ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[Barrd]

Still hangin' in there, PM?

I just don't have the patience that you have. Every now and then, I have to walk away for a bit.

If I didn't, I'm sure I would have lost my temper, and said something to someone that would have gotten me banned. As it is, I have tremendous pity for those who insist on such dang fool notions as OSAS. I have come to think of it as a sort of the lazy man's faith...no effort required.

You amaze me, beloved brother!

 

[DPMartin]

Still a man, so your first post, that you did NOT qualify, is refuted as per Rom 5:15 (NIV)

as far as the second part of your post above, it makes no sense or has no context. If it was directed at me, please put it in context.

You’re kidding right?

 

[DPMartin]

So, you're saying the "many" of Matthew 24:11 KJV who no longer possess agape and lack the ability to love God and their fellow man are going to heaven?

What part of "false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive" would give you the impression that they ( those the Lord is talking about) had any love for the Lord God of Israel in the first place? Where does it say the false prophets that will rise loved the Lord, and were not deceiving anyone?

 

[Barrd]

What part of "false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive" would give you the impression that they ( those the Lord is talking about) had any love for the Lord God of Israel in the first place? Where does it say the false prophets that will rise loved the Lord, and were not deceiving anyone?

Because it says, in the very next verse:

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

You do realize that this was all one discourse...Jesus didn't separate verses.

 

[Barrd]

The question here is this:

Once their love becomes cold, are the people Jesus is talking about here still going to heaven?

Remember, they did have love, otherwise, it could not have grown cold. Why did it grow cold? Because of iniquity.

Honestly, it isn't rocket science. Even simple peasants, such as fishermen or carpenters...or little old ladies from Alabama...can understand it.

So much for OSAS...

 

[epostle1]

A concept practiced in Catholicism and other denominations, even though they don’t dispute the Bible says by Grace through Faith, but reject that it is the work of God that makes you His and keeps you His.

If one can loss his salvation in Christ then that person should expect glory for his own salvation because he is responsible for keeping it.

That is impossible.

 

[ATP]

There's that word believe again. Born of God, imperishable seed...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:1 NIV Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

 

[epostle1]

.

 

[epostle1]

By grace through faith has been the relationship between man and his Creator since, at least, the documentation of Noah began. By grace through faith is the works that are acceptable to the Lord that are the Lord’s because, they are because of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence belonging to Him because of the Faith that is of Christ.

By works through faith to receive God’s Grace is the position of most who see OSAS as wrong.

A concept practiced in Catholicism and other denominations, even though they don’t dispute the Bible says by Grace through Faith, but reject that it is the work of God that makes you His and keeps you His.

That is NOT true. You would be wise to find out what Catholicism actually teaches, from reliable sources, instead of what you have been told.

And demand that man is responsible for receiving or not receiving God’s Grace. Therefore it would be man that should receive the glory for his own salvation, because it’s the man who kept it.
If one can loss his salvation in Christ then that person should expect glory for his own salvation because he is responsible for keeping it. In a case like Catholicism, a priest can set that strait for you if you’ve faltered, when he gives last rights. Then who is responsible for the salvation fo the soul that believes he is in need of last rights by a catholic priest? A organization that states forgiveness is required but states works are required. And that forgiveness would be from who? Would that be God? If it’s from God why would He be required to forgive at the request of anyone? Unless the forgiven walk under the Grace that was there in the first place. Priest or no priest.
And if God has to forgive a soul before it passes from this life, then who is the One who is responsible for the soul being at peace with God? And what act on the part of the soul that is good enough to be his salvation?

I don't mean to be rude, but when you talk about Catholicism like that, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

If the salvation of a man depends on the act of the man, the man is condemned already. Hence the state of men. The salvation of men depends on the acts of God, and only the acts of God which is why He rightly gets all the Glory.

I could be wrong but it looks like John Calvin's "Total Depravity" theory. Did you know he taught infant baptism? It's in his Institutes


Salvation, Justification, and "Faith Alone" (Index Page for Dave Armstrong)

 

[Phoneman777]

What part of "false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive" would give you the impression that they ( those the Lord is talking about) had any love for the Lord God of Israel in the first place? Where does it say the false prophets that will rise loved the Lord, and were not deceiving anyone?

Friend, the "many" in verse 12 that Jesus referred to were not "false prophets", but grace saved, born-again saints. How do we know this to be true? Because they were partakers of "agape" love - which is "selfless, self sacrificing GODLY love" - which they allowed to grow cold because of willful, presumptuous, iniquitous, deliberate sin.

Do you realize that by claiming the "many" were "false prophets", you are actually claiming that selfish, self-centered, self-serving, self-absorbed "false prophets" are capable of receiving from God and imparting to others "agape" love? Sorry, but that's redonkulous.

 

[ATP]

If Matt 24:12 wanted to clarify agape love being separated from us, shouldn't they of used chórizó instead of psuchó.

psuchó: to breathe, blow, to make cool
Original Word: ψύχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: psuchó
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo'-kho)
Short Definition: I cool, grow cold
Definition: I cool, pass: I grow cold.

chórizó: to separate, divide
Original Word: χωρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chórizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kho-rid'-zo)
Short Definition: I separate, depart
Definition: (a) I separate, put apart, (mid. or pass: I separate myself, depart, withdraw.

 

[Phoneman777]

The question here is this:

Once their love becomes cold, are the people Jesus is talking about here still going to heaven?

Remember, they did have love, otherwise, it could not have grown cold. Why did it grow cold? Because of iniquity.

Honestly, it isn't rocket science. Even simple peasants, such as fishermen or carpenters...or little old ladies from Alabama...can understand it.

So much for OSAS...

TB, you are so on target. Why cannot people accept that which is plainly before them in black and white? To admit these former "agape-less" saints are not going to heaven is to abandon OSAS forever, but Cognitive Dissonance is a strong satanic instrument of deception keeping people in bondage to OSAS.

In speaking of the end times, Jesus said Elijah shall first come and restore all things. While the Babyl-istians look for the coming of some typological Christ-figure, we who know the truth understand that Jesus was talking about a message, not a man - a message calling those who claim they are too weak to turn from sin to get off the dang fence and choose which master they will yield themselves as servants to obey (Romans 6:16 KJV). And just when I'm about to cry out to the Lord, "I'm the only one left!", He sends you to remind me that there are 7,000 in Spiritual Israel who have not bowed their knees to Baal. Bless you, my dear sister!

 

[Phoneman777]

Just as the Antinomialists are to chicken to publicly declare that we may freely break the Ten Commandments, not one OSAS believer has the intestinal fortitude to publicly declare that the "agape-less" former saints of Matthew 24:12 KJV who can no longer keep the Two Great Commandments and who no longer possess that which a Biblical saint is said to possess - agape for God, for man, and perfected agape in them - are still going to heaven.

 

[ATP]

Exod 20:20 NIV Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

 

[Phoneman777]

Why phoneman are you fighting God, why dont you want to be saved , why are you denying the power of God, why are you denying the works of christ, what do you think you can do to outdo God?? Dont you think God can save mankind with out our help, who do you think God is, Did He not raise Jesus from the dead, did, he not create the heavens and the earth even you, is not His wisdom beyond us, dont you think he can raise you up from the dead.

Rom_8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

In all his Love

Brother, I'm very wary where I cast my pearls and I dang sure don't want to cast them before someone who believes "agape-less" people who are no longer capable of keeping the Two Great Commandments are going to heaven.

 

[Phoneman777]

Exod 20:20 NIV Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

Too bad the "many" of verse 12 failed that same test and are no longer heavenbound - unless you believe that "agape-less" former saints who can no longer keep the Two Great Commandments and are no longer in possession of agape for God, for man, and agape perfected in them (which the Bible says EVERY saint possesses) are heavenbound. Of course, that's impossible, right?

 

[ATP]

Exod 22:19 NIV “Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

 

[ATP]

Too bad the "many" of verse 12 failed that same test and are no longer heavenbound - unless you believe that "agape-less" former saints who can no longer keep the Two Great Commandments and are no longer in possession of agape for God, for man, and agape perfected in them (which the Bible says EVERY saint possesses) are heavenbound. Of course, that's impossible, right?

Post 167.

 

[Barrd]

TB, you are so on target. Why cannot people accept that which is plainly before them in black and white? To admit these former "agape-less" saints are not going to heaven is to abandon OSAS forever, but Cognitive Dissonance is a strong satanic instrument of deception keeping people in bondage to OSAS.

In speaking of the end times, Jesus said Elijah shall first come and restore all things. While the Babyl-istians look for the coming of some typological Christ-figure, we who know the truth understand that Jesus was talking about a message, not a man - a message calling those who claim they are too weak to turn from sin to get off the dang fence and choose which master they will yield themselves as servants to obey (Romans 6:16 KJV). And just when I'm about to cry out to the Lord, "I'm the only one left!", He sends you to remind me that there are 7,000 in Spiritual Israel who have not bowed their knees to Baal. Bless you, my dear sister!

I hadn't left you, my beloved brother. I went to spend some time with my daughter whose little girl is doing junior cheerleading this year.
I needed a little break from all the arguing.

However, I'm back.
And I missed you.
Still here, bravely fighting the good fight, of course.
You are truly blessed, sweet brother of mine, and I am proud to be called your sister.
We will know one another, when we get Home...and I'm going to be looking for a hug!

On with the cat hunt!!

 

[heretoeternity]

Hebrews 6.4 is interesting regarding the OSAS argument...seems Paul is saying if you are saved, and then fall away (sin), there is no further repentance, and/or you have never been saved in the first instance...why would a person sin (transgress God's law) after actually receiving the gift of salvation?