ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[Phoneman777]

I told you to address Rom 8:38 and Rev 20:14. If death can no longer separate us from Christ, and the lake of fire is the second death that that makes God a liar.

Revelation is talking about literal death not separating us, not the spiritual death that one dies when his agape grows cold.
Now, STOP VIOLATING POLICY AND STICK TO THIS THREAD'S O/P.

 

[Phoneman777]

I already gave my response to you................

If Matt 24:12 wanted to clarify agape love being separated from us, shouldn't they of used chórizó instead of psuchó.

psuchó: to breathe, blow, to make cool
Original Word: ψύχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: psuchó
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo'-kho)
Short Definition: I cool, grow cold
Definition: I cool, pass: I grow cold.

chórizó: to separate, divide
Original Word: χωρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chórizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kho-rid'-zo)
Short Definition: I separate, depart
Definition: (a) I separate, put apart, (mid. or pass: I separate myself, depart, withdraw.

You did NOT address the O/P of this thread which is how can the "many" of verse 12 be any longer counted as saints when they do not possess the perfected agape that the Bible says characterizes the saints??? How long will you avoid dealing with the crux of this thread by posting garbage OSAS "proof texts" and changing the discussion to the question of "separation"? I truly wish a non-OSAS Moderator would step in and address your continued efforts to subvert this thread.

 

[ATP]

Revelation is talking about literal death not separating us, not the spiritual death that one dies when his agape grows cold.
Now, STOP VIOLATING POLICY AND STICK TO THIS THREAD'S O/P.

Right, literal death. Is Rom 8:38 not speaking of literal death? :wacko:

 

[Phoneman777]

Right, literal death. Is Rom 8:38 not speaking of literal death? :wacko:

I'm this close to blocking you, ATP. Like the rest of us who have long since run out of patience with you.

 

[ATP]

You did NOT address the O/P of this thread which is how can the "many" of verse 12 be any longer counted as saints when they do not possess the perfected agape that the Bible says characterizes the saints??? How long will you avoid dealing with the crux of this thread by posting garbage OSAS "proof texts" and changing the discussion to the question of separation? I truly wish a non-OSAS Moderator would step in and address your continued efforts to subvert this thread.

Well, I did address your false doctrine. Do you enjoy studying Greek?

 

[Phoneman777]

Y'know what, ATP? I think I am going to block you now. I and the Lord have had enough.

 

[ATP]

The Word of God says we are sealed until the day of redemption. Amen.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[StanJ]

Hi Phoneman777,

Nothing wrong with that but you have to get permission from the admin to create an analysis/ or a thread without there being the ability to reply. The admin is the only member who has the jurisdiction/ability to create such threads.


I understand your thoughts regarding your exploration of this topic but again this is not possible without the admins approval. Placing such a topic in the debate forum will always draw replies because it is a topic that generates vigorous discussion. Making statements that does not allow others to participate in the debate forum is not conducive to this forums title name.

However, I would like to point out that members who engage in this thread must keep to the O/P as much as possible.

I personally don't know why there has to be a new thread on OSAS when there is already an ongoing one where all these post are probably redundant.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18216-the-doctrine-of-osas/page-47

 

[mjrhealth]

I and the Lord have had enough.

It is not the Lord that has had enough it is you, He will have you going round and round the same circle untill you get it.

Why are you and so many troubled by sin.

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

A good read

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And that is why the devil loves people to keep the law, it keeps them in bondage makes them slaves to the flesh and denies them His grace all because of unbelief, you simply dont want to believe the turth, you have set your truth in stone, made it unchangeable even to the point of denying your saviour. Far to many christians come to christ so filled with religion and their own beliefs that He can find no place for Himself, and so they become unteachable.

In all His Love

 

[DPMartin]

The only thing that every man woman and child has is the ability to trust, believe, hence the true meaning of faith. But no one is able to keep it. Faith in the Biblical context is an action or to be more accurate the beginning of an action, with expectation of fulfillment. It is not an object as many religious like to keep it in the mind set of the believer. So as to give themselves the delusion of being in control of, and the definers of, faith. The definition of the Christian faith is not defined by so-called Christians:

Gal:2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Phil:3:9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

　
Note the phrase "faith of Christ". Hence we are not the source of the faith given in Christ. Paul plainly says in Galicians with the presumed understanding that if you are not justified, you have no salvation, because you can’t be in God’s Presence without justification. And even though he saying "we have believed", he acknowledges that it is still the Faith OF Christ that justifies. You must be justified to be in God’s Presence seen Righteous that is acknowledged by God as Righteousness. Not acknowledged by men, but acknowledged by God.

It’s a continuous path that only the Presence of God through His Word can keep you on. And if you are not on it, then you have not the Presence of God with you in the first place. God doesn’t fail, nor falter. Nor does the Faith that is of Christ.
If one understands just what the Lord God judges by, then one can understand if they are in His care or not. God will never turn the faithful away, because He is Faithful and what faithful is. Therefore if He gives His Word to somebody, He keeps it. The person He gives His Word to isn’t able to keep it. Just as anything else in creation can’t keep God’s Word. Nothing can fulfill God’s Word but God Himself. Either one submits to God’s fulfillment of His Word, which results in life and living. Or one seeks the fulfillment of what they see as good in their own judgement, which results in death.


So to say that God can’t keep you, is to not trust in the Faith that is of Christ that is seen by God as what is Righteousness. Therefore, one doesn’t have the faith, belief or trust in the first place, that is required to be in God’s Presence.

If you don't trust that He can keep you, then you are not kept.

 

[Phoneman777]

The only thing that every man woman and child has is the ability to trust, believe, hence the true meaning of faith. But no one is able to keep it. Faith in the Biblical context is an action or to be more accurate the beginning of an action, with expectation of fulfillment. It is not an object as many religious like to keep it in the mind set of the believer. So as to give themselves the delusion of being in control of, and the definers of, faith. The definition of the Christian faith is not defined by so-called Christians:

Gal:2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Phil:3:9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

　
Note the phrase "faith of Christ". Hence we are not the source of the faith given in Christ. Paul plainly says in Galicians with the presumed understanding that if you are not justified, you have no salvation, because you can’t be in God’s Presence without justification. And even though he saying "we have believed", he acknowledges that it is still the Faith OF Christ that justifies. You must be justified to be in God’s Presence seen Righteous that is acknowledged by God as Righteousness. Not acknowledged by men, but acknowledged by God.

It’s a continuous path that only the Presence of God through His Word can keep you on. And if you are not on it, then you have not the Presence of God with you in the first place. God doesn’t fail, nor falter. Nor does the Faith that is of Christ.
If one understands just what the Lord God judges by, then one can understand if they are in His care or not. God will never turn the faithful away, because He is Faithful and what faithful is. Therefore if He gives His Word to somebody, He keeps it. The person He gives His Word to isn’t able to keep it. Just as anything else in creation can’t keep God’s Word. Nothing can fulfill God’s Word but God Himself. Either one submits to God’s fulfillment of His Word, which results in life and living. Or one seeks the fulfillment of what they see as good in their own judgement, which results in death.


So to say that God can’t keep you, is to not trust in the Faith that is of Christ that is seen by God as what is Righteousness. Therefore, one doesn’t have the faith, belief or trust in the first place, that is required to be in God’s Presence.

If you don't trust that He can keep you, then you are not kept.

I'm sorry but I'm having trouble understanding how your post relates to the O/P, which is the impact of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV on OSAS. It seems that OSAS fails to stand the Biblical scrutiny of Jesus' words when He refers to their "cold agape" - cold and dead agape for sure - which is anything but the "perfected agape" that is needed for one to be known as a saint bound for heaven (John 13:35 KJV; 1 John 4:20 KJV; 1 John 2:5 KJV).

 

[Phoneman777]

So far, no one who subscribes to OSAS has been able to explain how these "agape-less" ex-saints of Matthew 24:12 KJV whose agape grew cold and dead ("ex-saints" because they no longer have agape for God [1 John 4:20 KJV], agape for one another [John 13:35 KJV], and agape perfected in them [1 John 2:5 KJV] which is the Biblical criteria for sainthood) and who are wholly incapable of fulfilling the Two Great Commandments can still be heaven bound.

To say that the "agape-less many" of verse 12 are going to heaven is to say that God is in the business of "forced relationship", against which we ourselves have instituted laws with serious penalties to protect the vulnerable. Far be it from our kind, gentle Savior to force Himself upon any one of us. As the Supreme Divine Gentleman, He agapes us too much for that, and our agape for Him must "endureth to the end" if we are to be saved.

 

[ATP]

Matt 7:6 NIV. Guys, let's just let Phoneman have is do. He's not going to listen so..

 

[ATP]

Once we believe, we are then sealed until the day of redemption. Very simple....

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[DPMartin]

I'm sorry but I'm having trouble understanding how your post relates to the O/P, which is the impact of Matthew 24:12-13 KJV on OSAS. It seems that OSAS fails to stand the Biblical scrutiny of Jesus' words when He refers to their "cold agape" - cold and dead agape for sure - which is anything but the "perfected agape" that is needed for one to be known as a saint bound for heaven (John 13:35 KJV; 1 John 4:20 KJV; 1 John 2:5 KJV).

By grace through faith has been the relationship between man and his Creator since, at least, the documentation of Noah began. By grace through faith is the works that are acceptable to the Lord that are the Lord’s because, they are because of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence belonging to Him because of the Faith that is of Christ.

By works through faith to receive God’s Grace is the position of most who see OSAS as wrong.

A concept practiced in Catholicism and other denominations, even though they don’t dispute the Bible says by Grace through Faith, but reject that it is the work of God that makes you His and keeps you His. And demand that man is responsible for receiving or not receiving God’s Grace. Therefore it would be man that should receive the glory for his own salvation, because it’s the man who kept it.
If one can loss his salvation in Christ then that person should expect glory for his own salvation because he is responsible for keeping it. In a case like Catholicism, a priest can set that strait for you if you’ve faltered, when he gives last rights. Then who is responsible for the salvation fo the soul that believes he is in need of last rights by a catholic priest? A organization that states forgiveness is required but states works are required. And that forgiveness would be from who? Would that be God? If it’s from God why would He be required to forgive at the request of anyone? Unless the forgiven walk under the Grace that was there in the first place. Priest or no priest.
And if God has to forgive a soul before it passes from this life, then who is the One who is responsible for the soul being at peace with God? And what act on the part of the soul that is good enough to be his salvation?

If the salvation of a man depends on the act of the man, the man is condemned already. Hence the state of men. The salvation of men depends on the acts of God, and only the acts of God which is why He rightly gets all the Glory.

 

[StanJ]

If the salvation of a man depends on the act of the man, the man is condemned already. Hence the state of men. The salvation of men depends on the acts of God, and only the acts of God which is why He rightly gets all the Glory.

Salvations does depend on the act of a man...the man Jesus, and His act was to reconcile and redeem mankind. Only a man's act of accepting what Jesus the Son of Man did, brings about salvation. Rom 5:15 (NIV), and that salvation process is well defined in Rom 10:9-11 (NIV)

 

[DPMartin]

Salvations does depend on the act of a man...the man Jesus, and His act was to reconcile and redeem mankind.

That was an act of God in the Son of man. No man has been in heaven as Jesus stated, but Jesus states He is from heaven therefore of God in the Son of man. Therefore the act that brings us salvation is an act of God.

Only a man's act of accepting what Jesus the Son of Man did, brings about salvation. Rom 5:15 (NIV), and that salvation process is well defined in Rom 10:9-11 (NIV)

　
　
　
　
　
　
　
And I don’t understand what your position is because you quote that it’s a gift, hence not of works or effort on any man’s part. Repentance is the acceptable act, for salvation that brings about the faith that is of Christ. And you wouldn’t profess the faith if you haven’t repented and, received the faith that is of Christ.
To profess what you don’t know is to lie, and to know one must experience, hence God’s revelation to a person. Which is God’s choice to do no one can make Him do so. But what most don’t understand is that He has agreed to do so where and when He sees fit, to whomever He sees fit to. Because it is His Right to do so, He sees the heart of a person like we see a face of a person.

 

[StanJ]

That was an act of God in the Son of man. No man has been in heaven as Jesus stated, but Jesus states He is from heaven therefore of God in the Son of man. Therefore the act that brings us salvation is an act of God.　
　
And I don’t understand what your position is because you quote that it’s a gift, hence not of works or effort on any man’s part. Repentance is the acceptable act, for salvation that brings about the faith that is of Christ. And you wouldn’t profess the faith if you haven’t repented and, received the faith that is of Christ.
To profess what you don’t know is to lie, and to know one must experience, hence God’s revelation to a person. Which is God’s choice to do no one can make Him do so. But what most don’t understand is that He has agreed to do so where and when He sees fit, to whomever He sees fit to. Because it is His Right to do so, He sees the heart of a person like we see a face of a person.

Still a man, so your first post, that you did NOT qualify, is refuted as per Rom 5:15 (NIV)

as far as the second part of your post above, it makes no sense or has no context. If it was directed at me, please put it in context.

 

[Phoneman777]

By grace through faith has been the relationship between man and his Creator since, at least, the documentation of Noah began. By grace through faith is the works that are acceptable to the Lord that are the Lord’s because, they are because of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence belonging to Him because of the Faith that is of Christ.

By works through faith to receive God’s Grace is the position of most who see OSAS as wrong.

A concept practiced in Catholicism and other denominations, even though they don’t dispute the Bible says by Grace through Faith, but reject that it is the work of God that makes you His and keeps you His. And demand that man is responsible for receiving or not receiving God’s Grace. Therefore it would be man that should receive the glory for his own salvation, because it’s the man who kept it.
If one can loss his salvation in Christ then that person should expect glory for his own salvation because he is responsible for keeping it. In a case like Catholicism, a priest can set that strait for you if you’ve faltered, when he gives last rights. Then who is responsible for the salvation fo the soul that believes he is in need of last rights by a catholic priest? A organization that states forgiveness is required but states works are required. And that forgiveness would be from who? Would that be God? If it’s from God why would He be required to forgive at the request of anyone? Unless the forgiven walk under the Grace that was there in the first place. Priest or no priest.
And if God has to forgive a soul before it passes from this life, then who is the One who is responsible for the soul being at peace with God? And what act on the part of the soul that is good enough to be his salvation?

If the salvation of a man depends on the act of the man, the man is condemned already. Hence the state of men. The salvation of men depends on the acts of God, and only the acts of God which is why He rightly gets all the Glory.

So, you're saying the "many" of Matthew 24:11 KJV who no longer possess agape and lack the ability to love God and their fellow man are going to heaven?

 

[mjrhealth]

Why phoneman are you fighting God, why dont you want to be saved , why are you denying the power of God, why are you denying the works of christ, what do you think you can do to outdo God?? Dont you think God can save mankind with out our help, who do you think God is, Did He not raise Jesus from the dead, did, he not create the heavens and the earth even you, is not His wisdom beyond us, dont you think he can raise you up from the dead.

Rom_8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

In all his Love