And anyone who marries..

[Born_Again]

What is the point you're making here.


In God's eyes this falls under the category for divorce. Adultery is sexual immorality.


I would think the devil yokes an unbeliever to a believer, not God.

The devil may have yoked the believer with the unbeliever but God obviously doesn't want them to be together so it stands to reason He would separate them. Surely He wouldn't think "Oh well, let him/her live in darkness".... How does that grow or glorify His kingdom? C'mon.

 

[ATP]

The devil may have yoked the believer with the unbeliever but God obviously doesn't want them to be together so it stands to reason He would separate them.

I agree 1 Cor 7:12-16 NIV, but still take heart in 1 Cor 7:10-11 NIV.

 

[aspen]

"What is the point you're making here."

I think you understand my point. If women are held to a literal interpretation of these verses, they are guilty of a pretty serious sin. God did not respond well to Cain when he presented his sacrifice in a manner that displeased Him. According to Paul, women who do not cover their heads during worship are guilty of not presenting themselves in a worthy manner.


"In God's eyes this falls under the category for divorce. Adultery is sexual immorality."

And, since we are all guilty of sexual immorality on a daily basis - every time we entertain an impure thought; I guess all marriages qualify for divorce.


"I would think the devil yokes an unbeliever to a believer, not God."

Pretty powerful view of the Devil......

 

[Born_Again]

"And, since we are all guilty of sexual immorality on a daily basis - every time we entertain an impure thought; I guess all marriages qualify for divorce."

Good point!

And if God does separate a marriage made in darkness by the enemy, then does He simply say.. "And now you will have no right to be in a happy and healthy relationship. The devil took that away from you"

These are valid questions.

 

[ATP]

"What is the point you're making here."

I think you understand my point. If women are held to a literal interpretation of these verses, they are guilty of a pretty serious sin. God did not respond well to Cain when he presented his sacrifice in a manner that displeased Him. According to Paul, women who do not cover their heads during worship are guilty of not presenting themselves in a worthy manner.

Ok. What does this have to do with the thread though.

"In God's eyes this falls under the category for divorce. Adultery is sexual immorality."

And, since we are all guilty of sexual immorality on a daily basis - every time we entertain an impure thought; I guess all marriages qualify for divorce.

Well, that's an incorrect interpretation. The words "sexual immorality" in Matt 5:32 NIV is translated porneia which means "fornication". Fornication is a thought followed by an action. Your thoughts produce desires, and your desires produce actions. If you think about the sin but do not commit it, that is not sin. Your desire must conceive first...

James 1:13-15 NIV When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

fornication / noun
1. voluntary sexual intercourse outside marriage
2. (law) voluntary sexual intercourse between two persons of the opposite sex, where one is or both are unmarried
3. (Bible) sexual immorality in general, esp adultery

"I would think the devil yokes an unbeliever to a believer, not God."

Pretty powerful view of the Devil......

What other answer could there be.

And if God does separate a marriage made in darkness by the enemy, then does He simply say.. "And now you will have no right to be in a happy and healthy relationship. The devil took that away from you"

1 Cor 7:12-16 NIV.

 

[aspen]

"Ok. What does this have to do with the thread though."

Quite a bit. These verses about women covering their heads during worship need to be considered with women involved in worship who are not following the literal interpretation, but are sincere in their worship - just like the marriage verses you have presented in the OP need to be considered alongside of the people who may not be following the literal interpretation. If you do not considered the people, all you are doing to allowing the verses to condemn large populations of people.

"Well, that's an incorrect interpretation. The words "sexual immorality" in Matt 5:32 NIV is translated porneia which means "fornication". Fornication is a thought followed by an action. Your thoughts produce desires, and your desires produce actions. If you think about the sin but do not commit it, that is not sin. Your desire must conceive first..."

Not according to Jesus, who tells us that anyone who thinks about murdering someone or lusting after a women has already committed the sin. In fact, no one is free of sin because even if we have not committed the actions, all of us have murdered or lusted in our hearts (Matt 5:28.)


"What other answer could there be."

Hmm...this is a troubling question......I think we have been blaming the devil ever since the Garden, for our own sin. The devil is a cautionary tale - we are our own worst enemy. Getting honest and recognizing that we are the ones who are responsible for our selfishness and the demand it is does to our relationships and our ability to be vulnerable, exercise empathy, and practice unconditional love is the first step to confession and participation in our sanctification.





1 Cor 7:12-16 NIV.[/quote]

 

[ATP]

"Ok. What does this have to do with the thread though."

Quite a bit. These verses about women covering their heads during worship need to be considered with women involved in worship who are not following the literal interpretation, but are sincere in their worship - just like the marriage verses you have presented in the OP need to be considered alongside of the people who may not be following the literal interpretation. If you do not considered the people, all you are doing to allowing the verses to condemn large populations of people.

Well, these are the end times. Immorality is everywhere 2 Tim 3:1-9 NIV.

"Well, that's an incorrect interpretation. The words "sexual immorality" in Matt 5:32 NIV is translated porneia which means "fornication". Fornication is a thought followed by an action. Your thoughts produce desires, and your desires produce actions. If you think about the sin but do not commit it, that is not sin. Your desire must conceive first..."

Not according to Jesus, who tells us that anyone who thinks about murdering someone or lusting after a women has already committed the sin. In fact, no one is free of sin because even if we have not committed the actions, all of us have murdered or lusted in our hearts (Matt 5:28.)

I'm pretty sure Jesus was talking about our actions. In Jude 1:7 NIV they use the term "ekporneuó" which means to give oneself up to fornication.

"What other answer could there be."

Hmm...this is a troubling question......I think we have been blaming the devil ever since the Garden, for our own sin. The devil is a cautionary tale - we are our own worst enemy. Getting honest and recognizing that we are the ones who are responsible for our selfishness and the demand it is does to our relationships and our ability to be vulnerable, exercise empathy, and practice unconditional love is the first step to confession and participation in our sanctification.

..and then theirs the spirit of the antichrist working in men and women. we don't have to blame the devil for the devil to exist.

 

[KingJ]

Paul is not in conflict, Christians reading Paul are. Because in all instances of his talking about marriage Paul makes it clear it is what HE SAYS not the Lord.

But Christians that want what they want without consideration of God, will jump on that small piece of text to justify themselves.

This is the same mentality that allows Christians to have vengeance on others, seek mammon over righteousness and generally act like terrible people. (think war, slavery, bigotry, etc.)

Jesus did make it clear as crystal. NO divorce unless it is adultery, NO remarriage unless the spouse dies.

I agree 100% with you Pom!! I don't see Paul's teaching conflicting at all though. Jesus says light and darkness do not mix. The Christian always sticks at it. They leave us / God removes them. God would only do such if they are unsaved.

 

[KingJ]

ATP, have you ever been divorced? Have you ever been placed in this situation? Have you ever been on your knees, pleading with God to save your marriage and it still ended?

Instructions to the Christian are crystal clear BA. The Christian always sticks at marriage. A Christian must never be the one to initiate the divorce unless there was adultery that they do not repent of and seek reconciliation for.

In your case I am imagining you were doing the pleading and not her? That means you are sanctified and not her. If she wants to be right with God, she must come try re-unite with you. Unless you have both moved on, she must at least come say she was wrong to divorce and repent big time to God. When they ''move on'' = them committing adultery = you can move on.

 

[pom2014]

And my answer is no. We have been apart too long. We get along better now than when we were married. In this instance, its better for her, me, and the kids.

I'm sorry that you cannot reconcile it. God also separated from Israel many times and still took her back, I understand if you cannot do the same.

 

[pom2014]

Jeremiah 3:8

That passage was that God divorced Israel, but then took her back.

This is how WE are supposed to be.

 

[pom2014]

"And, since we are all guilty of sexual immorality on a daily basis - every time we entertain an impure thought; I guess all marriages qualify for divorce."

Good point!

And if God does separate a marriage made in darkness by the enemy, then does He simply say.. "And now you will have no right to be in a happy and healthy relationship. The devil took that away from you"

These are valid questions.

You CAN still have a functional marriage IF both sides get counselling, have faith and collaborate.

But in the case of your marriage neither she nor you can do that.

So it ends and you both remain apart until one of you dies.

Before that death, neither of you can remarry. God put away Israel many times but always takes her back after she redeems herself.

Now to the secular humanist, that would make God a dysfunctional being as well. By allowing his bride to be abusive and him always coming back to modern psychology that would
be a heinous thing.

But we're talking God, not a human. And IF God was like a man, then Israel would NOT be his bride. WE would NOT be grafted onto that tree, WE would have NO hope for salvation and
all of us would be dead and headed for the second death.

So who would you rather have as God? The loving, forgiving, long suffering husband or the its over I'm moving on with my life husband?

I think I'll take the former or the latter.

 

[aspen]

You CAN still have a functional marriage IF both sides get counselling, have faith and collaborate.

But in the case of your marriage neither she nor you can do that.

So it ends and you both remain apart until one of you dies.

Before that death, neither of you can remarry. God put away Israel many times but always takes her back after she redeems herself.

Now to the secular humanist, that would make God a dysfunctional being as well. By allowing his bride to be abusive and him always coming back to modern psychology that would
be a heinous thing.

But we're talking God, not a human. And IF God was like a man, then Israel would NOT be his bride. WE would NOT be grafted onto that tree, WE would have NO hope for salvation and
all of us would be dead and headed for the second death.

So who would you rather have as God? The loving, forgiving, long suffering husband or the its over I'm moving on with my life husband?

I think I'll take the former or the latter.

I am pretty confident that most good Christian who have never experience a marriage that does not work, and only understands divorce in theory, would agree with you, POM

 

[ATP]

I am pretty confident that most good Christian who have never experience a marriage that does not work, and only understands divorce in theory, would agree with you, POM

1 Cor 7:10-11 NIV To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

 

[pom2014]

I am pretty confident that most good Christian who have never experience a marriage that does not work, and only understands divorce in theory, would agree with you, POM

And if you follow God's command on divorce you are able to do it because of one or both people in the marriage cheated on one another.

But if it because he won't put the milk back and she won't stop spending the budget up at Macy's; is NOT an acceptable reason for divorce.
Nor are any other reasons.

Counseling, of course. Separation, yes that too.

Divorce? No not good enough.

And remarriage? Not until one or the other dies.

That's they way it is to be. No matter how much we stamp our feet like children denied sweets, we cannot tell God no without consequences.

 

[aspen]

And if you follow God's command on divorce you are able to do it because of one or both people in the marriage cheated on one another.

But if it because he won't put the milk back and she won't stop spending the budget up at Macy's; is NOT an acceptable reason for divorce.
Nor are any other reasons.

Counseling, of course. Separation, yes that too.

Divorce? No not good enough.

And remarriage? Not until one or the other dies.

That's they way it is to be. No matter how much we stamp our feet like children denied sweets, we cannot tell God no without consequences.

The idea that a marriage either ends for legitimate reasons, like infidelity OR end for frivolous reasons like not putting the milk always is so ridiculous, it is beyond comment. Only on FOX news and within the Heritage Foundation is such childish reasoning accepted as reality.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Good grief.

I have been away from the forums for a bit but hopefully I will be able to get on here soon and address this post. Hopefully it will remain active.

Aspen (btw I was on a while ago and saw your heart wrenching post about your marriage and wanted to respond to you then, I'm sorry) and BA, I believe you are partly right in your point of view, but maybe can only see it through the lens of your pain.

ATP, I believe you are almost right but can only see through the lens of hypocrisy.

Divorce is one of my favorite subjects, I will try to return for this conversation.

I will double down on scripture and tell you that I believe there is not even the magical "adultery clause" that so many want to use as an excuse to get divorced (of course I have scripture to back it up silly)

It is an exciting study and we will delve into it upon my return.

It is always awesome to see what God has to say on a subject. Especially one as important as marriage. And this subject is not just one verse long (problem with OP) or three verses long....we have to journey through the entire bible...I know I had to do it.

SL

 

[ATP]

ATP, I believe you are almost right but can only see through the lens of hypocrisy.

If quoting scripture is hypocrisy then I'm baffled.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

If quoting scripture is hypocrisy then I'm baffled.

Quoting only scripture that you want is hypocrisy. You need much more study into the subject. Or do you really think that you have exhausted the subject in 4 verses?

 

[ATP]

Quoting only scripture that you want is hypocrisy. You need much more study into the subject. Or do you really think that you have exhausted the subject in 4 verses?

No, rather what the scripture says is most important. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

1 Cor 7:10-11 NIV To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.