain will be the most difficult discoveries of our lives.

 

[revturmoil]

I guess it would be very easy to claim the country one is closest to is Babylon, especially since one would better knpw the evil lurking inside its corrupt government. This, of course would not make that country Babylon. Then their are those that through propaganda or other methods believe their country actually is what that govenment claims. This type of perspective is often compounded when one receives their employment form that country. To locate the true Babylon we would need to examinee all the possibilities from the same perspective then align that with scripture, then and only then could we hope to obtain discovery. With this understanding I will try to remain open minded as to Babylon,.

Remember; the correct resolves we obtain will be the most difficult discoveries of our lives.

Babylon is Babylon and people who think it's anything else are misled. It's not brain surgury to figure that out in fact it's very elementary.

 

[Trekson]

Only those who cling to their eschatology in desperation see something of physical Babylon which bears absolute zero resemblance to the way biblical Babylon is described.

 

[revturmoil]

The dominate religion of the area of Babylon today is Islam. Like I said. It's not brain surgery it's actually very elementary.

This is every verse where Babylon is found in the New Testament.

So EXPLAIN!

Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
1Pe 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
There's only one literal Babylon. It's not the USA, Rome, Europe, or a united coalition of nations or religions. The only thing Babylon can be symbolic of is false religion.

 

[Trekson]

Your words:
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
1Pe 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.

THE ABOVE VERSES ARE LITERAL BABYLON, THE ONES BELOW ARE NOT, THE NAME BABYLON IS JUST SYMBOLIC FOR A "POLITICAL" LEADING NATION, FALSE RELIGION IS NOT DESCRIBED HERE AT ALL. THE FORNICATION IS SIMPLY THE ABSENCE OF THE RECOGNITION OF GOD!

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
There's only one literal Babylon. It's not the USA, Rome, Europe, or a united coalition of nations or religions. The only thing Babylon can be symbolic of is false religion.

 

[revturmoil]

Your words:
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
1Pe 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.

THE ABOVE VERSES ARE LITERAL BABYLON, THE ONES BELOW ARE NOT, THE NAME BABYLON IS JUST SYMBOLIC FOR A "POLITICAL" LEADING NATION, FALSE RELIGION IS NOT DESCRIBED HERE AT ALL. THE FORNICATION IS SIMPLY THE ABSENCE OF THE RECOGNITION OF GOD!

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
There's only one literal Babylon. It's not the USA, Rome, Europe, or a united coalition of nations or religions. The only thing Babylon can be symbolic of is false religion.

Thanks for the detailed explanation!

You said,

THE NAME BABYLON IS JUST SYMBOLIC FOR A "POLITICAL" LEADING NATION, FALSE RELIGION IS NOT DESCRIBED HERE AT ALL. THE FORNICATION IS SIMPLY THE ABSENCE OF THE RECOGNITION OF GOD!

REALLY?

In Rev. 17:6 the harlot of Babylon murders believers. So does the US today murder Christian's and Jews who believe in Christ?
Only the jihadist murder them today!
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In Rev. 18:2 Babylon is fallen and becomes the habitation of devils and unclean spirits. Does that mean that the U.S. is their abode?

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
There is no religion on earth today that has more devils and unclean spirits or is more evil than Islam.

How can this be America?
Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Jeremiah 50:10-12 says Babylon is in the wilderness and in a desert. The U.S. isn't in the wilderness or a desert. Mecca, Medina, and Saudi Arabia is!

Jer 50:10 And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.
Jer 50:11 ¶ Because ye were glad, because ye rejoiced, O ye destroyers of mine heritage, because ye are grown fat as the heifer at grass, and bellow as bulls;

Jer 50:12 Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations [shall be] a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.
Jer 50:13 Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

In Rev.17:3 John is carried away into the wilderness better translated as 'desert' to be shown the judgement of the great whore. America isn't in a desert!
Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The metaphor of fornication is to permit oneself to be drawn away by another into idolatry. Did you know that Muslim's face the east and bow toward a black rock in Mecca 5 times a day?
The harlot has commited fornication with the kings of the earth by jihad. The kings of the earth have commited fornication with the harlot by trading with jihadist nations. The harlot promisses the jihadist who murder of infidels up to 70 virgins in paradise. Get it?
I could turn this into a lengthy reply but it would be a waste of my time. I really doubt you would ever change your mind.

 

[tgwprophet]

Actual babylon was located roughly 70 miles ( roughly) from Bagdad. Currently Babylon remains in ruins though I have heard rumors there may be an attempt to re-build it. However Scripture does reference other place(s) like unto Babylon as thjough its acual and ancient physical location is not all that important. With that.. I will retain an open mind at this time. this does not mean that I refuse your understanding, but does mean it is just not that elementary.

 

[Trekson]

Kaotic,
Your words: “How can this be America?
Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Wrong question to ask. The correct question to ask is How could this Babylon become the Babylon the great “city” that rules over the whole earth? Rev.17:18

Your words: “Jeremiah 50:10-12 says Babylon is in the wilderness and in a desert. The U.S. isn't in the wilderness or a desert. Mecca, Medina, and Saudi Arabia is!”

It’s not the same Babylon but remember your description. Literal Babylon is a desert wasteland NOW! As the OP says, America isn’t Babylon, yet, but will become “that” Babylon in the near future. The killing of Christians, prophets, etc. is future not history within the context of Rev. 17.

　
Your words: “In Rev.17:3 John is carried away into the wilderness better translated as 'desert' to be shown the judgement of the great whore. America isn't in a desert!”

The implication here is that in the wilderness John was shown a vision, not that Babylon was in the wilderness! Remember when Christ was in the wilderness for forty days and nights and satan showed Him all the kingdoms of the world. Did that mean that all those kingdoms were in the same wilderness? Of course not!

One final thing. In Rev. 18:19 after her judgment she is made desolate. Literal Babylon is “desolate” already.