"And I Will Profess Unto Them, I Never Knew...Who, Exactly?"

[brightfame52]

quietthinker

My position is; all mankind are 'in Christ' unless they choose to be out.

Thats not scriptural, only the Chosen of God are in Christ. Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The point of the OP: To show Christians need to stop using Matthew 7:21-23 KJV to "prove" this popular but flawed notion -"only those Jesus never knew will be told to depart, which means those Jesus knows are OSAS".

Jesus didn't say "all" unknown to Him will be commanded to depart - He said "many".......which allows for that crowd of unknown "many" to contain many others known full well by Him but told to depart just the same - because "many" is not the same as "all".

Now, instead of this verse being "self evident truth for OSAS" which the OSAS desperately desires it to be, it's shown to be nothing of the kind.

It is this way among man, NONE WANT SELF EXPOSURE.

I believe that a person can be born again ,receive Christ's gift of salvation. WALK in love of him and his word many years and yet reject that same faith and be headed on the left with all the unbelievers. Their place will be the lake of fire.

It is not one nor the other but IT IS PERSONAL & INDIVIDUAL. We all must stand steadfast in ALL his word, unmovable for this life, belief, faith is what we will give account for.

In the end, it does not matter to me one whit what others think, believe, attend, read nor hold to. I must keep my eyes on God, walk in his word, show his love, and never return again to the pig pen.

 

[quietthinker]

quietthinker


Thats not scriptural, only the Chosen of God are in Christ. Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I hear what you're saying bf. The thing is, it depends on context as to what is meant by various texts read. If you're interested, I'm happy to explain what I mean?

 

[brightfame52]

I hear what you're saying bf. The thing is, it depends on context as to what is meant by various texts read. If you're interested, I'm happy to explain what I mean?

The elect were Chosen in Christ before the foundation, they were in Him representatively, by which they were in union with Him. Also such ones being in Christ, which depicts a very close union, Jesus would never tell them "23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus knows them that are His, for He layed down His Life for them Jn 10:14,15

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And no friend, Im not interested in you explaining such foolishness.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Brightframe believes in Calvinism, the TULIP is his flower.

 

[quietthinker]

The elect were Chosen in Christ before the foundation, they were in Him representatively, by which they were in union with Him. Also such ones being in Christ, which depicts a very close union, Jesus would never tell them "23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus knows them that are His, for He layed down His Life for them Jn 10:14,15

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And no friend, Im not interested in you explaining such foolishness.

I also understand that you think it's foolishness yet I would say, you think this because you haven't seen HOW the dots join in this matter.
I was thinking the other day of what Jesus repeated frequently, ie 'if you have ears to hear then hear'. He is basically saying, there is more to the story than what you think....be open to it.

 

[Phoneman777]

The born again wont be walking by faith, in the Rapture, as They'll be looking at Jesus, face to face.
No faith required.

Good gravy, man, any simpleton knows that.

If you are not, and the Rapture happens soon, and its going to, then you will have to both believe and endure to the end of the entire Trib, to go to heaven.

I think I've effectively shown you and the pre-trib crowd how unfair God would be to force everyone in history to walk by faith and not by sight up until the "secret rapture", only to grant to "those who will afterward go through the last 7 years of tribulation" the ultimate privileged advantage of walking exclusively by sight due to all the Bible-confirming evidence lying around all over the globe in plain sight - crashed planes, trains, and automobiles, piles of clothes and jewelry where the saints disappeared, etc.

 

[Phoneman777]

It is this way among man, NONE WANT SELF EXPOSURE.

I believe that a person can be born again ,receive Christ's gift of salvation. WALK in love of him and his word many years and yet reject that same faith and be headed on the left with all the unbelievers. Their place will be the lake of fire.

It is not one nor the other but IT IS PERSONAL & INDIVIDUAL. We all must stand steadfast in ALL his word, unmovable for this life, belief, faith is what we will give account for.

In the end, it does not matter to me one whit what others think, believe, attend, read nor hold to. I must keep my eyes on God, walk in his word, show his love, and never return again to the pig pen.

Amen amen, well said. I can't understand why people want to have it any other way and feverishly turn the pages of Scripture to find "evidence" for that....well, I do have my suspicions and they all revolve around a love for cherished sin that gets in the way of the truth you speak.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Who is he talking about,to?

Nominal ,name only,Christians.

''never knew'' you. Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world .
Before the fall.Before sin entered the world by one man, Adam. Interesting isn't it? When Eve disobeyed God,sinned,first.

That phrase "before the founding of the world" is NOT referring to the creation of the planet.....this conveys the idea of "laying down seed" as in virile semen for the creation of human beings.....the "founding of the world" (kosmos) is therefore the founding of the human race with the birth of Cain....the first murderer. He was the first man born in sin, but the man he murdered was his own brother...who is referred to as the first righteous man.

To have everything planned for the failure and suffering of humanity is unthinkable on the part of a loving Creator....in whose image we are made.
Fee will never existed in that case, which made God's command NOT to eat of the forbidden fruit meaningless. It means that they had no choice....it was inevitable. Christ came to teach us and to demonstrate when the devil tempted him, that he could make the same kind of decisions as Adam was tempted to do....Adam failed to make the right one.....but Jesus did not.

Free will is a gift, but abuse turned it into a curse. We have choices and each of them have consequences.....some mistakes will have dire consequences.

The Lamb's Book of Eternal Life containing the names of all whom God would save was written before the foundation of the world too.

Our inclusion in the Book of Life is based on the decisions we make with the free will that God gave us in our lifetime. There is no pre-destination.

Jesus ] '' I never knew you...''
Is referring to those whose names are not in his Book of Eternal life.
Never knew. Not, I don't know you. Never, God is aware in terms of eternity, never knew you.

"I NEVER knew you" means that those who accept what is not truth in this life, will never be written in the Book of Life at all.....we are all being tested in this world for citizenship in the earthly realm of God's Kingdom. If we fail the test, Jesus is the judge, so who do we argue with if we fail? It will all be our own doing.

 

[Davy]

Just the same, Jesus told them He never knew them. And besides, I can do anything in anyone's name, only, I'll be a liar if it's not true. Or deluded. Or something. Do you think there may be any liars, or deluded ones?

Much love!

The Holy Spirit does not work for the 'unbeliever'.

I rest my case.

 

[Behold]

Good gravy, man, any simpleton knows that.

I think I've effectively shown you and the pre-trib crowd how unfair God would be to force everyone in history to walk by faith s of clothes and jewelry where the saints disappeared, etc.

God does not "force' you to do anything, even tho the heretic John Calvin would teach you otherwise, Phoneman777.

What God does is offer the Gift of Salvation to everyone by "faith".

If a person receives it, then God gives to them the new birth.. And if they dont.....because they don't believe that "Faith is counted as righteousness", and would rather be a ranting heretic who is trying to work your way into heaven, then hell is waiting and Satan is proud to name them as His own.

John 3:36

 

[marks]

The Holy Spirit does not work for the 'unbeliever'.

I rest my case.

I guess I misspoke. what I meant to say was, Not that I can actually do anything, only, I can do whatever it is I do, and call it being done in the name of the Lord, but that doesn't make it true.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Sin is the nature of mankind, disallowing this and judging others in what you disallow.

Is sin the nature of the "old man" or the "new creature in Christ Jesus"? A true Christian will always answer "old man". What say you?

When it comes to those who've accepted Christ, never confuse the "Just Man" who trusts Jesus to cover him with His grace while "striving against sin" -- and the "Presumptuous Man" who claims to be covered by grace but has resigned himself a slave to habitual, known, presumptuous sin. The one will meet Jesus in peace and the other will go straight to hell.

Before you sing another song of praise about how the sacrifices of love, kindness, peace, etc., render obedience an unnecessary, futile pursuit, I refer you to Samuel the prophet:

"Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

 

[Phoneman777]

God does not "force' you to do anything, even tho the heretic John Calvin would teach you otherwise, Phoneman777.

I've repeatedly told you in the OSAS crowd that God is a Gentleman Who will neither sit down nor continue to occupy the throne of a man's heart without that man's consent. It is you guys in the OSAS crowd who say once Jesus takes up residence in a man's heart, He can never be evicted.

What God does is offer the Gift of Salvation to everyone by "faith".

That which is integral to "faith" is the concept of "faithfulness".
"Faith" that fails to incorporate "faithfulness" is no faith all all. Proof?
"Faith without works is dead" - and the OSAS License to Sin is a false assurance that we may by dead faith obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

If a person receives it, then God gives to them the new birth.. And if they dont.....because they don't believe that "Faith is counted as righteousness"

Once again, you shut your eyes, stop your ears, and refuse to accept the Biblical truth found in Matthew 24:12-13 KJV that the saints can choose to turn from God and be lost, per Romans 8:7 KJV and 1 John 5:3 KJV.

, and would rather be a ranting heretic who is trying to work your way into heaven, then hell is waiting and Satan is proud to name them as His own.

I assure you, we of the Conditional Salvation know full well Jesus has made it abundantly clear in Luke 17:10 KJV that "salvation by works" is impossible so we don't bother trying to obtain it that way. We obtain it by grace through inward faith which is outwardly demonstrated by obedient works...those who have no outward obedient works demonstrate they have no inward faith.

 

[amigo de christo]

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV is considered by the Once Saved Always Saved crowd to be among their strongest "proof texts". It's claimed, "Those who are saved but continue to work iniquity will not be lost because only those Jesus never knew will be told to depart from Him."

Matthew 7 KJV​

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

The reason they conclude "only" those Jesus never knew will be told to depart is because they indeed read the word "many" but unconsciously interpret it as "all". Did Jesus say "all" who hear Him say to depart will be unknown by Him? No. He said "many" - "many" is not the same thing as "all".

Yes, there will be many in that day Jesus never knew to whom He will command to depart. However, there will also be those He knew full well but they allowed widespread iniquity to kill their agape cold and dead, leaving them unable to endure to the end and be saved, according to Matthew 24:12-13 KJV - they, too, will hear those same tragic words of Jesus.

So, who only will enter the kingdom of heaven? "He that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21 KJV). Iniquity workers are not doing the will of the Father, no matter how high they raise their praise hands in church. Let's all strive to be among those who "do His commandments, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city" (Revelation 22:14 KJV).

 

[quietthinker]

The Holy Spirit does not work for the 'unbeliever'.

I rest my case.

are you sure about that? I can think of several examples.

 

[Davy]

I guess I misspoke. what I meant to say was, Not that I can actually do anything, only, I can do whatever it is I do, and call it being done in the name of the Lord, but that doesn't make it true.

Much love!

I understand what you mean, but it's still important to understand how brethren can be deceived, especially in the latter days, of which Scripture gives us many warnings against being deceived.

In today's time, prosperity ministries have sprung up, which not that many years ago were seen by most Christians as fronts for thievery and deception. Now, get some famous actors or music artists to come and put on a show, and it fills those mega-church seats and money plates. So how can so many believers be so shallow and deceived? Yet we were warned.

 

[Davy]

are you sure about that? I can think of several examples.

Sorry, I cannot think of 'any'... miracles from God worked by 'unbelievers' via The Holy Spirit.

And I strongly recall the following warning about blasphemy against The Holy Spirit with a false belief...

Acts 8:9-23
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God."
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, "Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost."
20 But Peter said unto him, "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
KJV

 

[quietthinker]

Sorry, I cannot think of 'any'... miracles from God worked by 'unbelievers' via The Holy Spirit.

And I strongly recall the following warning about blasphemy against The Holy Spirit with a false belief...

Acts 8:9-23
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God."
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, "Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost."
20 But Peter said unto him, "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
KJV

Off the top of my head I can think of God using the Persian King Cyrus to show extraordinary favour to the Israelites, then I can think of the donkey talking to Balaam. There are other examples also which right now don't come to mind.

I think God can use whoever/whatever he wants. This is indicated by Jesus saying to the Pharisees; 'but He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” Luke 19:40

I also think we need to be careful determining what God can and can't do

 

[Davy]

Off the top of my head I can think of God using the Persian King Cyrus to show extraordinary favour to the Israelites, then I can think of the donkey talking to Balaam. There are other examples also which right now don't come to mind.

I think God can use whoever/whatever he wants. This is indicated by Jesus saying to the Pharisees; 'but He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” Luke 19:40

I also think we need to be careful determining what God can and can't do

Cyrus didn't work miracles, nor cast out demons and such. God simply chose Cyrus to free the Jews from their 70 years Babylon captivity. God called Cyrus His anointed for that reason, not to cast out demons in Christ's name. Christ had not yet been born then either.

What 'we' need to do is, to stick with what God's Word says as written, and be careful of fables.