An Opinion about rituals "in religions

[epostle1]

***

But the RCC had people put to death because they did not believe in the RCC doctrines. That is a historical fact.

I've asked for evidence at least 4 times now. Produce some and stop pontificating lies. What you call "historical fact" is historical propaganda and you guys have been getting away with it for 500 years. Prove to me you are not brainwashed with this nonsense and produce some evidence.

 

[H. Richard]

I've asked for evidence at least 4 times now. Produce some and stop pontificating lies. What you call "historical fact" is historical propaganda and you guys have been getting away with it for 500 years. Prove to me you are not brainwashed with this nonsense and produce some evidence.

***

Your evidence is man made propaganda too. It whitewashes the fact of the abuses of the RCC. The WORLD BOOK ENCYCLOPEDIA has this and I know you will call it wrong.

"Inquisition was an effort by the RCC to seek out and punish heretics (PERSONS WHO OPPOSED CHURCH TEACHINGS). They took place in many parts of Europe." This is the introduction of the write up and I believe it is saying the truth. I would type the rest but I know it would not make any difference since you are totally ingrained with the RCC dogma.

 

[H. Richard]

That is a lie from the pit of hell.

False. We know by moral certitude, not by faith alone. This is hate speech, unbecoming of anyone claiming to be a Christian. Do Catholics slander you?

You are an expert in anti-Catholic bigotry and lies, but you are no expert in Catholicism.
Your funnymentalist lies are boring.
/QUOTE]

Then stop reading them.

 

[aspen]

I retract. We are not always civil because you guys are so irritating. Our patience is pushed beyond human limits and you do it on purpose. Every document and teaching is taken out of context, including the Early Church Fathers, which you generally avoid anyway. You have no concept of development, which I have briefly begun to explain, but most irritating of all is denial of historical facts, such as bible origins.

Did your religious reformist churches have people killed because of their refusal to accept the reformist doctrines, Yes or NO?
Stick to the subject.

One more thing that is very frustrating when dealing with hostile anti-Catholics- excessive pride where they refuse to be corrected, they stick to useless outdated attitudes.

[/QUOTE]

So.....why do you take it personally? God gives us the grace to form opinions......none are 100% correct - I would be surprised if any were remotely correct.

I do not take it personally if my dog has an accident on the floor - he is a dog. How much more long suffering is God regarding our crap?

 

[mjrhealth]

And no, I am not a former JW or anything else, I do not do 'church.' as you would understand it. I'm being very sincere with you because I really care about your views. I used to be a Catholic as part of my mandatory religious duty many years ago. I used to be an altar boy, a choir boy...the nuns' pet etc... Unfortunately these things and these good folks never introduced me to Christ, in a personal way.

Yep few of us bin there done that, thank God for His Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

When a person, or religious organization, keeps inventing sacraments, then it is they're keeping of the sacraments they have faith in, not Christ. Otherwise, why keep those invented sacraments?

And when one goes to a confessional and tells a "priest" about their sins, then it is their going to the confessional and doing the confession ritual and penance that they have faith in, not Christ. Otherwise, why not go directly to God, from within the heart, through Christ for the forgiveness of sins as Christ taught?

Christ never taught anything about ritualistic sacraments, or going to confessionals. He taught faith. It is only the flesh, seeking to feel it has earned its spiritual relationship with God that comes up with the formulation "these are the things I do because of faith." Christ's teaching was that faith is not about man "doing." It is faith in what God has, and will, do.

Just so that everyone knows I'm not singling out the Catholics, it would be entirely possible to write exactly what I just wrote, only substituting the ritual and legalism details of any protestant denomination for the mass/ritualistic sacraments/confessional part, and the doctrinal point would be just as valid.

Christ did indeed teach that salvation and relationship with God is based on faith and only faith.

It is the Catholic Church that invented all the nonsense about Mary being a lifelong virgin, and that one prays to her to get healing, favors, and whatever. And it is the Catholic Church, which elects "saints", and says you can pray to them for special favors; isn't it? I don't remember Christ teaching anything about praying to Mary or "saints". And it is the catholic church that teaches that you can't be forgiven for sins without coming to its confessional booth, telling your sins to someone it calls a "priest" and doing whatever penance that "priest" tells them to do; right? That is the Catholic Church, isn't it? Or is the church that does all that stuff some other church and I just got confused for a second? This isn't a stereotype, it is just fact. Is the Catholic Church now teaching that one simply goes to God in personal prayer about sin and is forgiven based on the perfection and efficacy of Christ's work on the cross? If that's what they're teaching these days it would be the first I've heard about it.

If the rituals, ceremonies, legalisms, and taboos the Catholic Church started inventing in the middle of the first millennium are just a natural outgrowth of Christ's teaching (the expression of faith, if you will) then why would not the rituals and ceremonies and taboos and legalisms of any other church be the same? For instance, the day of Pentecost was shortly after Christ's death and resurrection and we are told people were speaking in tongues, etc. So why would it not be valid for Pentecostal churches to say: well, what we do goes all the way back to the days of Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, so when we "speak in tongues" it is simply a natural outgrowth of Christ's ministry and what early Christians did. Therefore, you can't be saved or have a relationship with God unless you join our church and do this "speaking in tongues" thing.

There are many thing wrong and perverted in this post that it is difficult to know where to begin. And you don't have to hide behind your disclaimer above in RED. You know very well that this is an attack on the Catholic Church as are some of your other posts.

I'll start with Confession and in other posts, I'll continue with the other rubbish because of text character constraints.

First of all - Only GOD has the power to forgive sins.
This power, however, was transferred to the Apostles on the night of Jesus' Resurrection.
John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

The practice of confessing your sins to the Church is an ancient one that goes all the way back to the Apostles themselves. We see this in the 1st century document, the Didache (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles), where it emphatically states the necessity of confessing our sins to the Church:
“Confess your sins in Church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14,14:1 [A.D.70]).

St. Paul makes no small case for this ministry of reconciliation in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed WHAT I HAVE FORGIVEN, if I have forgiven anything, has been FOR YOU in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that he was forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

People USED to confess their sins in public. the Church in its wisdom and God-given Authority changed that practice to private confession. People are usually more forthcoming in a private confession than in a public situation and won't hold back.
The Early Church Fathers attested to this practice and to the fact that the Church was given Authority by Jesus Himself to forgive sins in his name.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is the Catholic Church that invented all the nonsense about Mary being a lifelong virgin, and that one prays to her to get healing, favors, and whatever. And it is the Catholic Church, which elects "saints", and says you can pray to them for special favors; isn't it? I don't remember Christ teaching anything about praying to Mary or "saints".

Really??
More nonsense from a person who is totally ignorant of what the Church teaches . . .

First of all - The bible NEVER says that Mary had other children. It only speaks of the "Adelphoi" of Jesus. The Greek word "Adelphos and all of its variations is used in the NT a whopping 344 times.
Of those occurrences:
Cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling: 41 (12%)
Cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling: 47 (14%)
Cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does NOT refer to a family sibling: 256 (74%)

Adelphos is used for uterine sibling, half brother, step brother, cousin, uncle, fellow Christian, fellow countryman, neighbor - at LEAST 74% of the time in the NT. Not ONE single vers in the NT indicates that Mary gave birth to ANYBODY other than Jesus. In fact - not ONE single extrabiblical or apocryphal work ever mentions this fallacy.

The idea that she had other children is a Protestant invention but NOT a belief of the historic Christian faith for 1500 years PRIOR to the Protestant Revolt. The onus is on YOU to provide proof of this if you're going to make this false claim.

As for asking Mary or the other saints in Heaven for "favors" and "healing" - this is another LIE of your own invention.
Our sole purpose for praying to a saint in Heaven is to pray FOR us to God as we would ask ANY other Christian to do here oi earth. Those in Heaven are every bit as much a part of the Body of Christ as Christians here on earth.

According to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary - the Word "Pray" simply means to ASK, to ENTREAT, to make a REQUEST, to SUPPLICATE.
"Worship" is a secondary definition.

And it is the catholic church that teaches that you can't be forgiven for sins without coming to its confessional booth, telling your sins to someone it calls a "priest" and doing whatever penance that "priest" tells them to do; right? That is the Catholic Church, isn't it? Or is the church that does all that stuff some other church and I just got confused for a second? This isn't a stereotype, it is just fact. Is the Catholic Church now teaching that one simply goes to God in personal prayer about sin and is forgiven based on the perfection and efficacy of Christ's work on the cross? If that's what they're teaching these days it would be the first I've heard about it.

This is a complete and total fabrication on YOUR part which has absolutely ZERO basis in fact.

The Catholic Church does not teach and has NEVER taught that ALL sins must be confessed to a priest. Only those sins that cause spiritual death must be brought before the Church.
Sins come in TWO categories (1 John 5:16-17, James 2:10-11):
- Those that damage our relationship with God (Venial).
- Those that cause spiritual death and cut us off from God's grace (Mortal).

Your false claims are shameful.


To be continued . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Although most protestant denominations only practice the concept in part, the orthodox (or doctrinal) Christian concept is that all believers in Christ are priests with Jesus Christ as our intermediary with God. Forgiveness for our sins is based on Christ's work on the cross and our faith in Christ and his work. That is why (doctrinally speaking) we can approach God directly in our personal prayers. As for forgiveness of our sins we already have received forgiveness through the Blood of Jesus.

The Catholic Church, AND OTHERS, have taken this concept rooted in grace and turned it into a system called religion whereby humans earn forgiveness from God by going to a particular place (the confessional), "confessing" sins to someone whose business they are not and then performing some more works ("penance") to complete the business of earning God's forgiveness. The concept at the root of it all is that Christ's work on the cross was incomplete or a failure, and so we have to add our works to Christ's work to make them complete.

Pretty sure I already destroyed this nonsenes in post $66 . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am where I am now because of a volitional choice to respond to Christ's message of faith with faith. And I find that message of faith very comforting indeed: a relationship with, and justification and righteousness before, the God who created my soul based only on my faith in the savior he sent for me (and the guidance of God's own spirit thrown in at no extra charge whatsoever).

All this without having to work, work, work at rituals and taboo observance and magic worked by "saints" and the "virgin Mary" and all the rest of that nonsensical claptrap. Instead "doing" what Christ taught us to do; believe on the one whom God sent and rest and be relieved of our burdens of sin by God's grace.

(Nor any need to search and hunt and figure out and research which church hierarchy's claims to have "truth" or "validity")

I can't get more comfortable than that, and why anyone would choose the works route is beyond me (except I can understand their flesh screaming at them, "ok, so now what do I have to do?")

This is not rocket science. On the one hand you have Christ and Paul clearly teaching faith alone and on the other hand you have the Catholic Church teaching mass attendance, compulsory confession, worshipping Mary, the Lord's table sharing turned into a system of magic, "last rites" for salvation, and on and on. And various other churches teaching a relationship with God based on emotional ecstatic, moral purity of the flesh, ritual observance, etc.

It really doesn't seem like much of a choice to me, or is it anything that requires great academic diligence. I prefer Christ's message of faith.

End

I owe a great deal of thanks to a friend named "Don" (on Dave's Christian forum) for this article. His writing has given me much comfort and direction.

As for the rest of this ridiculously anti-Catholic OP - Jesus never preached a Gospel of "faith alone". That was Luther. The Gospel of Jesus centered on faith and OBEDIENCE of Faith - in which works were a vital and necessary component of faith.

Belief alone is NOT faith.
Belief + Works = Faith.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The RCC didn't teach that the bread became flesh and wine became His blood. Jesus taught that: Luke 22:19

Or are you saying that Jesus was Catholic?

Mary

Mary, you're misusing Scripture again.
The Lord was setting up a memorial.
It's Jewish tradition to do it because God taught to obey many memorials.
The Passover - Ex. 12:14
The storing of the manna Ex. 16:32
The stones of the Ephod Ex. 28:12
The fringes on the garments Nu. 15:39
The censers Nu, 16:40
The twelve stones from Jordan Jos. 4:7
Joshua's stone of memorial Jos. 24:27
The Lord's supper Lk. 22:19

There are more memorials as the Bible is full of ways his people are to do things "in remembrance" of Him.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

As for the rest of this ridiculously anti-Catholic OP - Jesus never preached a Gospel of "faith alone". That was Luther. The Gospel of Jesus centered on faith and OBEDIENCE of Faith - in which works were a vital and necessary component of faith.

Belief alone is NOT faith.
Belief + Works = Faith.

The works you speak of here is doing the work of God which is believing in the one he sent.
Going to the confessional does not count.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mary, you're misusing Scripture again.
The Lord was setting up a memorial.
It's Jewish tradition to do it because God taught to obey many memorials.
The Passover - Ex. 12:14
The storing of the manna Ex. 16:32
The stones of the Ephod Ex. 28:12
The fringes on the garments Nu. 15:39
The censers Nu, 16:40
The twelve stones from Jordan Jos. 4:7
Joshua's stone of memorial Jos. 24:27
The Lord's supper Lk. 22:19

There are more memorials as the Bible is full of ways his people are to do things "in remembrance" of Him.

And, according to Col. 2:17 - all of these things were just SHADOWS of what was to come.
The reality is Christ.

The Manna (bread) and Passover Lamb that was to be completely consumed is now that Lamb of God - OUR Paschal Lamb, which we consume in the Eucharist (bread).

Not that difficult to figure out . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The works you speak of here is doing the work of God which is believing in the one he sent.
Going to the confessional does not count.

Not according to Jesus:

John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sinsYOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

 

[aspen]

How about this superstitious use of bread in Protestant England in the 18th and 19th centuries:

The Worst Freelance Gig in History Was Being the Village Sin Eater

Anyone who cherrypicks through history in order to attribute superstition to Catholics, is in willful denial regarding human nature

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And, according to Col. 2:17 - all of these things were just SHADOWS of what was to come.
The reality is Christ.

The Manna (bread) and Passover Lamb that was to be completely consumed is now that Lamb of God - OUR Paschal Lamb, which we consume in the Eucharist (bread).

Not that difficult to figure out . . .

Do you really believe a creation of the creator, can pull him out of heaven anytime you want , put him into a round fake piece of bread, declare that this is really God, and then eat him?
That sounds like a satanic cult to me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Not according to Jesus:

John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sinsYOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

You write the verses and then misunderstand them.
Jesus was sending them. To do what?
Share the Gospel.
And with their church authority, as they receive Jesus, they can tell them that they are forgiven their sins, but if they don't receive Jesus, they are not forgiven their sins.
There are similar verses with the use of church authority.
After the Council of Jerusalem, they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.
Again in Hebrews 13:7; Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

These are all statements of church authority starting with Jesus.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, you're misusing Scripture again.
The Lord was setting up a memorial.
It's Jewish tradition to do it because God taught to obey many memorials.
The Passover - Ex. 12:14
The storing of the manna Ex. 16:32
The stones of the Ephod Ex. 28:12
The fringes on the garments Nu. 15:39
The censers Nu, 16:40
The twelve stones from Jordan Jos. 4:7
Joshua's stone of memorial Jos. 24:27
The Lord's supper Lk. 22:19

There are more memorials as the Bible is full of ways his people are to do things "in remembrance" of Him.

Thank you. We can't pretend the only thing he said was that it is a memorial to Him. I agree. It is a memorial. I never said it wasn't. I practice this memorial every Sunday. Do you?

In that same sentence he said THIS IS MY BODY/BLOOD. I agree with Jesus that it is His body and blood.

So in a nutshell I practice what he told me to practice and I believe Him when he says it is his body and blood. Do you?

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you really believe a creation of the creator, can pull him out of heaven anytime you want , put him into a round fake piece of bread, declare that this is really God, and then eat him?
That sounds like a satanic cult to me.

That's because of your lack of faith and Scriptural ignorance.

Let me ask YOU: Do you believe that an omnipresent God spoke and the universe leapt into existence - but He can't be present in the Eucharist??

Now THAT sounds pretty dense to me . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You write the verses and then misunderstand them.
Jesus was sending them. To do what?
Share the Gospel.
And with their church authority, as they receive Jesus, they can tell them that they are forgiven their sins, but if they don't receive Jesus, they are not forgiven their sins.
There are similar verses with the use of church authority.
After the Council of Jerusalem, they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.
Again in Hebrews 13:7; Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

These are all statements of church authority starting with Jesus.

Not good enough Rollo.
You completely ignored what Jesus was telling them

Jesus told them, "As the Father sent me, so I send YOU."
What did the Father send Him to do?? To bring about the FORGIVENESS of sins.

Explain THIS part:
"Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you. We can't pretend the only thing he said was that it is a memorial to Him. I agree. It is a memorial. I never said it wasn't. I practice this memorial every Sunday. Do you?

In that same sentence he said THIS IS MY BODY/BLOOD. I agree with Jesus that it is His body and blood.

So in a nutshell I practice what he told me to practice and I believe Him when he says it is his body and blood. Do you?

Mary

I believe he said (pointing at the bread and wine) to do this "In remembrance of me)
No one ever accused them of being cannibals because that's only a catholic fallacy