ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[tom55]

I don't consider myself OSAS. I'm more one to believe in predestination (which is in the Bible) and grace through faith alone ( which also is in the Bible). But OSAS is pretty close to what I believe.

We repent when our time comes to do so because God said to. That's what starts the process and if we are predestined children then God also predestined us to repent.

Are you sure you remember each and every one or your sins? How many times a day do you suppose you sin? 20? Well for arguements sake, take that number × 365 × your age. Sure you got them all?

You are talking to a person who reads a minimum of 3 chapters to understand just one verse. I'm not like some who take a verse like Romans 6:15 and use it to support a false stance without reading all of chapters 5, 6 and 7 (and more if necessary). So anytime you think I'm taking a verse out of context, feel free to throw staffs down and see which buds almonds.

OSAS

PREDESTINATION

Both not logical. When one looks at the entirety of scripture, instead of just the parts the support what you believe to be true, one clearly see's that the predestination false doctrine falls apart.

I am of the opinion that you decide what you believe and then find scripture to support it. There are a lot of scripture verses that destroy the predestination and OSAS belief but you have disregarded those.

If you were fair you would at least say "scripture supports both beliefs so I don't know what to believe". One then has to revert back to logic. Logically OSAS and predestination don't make sense.

 

[FHII]

OSAS

PREDESTINATION

Both not logical. When one looks at the entirety of scripture, instead of just the parts the support what you believe to be true, one clearly see's that the predestination false doctrine falls apart.

I am of the opinion that you decide what you believe and then find scripture to support it. There are a lot of scripture verses that destroy the predestination and OSAS belief but you have disregarded those.

If you were fair you would at least say "scripture supports both beliefs so I don't know what to believe". One then has to revert back to logic. Logically OSAS and predestination don't make sense.

I am of the opinion that the wise Christian read the scripture and let it determine your doctrine. If you, Tom want to do it the other way around I certainly won't stand in your way. If you are saying i don't read first and let it decide what is true, its a charge without merit.

I'm not really interested in man's logic when it comes to the Bible either. Christianity isn't based on logic, its based on faith.

Oftentimes when someone says they have verses that refute predestination they are the ones who aren't looking at all scripture. Either that or they apply their brand of logic to change the meaning of words and verses.

I doubt you have an argument I haven't heard before.

Do you even believe in grace through faith? Or is that illogical too?

 

[tom55]

I am of the opinion that the wise Christian read the scripture and let it determine your doctrine. If you, Tom want to do it the other way around I certainly won't stand in your way. If you are saying i don't read first and let it decide what is true, its a charge without merit.
I'm not really interested in man's logic when it comes to the Bible either. Christianity isn't based on logic, its based on faith.
Oftentimes when someone says they have verses that refute predestination they are the ones who aren't looking at all scripture. Either that or they apply their brand of logic to change the meaning of words and verses.
I doubt you have an argument I haven't heard before.
Do you even believe in grace through faith? Or is that illogical too?

How did the Christians who were alive before the last book of the NT was written (about 70 years after the death of Jesus) determine their doctrine? The early Christians couldn't even decide what should be in the bible and be called infallible scripture for several hundred years AFTER Jesus death. How did they determine their doctrine if they didn't have a bible in their hands?

Do you believe you have the freedom to choose if you want to serve God or not? Or are you predestined to serve him and the Atheist are predestined not to serve him?

Maybe you are predestined to believe in predestination and NO ONE will ever convince you otherwise? :)

 

[FHII]

How did the Christians who were alive before the last book of the NT was written (about 70 years after the death of Jesus) determine their doctrine? The early Christians couldn't even decide what should be in the bible and be called infallible scripture for several hundred years AFTER Jesus death. How did they determine their doctrine if they didn't have a bible in their hands?

Do you believe you have the freedom to choose if you want to serve God or not? Or are you predestined to serve him and the Atheist are predestined not to serve him?

Maybe you are predestined to believe in predestination and NO ONE will ever convince you otherwise? :)

I fail to find any relevance to the topic at hand in your first paragraph.

To the second paragraph: God chose and drew me to him. I am simply responding to the calling. I do so cheerfully, but if I were to resist and i truly am a child of God, then God knows how to compel me (or anyone else).

Jesus's sheep hear his voice and follow him.

 

[tom55]

I fail to find any relevance to the topic at hand in your first paragraph.

To the second paragraph: God chose and drew me to him. I am simply responding to the calling. I do so cheerfully, but if I were to resist and i truly am a child of God, then God knows how to compel me (or anyone else).
Jesus's sheep hear his voice and follow him.

First paragraph: YOU said, "I am of the opinion that the wise Christian read the scripture and let it determine your doctrine."

That is why I asked: "How did the Christians who were alive before the last book of the NT was written...."

Logically if they (early Christians) didn't have what we call today infallible scripture in their hands (the Bible) then does that mean that they were unable to "determine doctrine"? And who are the wise Christians? There are lots of people and denominations that call themselves Christian. If all of them are wise and they all disagree with each other then how do we determine who has the most wisdom?

Second Paragraph: If you are "responding to the calling" then you are not predestined. You made the choice to respond. Or did God force you to respond? (I am not sure since you really didn't clearly answer my question) My point is we have free will. Predestination is opposite of free will.

Third Paragraph: We agree on something.

 

[FHII]

First paragraph: YOU said, "I am of the opinion that the wise Christian read the scripture and let it determine your doctrine."

That is why I asked: "How did the Christians who were alive before the last book of the NT was written...."

Logically if they (early Christians) didn't have what we call today infallible scripture in their hands (the Bible) then does that mean that they were unable to "determine doctrine"? And who are the wise Christians? There are lots of people and denominations that call themselves Christian. If all of them are wise and they all disagree with each other then how do we determine who has the most wisdom?

Still irrelevant to the discussion. I do know what you are trying to do though.... You are trying to downplay the authority of the Bible. It's an old trick of those who have doctrine outside the Bible.

Second Paragraph: If you are "responding to the calling" then you are not predestined. You made the choice to respond. Or did God force you to respond? (I am not sure since you really didn't clearly answer my question) My point is we have free will. Predestination is opposite of free will.

Third Paragraph: We agree on something.

Reread what I wrote. I already answered your question before you asked it:

I wrote:

"God chose and drew me to him. I am simply responding to the calling. I do so cheerfully, but if I were to resist and i truly am a child of God, then God knows how to compel me (or anyone else)."

 

[Phoneman777]

So, since we cannot trust in OSAS (seeing that it is an idea that cannot stand the test of Biblical scrutiny), let us trust in Jesus to keep us saved as we remain daily surrendered to Him by His grace.

 

[FHII]

So, since we cannot trust in OSAS (seeing that it is an idea that cannot stand the test of Biblical scrutiny), let us trust in Jesus to keep us saved as we remain daily surrendered to Him by His grace.

I actually agree 100% with your overall pount (not that OSAS can't stand Biblical scutiny), for some pretty deep reasons.

Like I said earlier, I'm more a believer in predestination than OSAS because I can give direct quotes on predestination. But there is one problem that is rarely discussed with predestination. Maybe soon I'll bring it up. For now, it directly is related to your statement.

 

[Phoneman777]

I actually agree 100% with your overall pount (not that OSAS can't stand Biblical scutiny), for some pretty deep reasons.

Like I said earlier, I'm more a believer in predestination than OSAS because I can give direct quotes on predestination. But there is one problem that is rarely discussed with predestination. Maybe soon I'll bring it up. For now, it directly is related to your statement.

While there are verses that seem to appear to teach OSAS, the truth is that there are others that clearly do not, which means those that appear to do so must be revisited. Unfortunately, the ratio of one's desire to seek truth whatever it may be to the desire to hold onto cherished beliefs often means the difference between a revisit to them or not.

I don't believe the Bible teaches predestination in the sense that "God withheld freewill from humanity when he deliberately created some to be lost and others to be saved". We must remember that the mention of "predestinate" is immediately preceded by "foreknew". If we leave "predestinate" aside for a minute and focus on "foreknew", we first understand that God "foreknew" who would CHOOSE to be saved and be lost. And this foreknowledge of each individual's choice allows Him to "predestinate" from the very beginning who is to be conformed into the image of Jesus. What do you think?

 

[mjrhealth]

I don't believe the Bible teaches predestination in the sense that "God withheld freewill from humanity when he deliberately created some to be lost and others to be saved

No but it does show that God knows those who wil believe and listen to Him. WHich is why I stll cant understand why it says, "many are caled but few are chosen". Why would God call anyone knowing they wont listen?? But than it also says,

Rom_11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

or

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Unfortunately, the ratio of one's desire to seek truth

All one has to do is ask Jesus, He is teh truth and in Him there is no lie, Have you asked Him??

Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

As for OSAS

1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

But man has determined that his weakness is greater than teh power of God to save. Do you really think God would start something he couldnt finish??

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It is the Power of God, but you need to believe, its all about Faith, somthing that seems to be missing a lot.

 

[tom55]

Still irrelevant to the discussion. I do know what you are trying to do though.... You are trying to downplay the authority of the Bible. It's an old trick of those who have doctrine outside the Bible.

Irrelevant to the discussion? I am responding to YOUR statement ("I am of the opinion that the wise Christian read the scripture and let it determine your doctrine) I show you how your opinion is not logical and NOW you don't want to discuss it and then accuse me of trying to downplay the authority of the bible?


Reread what I wrote. I already answered your question before you asked it:

I wrote:

"God chose and drew me to him. I am simply responding to the calling. I do so cheerfully, but if I were to resist and i truly am a child of God, then God knows how to compel me (or anyone else)."

I don't understand how you can 'respond to the calling' and still be predestined? If YOU are responding that means you have free will which is opposite of predestination.

I don't understand how you can be a "child of God" if God is MAKING you (thru predestination) be a child of his? Wouldn't that make you a robot? God pre-programmed you to do what he wants you to do? Some he programs to disobey him, commit sin and go to hell and others he programs to do good and seek heaven? That's not logical.....that's a robot.

 

[tom55]

So, since we cannot trust in OSAS (seeing that it is an idea that cannot stand the test of Biblical scrutiny), let us trust in Jesus to keep us saved as we remain daily surrendered to Him by His grace.

Amen!

 

[FHII]

Irrelevant to the discussion? I am responding to YOUR statement ("I am of the opinion that the wise Christian read the scripture and let it determine your doctrine) I show you how your opinion is not logical and NOW you don't want to discuss it and then accuse me of trying to downplay the authority of the bible?

No Tom.... I was responding to your post, and it was nothing about what early CHristians did. Go back and look at the history.

Wouldn't that make you a robot? God pre-programmed you to do what he wants you to do? Some he programs to disobey him, commit sin and go to hell and others he programs to do good and seek heaven? That's not logical.....that's a robot.

I am not surprised you do not understand. But no, we are not robots. We are sheep. SHeep hear his voice and follow.

 

[FHII]

We must remember that the mention of "predestinate" is immediately preceded by "foreknew". If we leave "predestinate" aside for a minute and focus on "foreknew", we first understand that God "foreknew" who would CHOOSE to be saved and be lost. And this foreknowledge of each individual's choice allows Him to "predestinate" from the very beginning who is to be conformed into the image of Jesus. What do you think?

Only in one verse, Phoneman. You are speaking of Romans 8. If you look carefully the word "foreknew" comes before the word "Predestinate", but only in sentence structure. The verse doesn't give an order (one came before the other). It says who he foreknew he ALSO called. WIth the word "also" it isn't known which came first or if they came at the same time.

What's more, ROmans 8:28 says that we are called according to HIS purpose, not our own choice. Also if you look at Ephesians 1 we see that we are predestined according to the good pleasure of his will and then later according to the purpose of him that worketh all things after the council of his own will. That's pretty powerful. It says God works everything according to what he wants, and in this case it's speaking about our predestination.

Your overall notion that God's foreknowledge allows him to predestinate is not provable (as far as I can see) by the scripture. I don't see anything to suggest that God makes (before we are even born) and looks at our future and then decides if we are predestinated. I do see reasoning and verses that say things like we are fearfully and wonderfully made. I even see verses that say that some are natural brute beats made to be taken and destroyed.

 

[tom55]

I am not surprised you do not understand. But no, we are not robots. We are sheep. SHeep hear his voice and follow.

You are saying we are predestined. If one is predestined they don't have a choice on how they act or what they choose because no matter what they choose their predestination will always take them back to what God predestined them for. That means we don't have free will. That means we are pre-programmed like robots.

Sheep have free will. They wander. That's why they need a shepherd. They wander away (by their own stupid choice) from the shepherd and the shepherd is always there to guide them back to the flock but they have to CHOOSE if they want to go back to the flock. Some run away from the shepherd (by choice) and are consumed by the wolf. Some run away and are saved by the shepherd before they are consumed by the wolf.

If we are predestined we don't need a shepherd because our predestination will always bring us back to God.

I am surprised you do not understand something so simple and logical.

 

[FHII]

You are saying we are predestined. If one is predestined they don't have a choice on how they act or what they choose because no matter what they choose their predestination will always take them back to what God predestined them for. That means we don't have free will. That means we are pre-programmed like robots.

Sheep have free will. They wander. That's why they need a shepherd. They wander away (by their own stupid choice) from the shepherd and the shepherd is always there to guide them back to the flock but they have to CHOOSE if they want to go back to the flock. Some run away from the shepherd (by choice) and are consumed by the wolf. Some run away and are saved by the shepherd before they are consumed by the wolf.

If we are predestined we don't need a shepherd because our predestination will always bring us back to God.

I am surprised you do not understand something so simple and logical.

There is so much I disagree with in your post that I'm not sure how to start.

Well, first your definition of pedestination (which you really haven't given, but i see pieces of your meaning) is strange. You seem to think it means we don't have the ability to act on our own. Not so.

When i consider the concept of predestination, i simply understand that God knows my path before its taken and he sees to it that his plan for me is going to be carried out. There is going to be hiccups. There are going to be bumps in the road and detours. All known by God beforehand. Some of my doing, some by his doing.


The Bible says we are theLord's free man. We are a free man, but still the Lord's.

Think of that when you consider the sheep analogy. Do sheep have free will? Sure. The can eat on the north side of the pasture or the south side. They can have clover or grass. They can sleep under the tree or by the brook.

But do they have free will to leave the watch? No. Yes they can stray but what happens? The shepherd brings him back. In other words he is only free in the watch.

Now Jesus the shepherd said he would leave 99 sheep to bring one back who was lost. He said he knows all his sheep by name. He said his sheep obey his voice and will not follow another. And i have full confidence that Jesus don't lose his sheep to wolves as he said no man can pluck them out of his hands.

They are under HIS watch and thats how he can guarantee they are predestinated. He don't lose his sheep!

I know what you are thinking... You are probably thinking that some sheep actually do wander off and are never recovered. Jesus said they were goats. John said they were never of us to begin with.

No, the predestined not only need a shepherd. They are the ones who have a shepherd! Paul is the one who talks most directly about predestination, yet he also organized the set ministry for his time.

 

[tom55]

There is so much I disagree with in your post that I'm not sure how to start.
Well, first your definition of predestination (which you really haven't given, but i see pieces of your meaning) is strange. You seem to think it means we don't have the ability to act on our own. Not so.

The worlds definition of Predestination: the belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God or fate and cannot be changed

When i consider the concept of predestination, i simply understand that God knows my path before its taken and he sees to it that his plan for me is going to be carried out. There is going to be hiccups. There are going to be bumps in the road and detours. All known by God beforehand. Some of my doing, some by his doing.

FHII's definition of Predestination: God knows my path before its taken and he sees to it that his plan for me is going to be carried out. There are going to be hiccups, bumps in the road and detours, all known by God beforehand. Some of my doing and some by his doing.

If God "knows your path" that is not predestination. That is more like precognition or foreknowledge. If He "sees to it that his plan for (you) is going to be carried out" that is called implementing a plan; HIS plan. If God is implementing HIS plan for you that once again comes back to not having free will. Either God will not allow you to interrupt his plan or if you do something that interrupts his plan for you he will change it back. Once again, that is not really free will.

Having hiccups, bumps and detours that 'are all known by God beforehand' brings us back to precognition or foreknowledge; NOT predestination.

Having hiccups, bumps and detours along the way that are "some of (your) doing, some of his doing" suggest that He is throwing a wrench in his own predestined plan for you. Sometimes you throw a wrench his plan for you. It makes no sense that he would throw a wrench in his own plan. That's not logical!!
The Bible says we are theLord's free man. We are a free man, but still the Lord's.
Think of that when you consider the sheep analogy. Do sheep have free will? Sure. The can eat on the north side of the pasture or the south side. They can have clover or grass. They can sleep under the tree or by the brook.
But do they have free will to leave the watch? No. Yes they can stray but what happens? The shepherd brings him back. In other words he is only free in the watch.
Now Jesus the shepherd said he would leave 99 sheep to bring one back who was lost. He said he knows all his sheep by name. He said his sheep obey his voice and will not follow another. And i have full confidence that Jesus don't lose his sheep to wolves as he said no man can pluck them out of his hands.
They are under HIS watch and thats how he can guarantee they are predestinated. He don't lose his sheep!
I know what you are thinking... You are probably thinking that some sheep actually do wander off and are never recovered. Jesus said they were goats. John said they were never of us to begin with.
No, the predestined not only need a shepherd. They are the ones who have a shepherd! Paul is the one who talks most directly about predestination, yet he also organized the set ministry for his time.

I think we are basically agreeing on the sheep and the goat scenario. My MAIN point is IF one is predestined they don't need a shepherd. Why do you need a shepherd if in the end your going where God wants you to go (heaven or hell)? A shepherd isn't going help you earn salvation if you have predestined salvation. A shepherd can't keep you out of hell if you are predestined for it. It's going to happen whether the shepherd is there or not.

Your scenario is a roller coaster scenario but you are making it sound like you are on a road. You are saying in life one can drive wherever they want, however in reality they are really on a roller coaster. You say there are going to be bumps and detours along the way, however you eventually end up where God has predestined you to be.

In reality there are no detours along the way AND you can't go wherever you want because a roller coaster is on a rail. You don't have a choice where to go. You can't avoid the bumps along the way because you have to stay on the rail to get to the end. And the end of a roller coaster is always the beginning. No choice. No free will. No detours. You are right were God wanted you to be all along. You really were not in control. You thought you were, but you weren't.

My scenario is a road scenario. You have a choice to take a detour. You have a choice to avoid some of the bumps. You have a choice to take a different road and see where it leads you. Sometimes that road leads you to hell, but you made that choice. We choose what road to take in life. We are not on a roller coaster. We are not predestined.

 

[Phoneman777]

Only in one verse, Phoneman. You are speaking of Romans 8. If you look carefully the word "foreknew" comes before the word "Predestinate", but only in sentence structure. The verse doesn't give an order (one came before the other). It says who he foreknew he ALSO called. WIth the word "also" it isn't known which came first or if they came at the same time.

What's more, ROmans 8:28 says that we are called according to HIS purpose, not our own choice. Also if you look at Ephesians 1 we see that we are predestined according to the good pleasure of his will and then later according to the purpose of him that worketh all things after the council of his own will. That's pretty powerful. It says God works everything according to what he wants, and in this case it's speaking about our predestination.

Your overall notion that God's foreknowledge allows him to predestinate is not provable (as far as I can see) by the scripture. I don't see anything to suggest that God makes (before we are even born) and looks at our future and then decides if we are predestinated. I do see reasoning and verses that say things like we are fearfully and wonderfully made. I even see verses that say that some are natural brute beats made to be taken and destroyed.

Friend, Jesus Himself said the Lake of Fire is prepared for "the devil and his angels."

If your interpretation is correct, then Jesus was wrong because He failed to say that it was prepared "for the devil, his angels, and those whom God deliberately created to be lost and consigned there along with the devil and his angels."

The fact that He never mentions the Lake of Fire being prepared for us should be clear to all that He never intended for any member of the human family to go there, but through our CHOICE to remain impenitent, we condemn ourselves to the same fate as the devil and his angels.

 

[FHII]

Friend, Jesus Himself said the Lake of Fire is prepared for "the devil and his angels."

If your interpretation is correct, then Jesus was wrong because He failed to say that it was prepared "for the devil, his angels, and those whom God deliberately created to be lost and consigned there along with the devil and his angels."

The fact that He never mentions the Lake of Fire being prepared for us should be clear to all that He never intended for any member of the human family to go there, but through our CHOICE to remain impenitent, we condemn ourselves to the same fate as the devil and his angels.

Oh really? Which verse is that? And did that verse say only the devil and his angels would be there or was someone thrown into this "lake of fire" with them?

Your argument isn't going to hold up. The verse you are thinking of is Mat 25:41. It doesn't say the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, and the King was saying he was going to throw others in there. Furthermore, you are forgetting a verse that actually is about the lake of fire in Rev 20. Lots of people get thrown into the lake of fire.

God declares the end from the beginning, his council stands and will accomplish all his purpose. That includes throwing people into the lake fire.

 

[FHII]

Tom55,

Its fine that you pulled a definition off the net, but you should instead look at the Strongs greek definition. Its a lot simpler. An even better plan is to look how its used in the Bible.

Paul said we are predestined (and it befuddles me why I'm even debating it since its clearly in the Bible) but he still spoke of the need for leadership. He also spoke of trials, tribulations and giving thanks for them. So i remain within the confines of the Bible when i speak of hiccups and wrenches.

Speaking of which, again I'm not interested in your logic. So if you think its illogical that God will through wrenches into your life.... Don't care. God threw quite a few in Joseph's life.

As for your road and roller coaster scienerio talk.... Sorry I just didn't find anything i wanted to discuss.