ANALYSIS OF MATTHEW 24:12-13 - WHY IT DISPROVES OSAS

[FHII]

Sometimes a text appears to teach something totally contrary to what the rest of Scripture teaches, and often that text becomes foundational while teh others are dismissed. That's when Hebrew and Greek come in handy. The words in the original language can be referenced to find the true meaning of the text and almost every time the original language reveals that what the text appears to teach is not what the text is saying at all. For instance:

"And I say unto you, thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my church..." - Jesus

This verse is a major "proof" text for Catholicism's claim that Christ built His church upon Peter, the first "pope", which means that it alone is Christ's true church. However, the Greek reveals another story:

"Thou art Peter (Gr: "Petros" - an unstable pebble) and upon this Rock (Gr: "Petra" - a giant boulder) I will build My church..."

Here, we see clearly that Jesus wasn't referring to Peter as what He would build his church upon. What, then, was the "Rock" that Jesus said He'd build His church on? The "Rock" of Peter's confession that he'd just spoken in the previous verse: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Phoneman, that is a good example. Again, I don't mind folks referring to the greek or hebrew. I still don't think its needed as much as people here use it and I believe more often than not its used to get OUT of a verse rather than upholding it.

In the case you are talking about, the surrounding text tells us that Jesus was talking about the revelation peter gave being the rock. But yes, going to the greek confirms it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman, that is a good example. Again, I don't mind folks referring to the greek or hebrew. I still don't think its needed as much as people here use it and I believe more often than not its used to get OUT of a verse rather than upholding it.

In the case you are talking about, the surrounding text tells us that Jesus was talking about the revelation peter gave being the rock. But yes, going to the greek confirms it.

Exactly. The Word of God is alive and powerful

 

[Jun2u]

Phoneman

I gather post #621 is your commentary on the last paragraph of post #620.

I agree the Catholics use Mt 16:18 as proof text to claim that Jesus built His church upon Peter and that he was the first pope. Actually, Peter was never in Rome. If anyone would have been the first pope it should have been Paul for he spent two or three years in Rome.

The church that Jesus built was upon the Rock who was God Himself!

2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

2Sa 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock…

Ps 62:2 He only is my rock and my salvation;…

There are many more abundance of like scripture references in the Bible but the above will suffice to bring home the point that knowledge in Hebrew or Greek is helpful yes, as I've alluded above, but never essential, as long as the reader understands that the scripture text just read was understood by comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual (1Co 2:13).

A six year old who knows how to read will understand that the rock set forth in the scriptures above speaks only of God . It seems to me that the words “petros” and “petra“ does not only speak about a stone and a rock but also of masculine and feminine. In any case, God is not a God of confusion but a God of order.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman, that is a good example. Again, I don't mind folks referring to the greek or hebrew. I still don't think its needed as much as people here use it and I believe more often than not its used to get OUT of a verse rather than upholding it.

In the case you are talking about, the surrounding text tells us that Jesus was talking about the revelation peter gave being the rock. But yes, going to the greek confirms it.

Amen, but sadly, appeals to Greek and Hebrew are often used to give a private interpretation to Scripture. There is one person here who actually argues that Jesus, the Son and Prince of the Most High King, didn't actually become a "prince" until the people "voted" Him into that office by welcoming shouts of Hosanna as He rode in on a donkey into Jerusalem, even though the same people just 7 days later shouted for His crucifixion. This subjective thinking has dire implications regarding the proper interpretation of Daniel's "70 Weeks" prophecy.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman

I gather post #621 is your commentary on the last paragraph of post #620.

I agree the Catholics use Mt 16:18 as proof text to claim that Jesus built His church upon Peter and that he was the first pope. Actually, Peter was never in Rome. If anyone would have been the first pope it should have been Paul for he spent two or three years in Rome.

The church that Jesus built was upon the Rock who was God Himself!

2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

2Sa 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock…

Ps 62:2 He only is my rock and my salvation;…

There are many more abundance of like scripture references in the Bible but the above will suffice to bring home the point that knowledge in Hebrew or Greek is helpful yes, as I've alluded above, but never essential, as long as the reader understands that the scripture text just read was understood by comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual (1Co 2:13).

A six year old who knows how to read will understand that the rock set forth in the scriptures above speaks only of God . It seems to me that the words “petros” and “petra“ does not only speak about a stone and a rock but also of masculine and feminine. In any case, God is not a God of confusion but a God of order.

To God Be The Glory

Amen, glory be to the Most High King, my Rock, my Fortress, and my Deliverer. He is so patient and kind towards us. Here is a beautiful description from a Holy Spirit inspired writer of the book, Steps to Christ:

"Jesus did not suppress one word of truth, but He uttered it always in love. He exercised the greatest tact and thoughtful, kind attention in His intercourse with the people. He was never rude, never needlessly spoke a severe word, never gave needless pain to a sensitive soul. He did not censure human weakness. He spoke the truth, but always in love. He denounced hypocrisy, unbelief, and iniquity; but tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebukes. He wept over Jerusalem, the city He loved, which refused to receive Him, the way, the truth, and the life. They had rejected Him, the Saviour, but He regarded them with pitying tenderness. His life was one of self-denial and thoughtful care for others. Every soul was precious in His eyes. While He ever bore Himself with divine dignity, He bowed with the tenderest regard to every member of the family of God. In all men He saw fallen souls whom it was His mission to save."

 

[Jun2u]

Amen, glory be to the Most High King, my Rock, my Fortress, and my Deliverer. He is so patient and kind towards us. Here is a beautiful description from a Holy Spirit inspired writer of the book, Steps to Christ:

"Jesus did not suppress one word of truth, but He uttered it always in love. He exercised the greatest tact and thoughtful, kind attention in His intercourse with the people. He was never rude, never needlessly spoke a severe word, never gave needless pain to a sensitive soul. He did not censure human weakness. He spoke the truth, but always in love. He denounced hypocrisy, unbelief, and iniquity; but tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebukes. He wept over Jerusalem, the city He loved, which refused to receive Him, the way, the truth, and the life. They had rejected Him, the Saviour, but He regarded them with pitying tenderness. His life was one of self-denial and thoughtful care for others. Every soul was precious in His eyes. While He ever bore Himself with divine dignity, He bowed with the tenderest regard to every member of the family of God. In all men He saw fallen souls whom it was His mission to save."

I must caution you when speaking about the things of God where you get your sources. A person who writes a Christian book is NEVER inspired neither is the book that he wrote. Not only did he write the book after the Bible was completed he is also in violation of Revelation 22:18 where it declares we are not to add to the Bible or God will add to him the plagues written in scriptures.

The contents of the book “Steps to Christ” have already been written in scriptures and we have nothing more to add.

To God BE The Glory

 

[Phoneman777]

I must caution you when speaking about the things of God where you get your sources. A person who writes a Christian book is NEVER inspired neither is the book that he wrote. Not only did he write the book after the Bible was completed he is also in violation of Revelation 22:18 where it declares we are not to add to the Bible or God will add to him the plagues written in scriptures.

The contents of the book “Steps to Christ” have already been written in scriptures and we have nothing more to add.

To God BE The Glory

True, the only exception being is that the person writing the book had the gift of prophecy, which we are told would be available to the church always so that "we would come behind in no gift, waiting on the coming of the Lord" and would be available "until we all come into a unity of the faith". Then, the words of that person, as in the words of the many prophets in the Book of Acts like Philip's four daughters, would be as inspired. You have to admit that the passage is a beautiful description of the life of Jesus that draws almost involuntarily the attention of the reader of those words to the matchless authority of the Bible.

 

[Jun2u]

True, the only exception being is that the person writing the book had the gift of prophecy, which we are told would be available to the church always so that "we would come behind in no gift, waiting on the coming of the Lord" and would be available "until we all come into a unity of the faith". Then, the words of that person, as in the words of the many prophets in the Book of Acts like Philip's four daughters, would be as inspired. You have to admit that the passage is a beautiful description of the life of Jesus that draws almost involuntarily the attention of the reader of those words to the matchless authority of the Bible.

Exactly! This is what Revelation 22:18 is trying to convey. The gift of prophecy ceased when the Bible was completed. Ultimately, Jesus is saying there is no more revelation in any form coming from Him. What God wanted us to know have all been written in scriptures.

We do not get truth from someone who can eloquently describe the life of Jesus except through the scriptures.

You did not give scripture reference but note whatever Philip's daughters said were prophesied BEFORE the Bible was completed. Therefore, they were not in violation of Revelation 22:18 and as a matter of fact, the words they prophesied became a part of the Bible therefore, true.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Phoneman777]

Exactly! This is what Revelation 22:18 is trying to convey. The gift of prophecy ceased when the Bible was completed. Ultimately, Jesus is saying there is no more revelation in any form coming from Him. What God wanted us to know have all been written in scriptures.

We do not get truth from someone who can eloquently describe the life of Jesus except through the scriptures.

You did not give scripture reference but note whatever Philip's daughters said were prophesied BEFORE the Bible was completed. Therefore, they were not in violation of Revelation 22:18 and as a matter of fact, the words they prophesied became a part of the Bible therefore, true.

To God Be The Glory

I am a firm believer of Revelation 22:18 KJV. No prophet is to add or take away from Scripture.

I also believe Ephesians 4:11-14 KJV which says the gift of prophecy is to exist in the church "until we all come to a unity of the faith" and "a perfect man" and to the "fullness of Christ". No one can argue that the church is united, perfect, and has attained the fullness of Christ which means the gift of prophecy must be yet present with us, until such time as the church will attain the above status - at the Second Coming.

I also believe 1 Corinthians 1:7 KJV which clearly states that the church will "come behind in no gift waiting for the coming of Jesus"

 

[Ac28]

OSAS is the only truth for today. Believe Paul. He is your apostle. Totally believe Paul's gospel (below) and you are saved. Very simple. What I have written below is an example of dispensationalism at work.

(1) Christ's earthly ministry was 100% to the Jews.
Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Jn 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

(2) Except for Cornelius, the entire ministry of the 12 Aposles was to Israel. The purpose of Peter going to Cornelius was to pave the way for Paul
Gal 2:7-8 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

(3) Paul was THE Apostle to the Gentiles and the only books in the Bible written directly to us Gentiles (addressed to us) were written by Paul.
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
1 Tim 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

(4) What Paul said about salvation

Paul's Gospel
1 Cor 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Faith or Works
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

After Believing, you are permanantly sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

(5) Everything in Paul's writings says OSAS. The main belief in works stems from the book of James, which was written to Israel and not to Gentiles - Jas 2:24
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[Dcopymope]

Works based beliefs abound. If I don't pretend to show compassion to some dirt bag atheist spitting on my faith in Jesus Christ, then I'll burn in hell according to the OP. Here is the deal OP, even scum bag atheists can show "agape" love, which is nothing more than a fancy middle English term describing compassion and empathy. I guess an atheist can get into heaven because he shows "compassion" towards other people. Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the life, no one gets to the father but through him. He didn't say I can get to the father because I show compassion towards other people, I'm saved only because of the finished work done on the cross by Jesus and nothing more or less. You cannot justify yourself in any way shape or form in the eyes of the father by your "agape" love or any other form of works. In the eyes of the father you are nothing more than a filthy rag, dirty linen that without Jesus cannot be washed clean and made new. Hell, when Jesus Christ took upon the sins of the world on the cross, he felt like the father abandoned him. His own father had to look away from him because at that point he looked like the scum of the earth we call humankind. it seems like people are just trying to find some elitist reason to believe that they are saved while other believers aren't. I'm better than you because I can show some compassion, which really only shows that you aren't a complete demonic psychopath incapable of relating to your fellow man like a normal human being.

 

[Phoneman777]

Works based beliefs abound. If I don't pretend to show compassion to some dirt bag atheist spitting on my faith in Jesus Christ, then I'll burn in hell according to the OP. Here is the deal OP, even scum bag atheists can show "agape" love, which is nothing more than a fancy middle English term describing compassion and empathy. I guess an atheist can get into heaven because he shows "compassion" towards other people. Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the life, no one gets to the father but through him. He didn't say I can get to the father because I show compassion towards other people, I'm saved only because of the finished work done on the cross by Jesus and nothing more or less. You cannot justify yourself in any way shape or form in the eyes of the father by your "agape" love or any other form of works. In the eyes of the father you are nothing more than a filthy rag, dirty linen that without Jesus cannot be washed clean and made new. Hell, when Jesus Christ took upon the sins of the world on the cross, he felt like the father abandoned him. His own father had to look away from him because at that point he looked like the scum of the earth we call humankind. it seems like people are just trying to find some elitist reason to believe that they are saved while other believers aren't. I'm better than you because I can show some compassion, which really only shows that you aren't a complete demonic psychopath incapable of relating to your fellow man like a normal human being.

You have confused agape with idolatry, which is the satanic counterfeit.

• Agape is unselfish love which does not seek for itself and comes down from Heaven alone.

• Idolatry is selfish, self-seeking idolatrous devotion/compassion/empathy/sacrifice/etc. and is rendered for the purpose of personal gain (idolatrous worship of false gods, wives, husbands, children, etc.) which provides the idolater a hope, a security, an identity, or whatever else they are seeking to gain from their idolatrous relationship.

Therefore, the "many" of verse 12 who possessed "agape" but allowed it to grow cold and dead are immortalized as ex-saints who were once destined for heaven but sadly will wake up in the resurrection of the damned. "Remember Lot's wife" says our Savior.

 

[tom55]

Anyone who believes they are OSAS is in danger of loosing their salvation. I have grave concerns for their soul.

 

[mjrhealth]

Anyone who believes they are OSAS is in danger of loosing their salvation. I have grave concerns for their soul.

Well if you are not saved than I guess you dont have a problem?? So are you saved or are you not??? or is it like so many, that you dont actually believe Jesus can save you??

 

[tom55]

Well if you are not saved than I guess you dont have a problem?? So are you saved or are you not??? or is it like so many, that you dont actually believe Jesus can save you??

You and I will find out if we are saved when we die. Neither you or I or dead yet. Unless you can see into the future and you have seen yourself in heaven?

Furthermore this OSAS theory has only been around for about the last 500 years of Christianity. It is contrary to scripture and is not even logical. Did it take God 1500 years to reveal to us the OSAS theory? Why did he not tell us about this salvation 2000 years ago?

It's not logical or biblical.....But I wish you luck in your delusion.

 

[mjrhealth]

Unless you can see into the future and you have seen yourself in heaven

No, but God can, dont you trust Him when he says "saved". Saved is an end word, it is done, He dosent say He is saving you.

You and I will find out if we are saved when we die

But you see, Gods promises are "yes and amen", it is man who doesnt believe Him, Have you no faith, are you going to save yourself like so many are trying to do.

 

[Dcopymope]

No, but God can, dont you trust Him when he says "saved". Saved is an end word, it is done, He dosent say He is saving you.

But you see, Gods promises are "yes and amen", it is man who doesnt believe Him, Have you no faith, are you going to save yourself like so many are trying to do.

This is why I consider the so called "body of Christ" today as a whole to be an absolute joke. There is no "body", its been dismembered and cast off into the air by false doctrine. They can't even agree on something as plainly stated in scripture as repenting of your sins, your scum nature, and believing in Jesus Christ as the long awaited redeemer of his creation with all your heart mind and spirit to be saved. They are of the world with its mosaic of works based beliefs, ripe for the picking by the Anti-Christ with his coming false gospel.

 

[mjrhealth]

There is no "body", its been dismembered and cast off into the air by false doctrine.

Oh there is a body, your looking in the wrong place,

Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

its always being here, but people look to mens churches, what has His church got to do with mans, you cna ne in Hois church be His bride and not be in mans church, just as you cna be in mans church nad not be in His nor His bride.

 

[tom55]

No, but God can, dont you trust Him when he says "saved". Saved is an end word, it is done, He dosent say He is saving you.

But you see, Gods promises are "yes and amen", it is man who doesnt believe Him, Have you no faith, are you going to save yourself like so many are trying to do.

You know what! You are right! I just realized I am saved and will always be saved since I do have faith and I do believe in Him. I am going to heaven.....right after I rob this bank!

Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth! It was very easy for me to take the place of God and decide that I am saved. It's not up to Him to decide if I enter heaven. I will just kick the door open and let him know that I have arrived.

 

[FHII]

You know what! You are right! I just realized I am saved and will always be saved since I do have faith and I do believe in Him. I am going to heaven.....right after I rob this bank!

Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth! It was very easy for me to take the place of God and decide that I am saved. It's not up to Him to decide if I enter heaven. I will just kick the door open and let him know that I have arrived.

Its pretty funny that when some hear of grace and being free from a law that no one has ever been able to keep... They rejoice and move deeper into God. Then there are others who want to rob banks.

Real children of God can handle grace.... Others... Well perhaps its best that they stay under the law.