An Opinion about rituals "in religions

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tabletalk

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They did not go into the world. They were to start in the nation of Israel but they couldn't even get the Jews to believe. So how could they get the world to believe? Read the story Jesus told of the barren fig tree. They were to dig around the tree and see if it would bare fruit. They had about 40 years to get the job done but since they couldn't God destroyed their Temple and set them aside until the time of the Gentiles are completed.

From Luke:
Luke 22:19
And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

The RCC taught that the bread became the flesh of Jesus and the wine became His blood and if they did not eat and drink it they could not be saved. That made people think they would not be saved unless they believed in their church ritual and did it and therefore made their salvation based on something the Priest did. But the scriptures are clear that is was for REMEMBRANCE only.

But why are you getting your information from what Jesus said to the Jews who were under the law of Moses? Jesus, by His own words, told the 12 that he only came to the house of Israel? Don't you believe Him?
[/QUOTE]


You said " They did not go into the world."
But, they did. And it is still being accomplished.
 
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aspen

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We all put Jesus on the Cross........He was not murdered - he gave up his own life
 
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APAK

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When a person, or religious organization, keeps inventing sacraments, then it is they're keeping of the sacraments they have faith in, not Christ. Otherwise, why keep those invented sacraments?

And when one goes to a confessional and tells a "priest" about their sins, then it is their going to the confessional and doing the confession ritual and penance that they have faith in, not Christ. Otherwise, why not go directly to God, from within the heart, through Christ for the forgiveness of sins as Christ taught?

Christ never taught anything about ritualistic sacraments, or going to confessionals. He taught faith. It is only the flesh, seeking to feel it has earned its spiritual relationship with God that comes up with the formulation "these are the things I do because of faith." Christ's teaching was that faith is not about man "doing." It is faith in what God has, and will, do.

Just so that everyone knows I'm not singling out the Catholics, it would be entirely possible to write exactly what I just wrote, only substituting the ritual and legalism details of any protestant denomination for the mass/ritualistic sacraments/confessional part, and the doctrinal point would be just as valid.

Christ did indeed teach that salvation and relationship with God is based on faith and only faith.

It is the Catholic Church that invented all the nonsense about Mary being a lifelong virgin, and that one prays to her to get healing, favors, and whatever. And it is the Catholic Church, which elects "saints", and says you can pray to them for special favors; isn't it? I don't remember Christ teaching anything about praying to Mary or "saints". And it is the catholic church that teaches that you can't be forgiven for sins without coming to its confessional booth, telling your sins to someone it calls a "priest" and doing whatever penance that "priest" tells them to do; right? That is the Catholic Church, isn't it? Or is the church that does all that stuff some other church and I just got confused for a second? This isn't a stereotype, it is just fact. Is the Catholic Church now teaching that one simply goes to God in personal prayer about sin and is forgiven based on the perfection and efficacy of Christ's work on the cross? If that's what they're teaching these days it would be the first I've heard about it.

If the rituals, ceremonies, legalisms, and taboos the Catholic Church started inventing in the middle of the first millennium are just a natural outgrowth of Christ's teaching (the expression of faith, if you will) then why would not the rituals and ceremonies and taboos and legalisms of any other church be the same? For instance, the day of Pentecost was shortly after Christ's death and resurrection and we are told people were speaking in tongues, etc. So why would it not be valid for Pentecostal churches to say: well, what we do goes all the way back to the days of Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, so when we "speak in tongues" it is simply a natural outgrowth of Christ's ministry and what early Christians did. Therefore, you can't be saved or have a relationship with God unless you join our church and do this "speaking in tongues" thing.

Although most protestant denominations only practice the concept in part, the orthodox (or doctrinal) Christian concept is that all believers in Christ are priests with Jesus Christ as our intermediary with God. Forgiveness for our sins is based on Christ's work on the cross and our faith in Christ and his work. That is why (doctrinally speaking) we can approach God directly in our personal prayers. As for forgiveness of our sins we already have received forgiveness through the Blood of Jesus.

The Catholic Church, AND OTHERS, have taken this concept rooted in grace and turned it into a system called religion whereby humans earn forgiveness from God by going to a particular place (the confessional), "confessing" sins to someone whose business they are not and then performing some more works ("penance") to complete the business of earning God's forgiveness. The concept at the root of it all is that Christ's work on the cross was incomplete or a failure, and so we have to add our works to Christ's work to make them complete.

Nothing could be more out of keeping with the Christian doctrine Paul wrote, which teaches that Christ's work on the cross was complete, perfect and perfectly efficacious.

I will say this, instead of simply changing out a protestant system of works for a catholic system of works a person really should consider Christ's message of faith.

A person can reach the point of exasperation, trying to figure out the un-figurable (which church's or denominational system is the right system to please and impress God). But Christ's message of relationship with God through faith makes all the figuring unnecessary.

I appreciate and agree with the orientation of many posts: the intended grace nature of what the Catholic Church has termed "sacraments" and turned into empty rituals, the spiritual (rather than physical) nature of Christ's church, the idea of all religion as schemes for pleasing God with the energy of the flesh rather than faith, the concept of salvation through faith alone rather than a program of religious works, rituals and observing legalisms, taboos and "sacraments."

I understand that the antiquity of the traditions and rituals the Catholic Church has invented appeal to many, (at least more so than those traditions and rituals invented by the evangelical/fundamentalist protestant churches), but that is their choice. However, these things would come between Jesus and I.

Every church and denomination has "Jesus" and "faith" and "Christ" readily rolling off its collective tongue. But Christ taught that just because one says "Lord, Lord" that doesn't mean that they will have a relationship with God, but only those who do the will of God - and Christ taught that the will of God is his creations responding to him in faith.

I am where I am now because of a volitional choice to respond to Christ's message of faith with faith. And I find that message of faith very comforting indeed: a relationship with, and justification and righteousness before, the God who created my soul based only on my faith in the savior he sent for me (and the guidance of God's own spirit thrown in at no extra charge whatsoever).

All this without having to work, work, work at rituals and taboo observance and magic worked by "saints" and the "virgin Mary" and all the rest of that nonsensical claptrap. Instead "doing" what Christ taught us to do; believe on the one whom God sent and rest and be relieved of our burdens of sin by God's grace.

(Nor any need to search and hunt and figure out and research which church hierarchy's claims to have "truth" or "validity")

I can't get more comfortable than that, and why anyone would choose the works route is beyond me (except I can understand their flesh screaming at them, "ok, so now what do I have to do?")

This is not rocket science. On the one hand you have Christ and Paul clearly teaching faith alone and on the other hand you have the Catholic Church teaching mass attendance, compulsory confession, worshipping Mary, the Lord's table sharing turned into a system of magic, "last rites" for salvation, and on and on. And various other churches teaching a relationship with God based on emotional ecstatic, moral purity of the flesh, ritual observance, etc.

It really doesn't seem like much of a choice to me, or is it anything that requires great academic diligence. I prefer Christ's message of faith.

End

I owe a great deal of thanks to a friend named "Don" (on Dave's Christian forum) for this article. His writing has given me much comfort and direction.

HR:
The Catholics and its leaders believe in a religion of fear and intimidation, designed to discourage and even nullify any personal attempt to have a personal belief and genuine faith in Christ.

The Catholics themselves do not know if their own salvation is guaranteed. And because they have this great fear, they are determined to make all people believe as they do – stay in limbo, insecure and fearful of their souls.

They proceeded to devise an earthly kingdom based on many rituals, ceremonies and writings. These devices would be so confusing that any new layman or convert would eventually realize it was beyond their understanding, and therefore resigned themselves to the religious elite class for wisdom.

They are very similar to the Pharisees that teased and tickles the ears of the people selling them their way to heaven through its gates. When the people finally reached them in believing what they said, they were told that to enter through the gates they needed the key. The Pharisees preached that they were the keepers of the keys to heaven and even ‘hell.’ And for anyone seeking to enter heaven they must follow throughout their lives their teachings and religious traditions. Many people fell for this lie and ‘died.’

Jesus said their religion never got anyone into heaven.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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epostle1

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Christ didn’t abolish ritual — He perfected it.
The Incarnation was the event in salvation history that raised matter to previously unknown heights. All created matter was “good” from the start (Gen 1:25), but was “glorified” by the Incarnation.

Ritual and “physicality” were not abolished by the coming of Christ. Quite the contrary: it was the Incarnation that fully established sacramentalism as a principle in the Christian religion. The latter may be defined as the belief that matter can convey grace. It’s really that simple, at bottom, or in essence. God uses matter both to help us live better lives (sanctification) and to ultimately save us (regeneration and justification), starting with baptism itself.

The atonement or redemption of Christ (His death on the cross for us) was not purely “spiritual.” It was as physical (“sacramental,” if you will) as it could be, as well as spiritual. Protestants often piously refer to “the Blood of Jesus,” and rightly so (see Rev 5:9; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Jn 1:7; etc.). This is explicitly sacramental thinking.

Sacramentalism and the Bible

It was the very suffering of Jesus in the flesh, and the voluntary shedding of His own blood, which constituted the crucial, essential aspect of His work as our Redeemer and Savior. One can’t avoid this: “he was bruised for our iniquities” (Is 53:5).

So it is curious that many appear to possess a pronounced hostility to the sacramental belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, seeing that it flows so straightforwardly from the Incarnation and the Crucifixion itself. This brings to mind an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim disdain for the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way a majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist.

For them, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become a man (such a thought is blasphemous; unthinkable!). For many (not all) Protestants, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become substantially, physically, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. The dynamic or underlying premise is the same. If Christ could become man, He can surely will to be actually and truly present in what was formerly (and still looks like) ) bread and wine, once consecrated.

The New Testament is filled with incarnational and sacramental indications: instances of matter conveying grace. The Church is the “Body” of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30), and marriage (including its physical aspects) is described as a direct parallel to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33; esp. 29-32). Jesus even seems to literally equate Himself in some sense with the Church, saying He was “persecuted” by Paul, after the Resurrection (Acts 9:5).

Not only that; in St. Paul’s teaching, one can find a repeated theme of identifying very graphically and literally with Christ and His sufferings (see: 2 Cor 4:10; Phil 2:17; 3:10; 2 Tim 4:6; and above all, Col 1:24).

Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture: baptism confers regeneration (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; cf. Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5). Paul’s “handkerchiefs” healed the sick (Acts 19:12), as did even Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15), and of course, Jesus’ garment (Mt 9:20-22) and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff.; Mk 8:22-25), as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7).

Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14). We also observe in Scripture the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6) to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19; 13:3; 19:6), and for healing (Mk 6:5; Lk 13:13; Acts 9:17-18). Even under the old covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 13:21) — which is also one of the direct evidences for the Catholic practice of the veneration of relics (itself an extension of the sacramental principle).

Sacramentalism is a “product” of the Incarnation, just as the Church also is. But we must also understand that the sacraments are not “magic charms.” The Church also teaches that one should have the correct “interior disposition” when receiving them. Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ, the great catechist, wrote, in an entry on “Sacramental Dispositions”:
“Condition of soul required for the valid and/or fruitful reception of the sacraments. … In the recipient who has the use of reason is required merely that no obstacles be placed in the way. Such obstacles are a lack of faith or sanctifying grace or of a right intention.”(Modern Catholic Dictionary, Garden City, New York, Doubleday & Company, 1980, 477)

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in its section on ex opere operato (No. 1128), notes: “Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.”

The sacrament of the Eucharist, for example, will not have a positive effect or convey grace if received by a person in mortal sin (see 1 Cor 11:27-30; CCC #1415), and priestly absolution is null and void without the necessary prerequisite of true repentance.

This is all the more true of sacramentals (things like holy water, scapulars, blessings, miraculous medals, genuflection, etc.), which depend entirely on the inner state of the one using or receiving them. Intent, sincerity, motivation, piety, and suchlike are all supremely important in the Catholic life.

The scapular will not “work” for a person who neglects the pursuit of righteousness and obedience and views it as a “magic charm” (which is occultic superstition) rather than a Catholic sacramental. A piece of cloth cannot rescind the normal duties of the Catholic life. Nor is God some sort of celestial “vending machine.” He wants our hearts; he wants us — not meaningless outward obedience without the proper interior motivation, in love, and by His grace. Sacraments help us, but we must do our part, too.

Please stop bashing our faith with lies. It hurts.

[/QUOTE]
 

Josho

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Rituals when piled on top of Jesus's name, creates a religious brand of Christianity, it waters the message of the gospel down, it's not very inviting to the people in need of Salvation, it sends people out of the doors of the Church, it puts Christians to sleep spiritually and sometimes even physically. So put Jesus 1st, prioritise Jesus 1st, because it's all about Jesus, how he defeated death on that cross and gave any human who believes eternal life, how he paid for our sins with his precious blood. Jesus should be the centre of all Christian's faith. After all Jesus is the one who put Satan to misery, Jesus is the one who casted Satan to hell. Jesus is the one that creates, saves, heals, resurrects, gives spiritual gifts. So Jesus should be the centre of every born again Christian's faith and that's how you bring Church to life again, preach Jesus, talk Jesus, tell everyone what he has done. Don't put rituals before Jesus, but put Jesus 1st and ask the Holy Spirit to help you keep Jesus in mind in everything you do. ;)
 
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tabletalk

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We all put Jesus on the Cross........He was not murdered - he gave up his own life


He didn't commit suicide. He died by the hands of the Romans, for no offense against the Government. So, He was murdered.
 

APAK

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Rituals when piled on top of Jesus's name, creates a religious brand of Christianity, it waters the message of the gospel down, it's not very inviting to the people in need of Salvation, it sends people out of the doors of the Church, it puts Christians to sleep spiritually and sometimes even physically. So put Jesus 1st, prioritise Jesus 1st, because it's all about Jesus, how he defeated death on that cross and gave any human who believes eternal life, how he paid for our sins with his precious blood. Jesus should be the centre of all Christian's faith. After all Jesus is the one who put Satan to misery, Jesus is the one who casted Satan to hell. Jesus is the one that creates, saves, heals, resurrects, gives spiritual gifts. So Jesus should be the centre of every born again Christian's faith and that's how you bring Church to life again, preach Jesus, talk Jesus, tell everyone what he has done. Don't put rituals before Jesus, but put Jesus 1st and ask the Holy Spirit to help you keep Jesus in mind in everything you do. ;)

I really want to know if you really know these things, no bashing intended here.........
Christ didn’t abolish ritual — He perfected it.
The Incarnation was the event in salvation history that raised matter to previously unknown heights. All created matter was “good” from the start (Gen 1:25), but was “glorified” by the Incarnation.

Ritual and “physicality” were not abolished by the coming of Christ. Quite the contrary: it was the Incarnation that fully established sacramentalism as a principle in the Christian religion. The latter may be defined as the belief that matter can convey grace. It’s really that simple, at bottom, or in essence. God uses matter both to help us live better lives (sanctification) and to ultimately save us (regeneration and justification), starting with baptism itself.

The atonement or redemption of Christ (His death on the cross for us) was not purely “spiritual.” It was as physical (“sacramental,” if you will) as it could be, as well as spiritual. Protestants often piously refer to “the Blood of Jesus,” and rightly so (see Rev 5:9; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Jn 1:7; etc.). This is explicitly sacramental thinking.

Sacramentalism and the Bible

It was the very suffering of Jesus in the flesh, and the voluntary shedding of His own blood, which constituted the crucial, essential aspect of His work as our Redeemer and Savior. One can’t avoid this: “he was bruised for our iniquities” (Is 53:5).

So it is curious that many appear to possess a pronounced hostility to the sacramental belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, seeing that it flows so straightforwardly from the Incarnation and the Crucifixion itself. This brings to mind an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim disdain for the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way a majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist.

For them, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become a man (such a thought is blasphemous; unthinkable!). For many (not all) Protestants, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become substantially, physically, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. The dynamic or underlying premise is the same. If Christ could become man, He can surely will to be actually and truly present in what was formerly (and still looks like) ) bread and wine, once consecrated.

The New Testament is filled with incarnational and sacramental indications: instances of matter conveying grace. The Church is the “Body” of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30), and marriage (including its physical aspects) is described as a direct parallel to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33; esp. 29-32). Jesus even seems to literally equate Himself in some sense with the Church, saying He was “persecuted” by Paul, after the Resurrection (Acts 9:5).

Not only that; in St. Paul’s teaching, one can find a repeated theme of identifying very graphically and literally with Christ and His sufferings (see: 2 Cor 4:10; Phil 2:17; 3:10; 2 Tim 4:6; and above all, Col 1:24).

Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture: baptism confers regeneration (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; cf. Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5). Paul’s “handkerchiefs” healed the sick (Acts 19:12), as did even Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15), and of course, Jesus’ garment (Mt 9:20-22) and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff.; Mk 8:22-25), as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7).

Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14). We also observe in Scripture the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6) to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19; 13:3; 19:6), and for healing (Mk 6:5; Lk 13:13; Acts 9:17-18). Even under the old covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 13:21) — which is also one of the direct evidences for the Catholic practice of the veneration of relics (itself an extension of the sacramental principle).

Sacramentalism is a “product” of the Incarnation, just as the Church also is. But we must also understand that the sacraments are not “magic charms.” The Church also teaches that one should have the correct “interior disposition” when receiving them. Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ, the great catechist, wrote, in an entry on “Sacramental Dispositions”:
“Condition of soul required for the valid and/or fruitful reception of the sacraments. … In the recipient who has the use of reason is required merely that no obstacles be placed in the way. Such obstacles are a lack of faith or sanctifying grace or of a right intention.”(Modern Catholic Dictionary, Garden City, New York, Doubleday & Company, 1980, 477)

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in its section on ex opere operato (No. 1128), notes: “Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.”

The sacrament of the Eucharist, for example, will not have a positive effect or convey grace if received by a person in mortal sin (see 1 Cor 11:27-30; CCC #1415), and priestly absolution is null and void without the necessary prerequisite of true repentance.

This is all the more true of sacramentals (things like holy water, scapulars, blessings, miraculous medals, genuflection, etc.), which depend entirely on the inner state of the one using or receiving them. Intent, sincerity, motivation, piety, and suchlike are all supremely important in the Catholic life.

The scapular will not “work” for a person who neglects the pursuit of righteousness and obedience and views it as a “magic charm” (which is occultic superstition) rather than a Catholic sacramental. A piece of cloth cannot rescind the normal duties of the Catholic life. Nor is God some sort of celestial “vending machine.” He wants our hearts; he wants us — not meaningless outward obedience without the proper interior motivation, in love, and by His grace. Sacraments help us, but we must do our part, too.

Please stop bashing our faith with lies. It hurts.
[/QUOTE]

epostle1:
No bashing here....I want to know what these words mean. "All created matter was “good” from the start (Gen 1:25), but was “glorified” by the Incarnation." I am very confused. Are we melding the creative powers of God Almighty with the miraculous feats of his son and his/our Father as they worked as one spirit to the cross and beyond?

Also if you can, not mandatory,
Where in scripture is the 'explicit' basis for the concept of incarnation?
When did this concept materialize in history?
Who devised this concept?

Thank you,

APAK
 

APAK

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Josho: my reply was NOT directed to you. I somehow got you caught in it. It was directed to epostle1 only
Sorry for that...

APAK
 

bbyrd009

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But why are you getting your information from what Jesus said to the Jews who were under the law of Moses? Jesus, by His own words, told the 12 that he only came to the house of Israel? Don't you believe Him?
i believe you have a bad def of Israel, HR, no offense

6It is not as though God's word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham's descendants are they all his children. On the contrary ...

there are no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom
 

tabletalk

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don't kid yourself bro, He could still be alive up on the cross right now today, if He had wanted


So, you agree Jesus is God and nothing is impossible with Him? Good.
 

epostle1

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***

Since you love and trust in your religion then keep it. As for me I told you that the religious church in the time of Jesus committed murder when they killed Jesus. Your RCC religious church committed murder when they burned people at the stake. And you think I am foolish enough to think they are God's Priests on earth. FAT CHANCE.
Those who really killed Jesus are the rabble that demanded His death, and the sins of you and me. That's who really killed Jesus. Grow up and be accountable.
No priest, bishop or pope ordered anyone to be burned at the stake, I KEEP ASKING YOU FOR PROOF AND YOU KEEP RUNNING AWAY. It's prot cult hate speech and lies. Show us your evidence or knock off your ""Bible Christian" malice.
Idiots on you tube is not evidence.
A person with a Ph.D. in history is evidence.
You offer nothing but an insulting opinion.
 

Josho

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Josho: my reply was NOT directed to you. I somehow got you caught in it. It was directed to epostle1 only
Sorry for that...

APAK

That's alright mate, don't worry, you're forgiven. :)
 

epostle1

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Since you love and trust in your religion then keep it. As for me I told you that the religious church in the time of Jesus committed murder when they killed Jesus. Your RCC religious church committed murder when they burned people at the stake. And you think I am foolish enough to think they are God's Priests on earth. FAT CHANCE.
Yet you keep telling us there were no Catholics at this time. Make up your mind.
 

epostle1

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I really want to know if you really know these things, no bashing intended here.........

epostle1:
No bashing here....I want to know what these words mean. "All created matter was “good” from the start (Gen 1:25), but was “glorified” by the Incarnation." I am very confused. Are we melding the creative powers of God Almighty with the miraculous feats of his son and his/our Father as they worked as one spirit to the cross and beyond?
That's one way to put it. Miracles are an extension of the Resurrection, the Church is an extension of the Incarnation united by the Eucharist. Not all Protestants all share this view.

Also if you can, not mandatory,
Where in scripture is the 'explicit' basis for the concept of incarnation?
John 1:14
When did this concept materialize in history?
At the instant Jesus took on human flesh in His mother's womb.
Who devised this concept?
God.
 

aspen

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So, you agree Jesus is God and nothing is impossible with Him? Good.

Why is this good? Are you confusing agreeing with doctrine with loving neighbor? Christians are called to love not quibble about doctrine
 
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Helen

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Are you confusing agreeing with doctrine with loving neighbor? Christians are called to love not quibble about doctrine

Amen!!
My very own thoughts.
If only people could "get hold of this" ✟...but pride stops them.
 
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