"and their eyes were opened..."

[amadeus]

but who can find the lamb Yah supposedly killed?

This goes back to what @Base12 [post #8] said about the skins. Our friend @Giuliano first brought that other kind of skin to my attention on another forum many years ago. Consider also the skin as per Ezek 37:6. What did skin add to us at any time?

 

[amadeus]

i would argue that maybe discerning good from evil is not the same as knowing good and evil, and eating the fruit thereof

also, it should maybe be reiterated that this a mythology, whether Xtians choose to believe so or not; there were no eyewitnesses, and a literal historical account is not what was written, except maybe to the blind

And were we all not blind before we began to see... if we ever did?

"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:40-41

"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39-40

 

[Giuliano]

And were we all not blind before we began to see... if we ever did?

"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:40-41

"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39-40

Revelation has an interesting verse about nakedness and seeing.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

How does that fit with the passage from Genesis?

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 

[amadeus]

@Giuliano

Amadeus said:
And were we all not blind before we began to see... if we ever did?

"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:40-41

"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39-40

Giuliano said:
Revelation has an interesting verse about nakedness and seeing.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

How does that fit with the passage from Genesis?

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Life was lost when Adam and Eve disobeyed and ate from that tree. That was also the beginning of blindness for all the things of God were now invisible to the carnal eyes of men. Jesus brought Life so that people who were dead could be born again from above. The Holy Spirit was poured out providing that eyesalve in the Revelation verse so that men could again begin to see the things of God and finally God himself, at first through a glass darkly but then "face to face". Remember even Moses was told that for man to see God's face was death. But David told to seek His face. The inability to man to see the face of God and live was to change and is changing now as man, or some men, are becoming again "in the image" of God:

First as it was prior to the disobedience:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Gen 1:26-27

And now as it is becoming:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[bbyrd009]

for we shall see him as he is

 

[Giuliano]

Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

 

[stredaleve]

The lower animals, of course, are not conscious of their nakedness.

well because they did not eat the forbidden fruit and animals do not have souls right? but humans we are a living soul

we are very different from animals the glory of God is man the glory of man is the woman christ jesus is the invisible image of God and we males are identical to christ jesus males are also image of God

even angels do not look like animals only the beast look like animals and the sheep but they look more like monsters than animals because of the tradition if i see a sheep with 7 horns and 7 eyes i'll honestly tell you it is a monster it is a beast

 

[farouk]

Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

@Giuliano I guess the moral is that we ought to watch what comes via the eye...

(Significantly - if metaphorically - 'Looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2).

 

[MattMooradian]

What change specifically in Scripture ?

The shame, the putting on clothes, God making clothes for them to wear, the awareness of the knowledge of good and evil. All of these are Biblical.

 

[MattMooradian]

because they did not eat the forbidden fruit and animals do not have souls right

No. We have always been similar to animals in a number of ways: legs, hair, hearts, kidneys, etc., etc. All I'm asking is if we had one additional similarity to animals before the Fall - no awareness of good and evil; thus, no shame over their nakedness.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP, good topic, I believe I know where you're going with this. an evolution of the mind?. for Eve said, "a tree to be desired to make one wise". this is dealing with the evolution of one's mind, intelligents. the opening of one's eyes is "to know". now one needs wisdom to guide them in either righteousness to LIFE or unrighteousness to DEATH.

PICJAG.

 

[stredaleve]

No. We have always been similar to animals in a number of ways: legs, hair, hearts, kidneys, etc., etc. All I'm asking is if we had one additional similarity to animals before the Fall - no awareness of good and evil; thus, no shame over their nakedness.

yes if that's what you are asking
we are like just animals who knows no evil and good but a little special because of how eve was made adam can't find any help from all of the animals so God gave eve to the man before the fall adam can speak already but the animals can't

 

[stredaleve]

No. We have always been similar to animals in a number of ways: legs, hair, hearts, kidneys, etc., etc. All I'm asking is if we had one additional similarity to animals before the Fall - no awareness of good and evil; thus, no shame over their nakedness.

but the animals do not have souls
only humans have souls that's why we are called living souls

 

[Yan]

Same thing most people today are ashamed of when they are seen naked. Let's not over think it.

Nakeedness of soul is called as heart circumcision, where the soul is naked similar to cut off the foreskin of genital so that everybody is capable to see the inner foreskin, and the tools to circumcised the heart/liver is divination with dark arts (Ezekiel 21:21; Zechariah 10:2). So, the works of the darkness is revealing all hidden sins and makes them defile or altered the heart of men; that's why Adam & Eve woke up of their unconsciousness because Eve had been tempted by Lilith to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree of Kabbalah. But God, also used the reality and truth by using the darkness to bring all sinners to come to God and made them repent. God can benefit of both world (light & darkness) to glorify His own greatness, and made men see how far does mankind has lost from His sight and His commandments.
The works of the Holy Spirit was to hide all weakness of men (1 Corinthians 13), but the works of the darkness is revealing what is hidden (Proverbs 25:2).
Because God of Israel become as cloud in the daylight (Genesis 9:12-17) and become as the fire at night (Exodus 3:1-10; Exodus 13:21-22).

 

[MattMooradian]

dark arts

Going to the pharmacy is engaging in the dark arts. Look up the word 'sorcerer' in your Bible translations - dispenser of medicines. We have all sought out the dark arts!

 

[MattMooradian]

only humans have souls that's why we are called living souls

Yes; only humans have souls.
But, our human body's are corrupt. Biology and genetics are what supports that corruption. We have bodies like animals, genetics makes us prone to territorial behavior (property rights), prone to sexual acting out, prone to hoarding for the future, prone to prejudice of some (family members, similar ethnicity, etc.) over others (non-family members, etc.), and prone to over-valuing survival of the body. This world is not our home; this body will pass away; money is worthless in Heaven. The Fall seems to describe an evolution of consciousness of good and evil. Like animals, we were in ignorant bliss prior to the Fall. The knowledge of good and evil was eye opening for the human race (that is different from being 'good'; that knowledge was not good). Animals continue to be in ignorant bliss. Jesus gave us a clean slate; we are still sinners, but we are not held to be guilty in God's eyes (because of Jesus' blood). The question is, what is the next step in our spiritual evolution? The law is written on our hearts, we have the power to move mountains (though, no one has tapped into that faith since Peter walked on water for a few steps), and we have manna from Heaven (though most of us still rely upon our own devices to supply their human needs). Many Christians ignore a significant message from Jesus: "the kingdom of God is within you" & "the kingdom of God comes not with observation". Is our ignorance of the power of the Holy Spirit within us holding Christianity back? Does our continued striving to pay the bills hold Christians back? Does our bickering over Bible versus hold Christianity back from tapping into the real law written upon our heart?

 

[MattMooradian]

a mythology

Maybe; but, to say that will bring the Evangelicals out of the woodwork. Nevertheless, even if it is a mythology, the story is about ignorance of what is right and wrong, followed by enlightenment to what is right and wrong (Lucifer, after all, is symbolized as the morning star). After the enlightenment they feel shame (not before) and clothe themselves. God supports this behavior by making them clothing, too. God was helping humans avoid their feeling of shame by allowing clothing. There are clear evolutionary moments when humans began to wear clothing (lower hominids did not use clothing, as far as scientists can tell). Many have read this story and understood it to mean that the serpent was good, and God wanted to keep us ignorant. But, I do not agree with that reading. God said, "You may eat fruit from any tree in the garden." But, not the tree of Knowledge; "For God knows that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." So, we can clearly see that God has acknowledged that the tree of Knowledge caused us to "become like gods, knowing good and evil". Jesus referenced this godlikeness when they questioned him about His claiming to be God. Jesus said, "Ye are all gods". So, the question becomes, if the tree of Knowledge gave us something that seems good (the ability to distinguish between good and evil), and this quality made us more similar to the "gods", and even Jesus referenced this inheritance from the Fall, why did God not want us to possess this ability. I would say it was because we were not mature enough for this knowledge at that point in time. But, because of Satan, we received this Knowledge before we were mature enough to manage it. The 10 commandments, of course, were given so "that sin might increase" (Rom. 5:20). We have to ask, why would God want sin to increase? I believe Paul answered this: so that we would realize that we are in need of Christ's forgiveness (too weak to overcome sin without God's help). God has a plan; God is raising us like we raise children. He protects us from things that may be good, but that can hurt us if we are not prepared for it. We would not let a 5 year old ride an untamed horse, even if horse riding is a good thing. God is tending to our maturity throughout evolution and history. The next step, I believe, is what modern Christianity has left behind from the Gospels: turning the other cheek (pacifism is not common to many Christians), trusting God to meet our needs (not toiling to meet our needs; the birds of the air are still more trusting of God compared to modern Christians), not resisting evil (anti-abortionists are actually opposing God's words), having the power to move mountains (no real miracle-workers today; the Holy Spirit should be abounding, but none have faith), remembering that 'every day is the sabbath' (the kingdom of God is present here and now, not only in some distant future), the continued ignoring of why "there is no marriage in Heaven", and the taking of oaths in God's name (witnesses in court, every Christian marriage is initiated with this sin). Modern Christianity minimizes all these Biblical teachings, explains them all away as unnecessary or harmless.

 

[bbyrd009]

id break that up a little, but ya! :)

So, the question becomes, if the tree of Knowledge gave us something that seems good (the ability to distinguish between good and evil), and this quality made us more similar to the "gods", and even Jesus referenced this inheritance from the Fall, why did God not want us to possess this ability. I would say it was because we were not mature enough for this knowledge at that point in time. But, because of Satan, we received this Knowledge before we were mature enough to manage it.

i wonder if it might also be the quality of our "knowledge," too; we are easily deceived, and allow facts to substitute for knowledge quite easily i think

 

[stredaleve]

Same thing most people today are ashamed of when they are seen naked. Let's not over think it.

but how come
some people are not ashamed even if they are naked infront of other people

like when the women were naked in front of the child they did not show that they were ashamed but when the child grew up

then one of them said it was actually embarrassing when seen by the same child who got older before i used to not be embarrassed but now it is different

 

[Yan]

Going to the pharmacy is engaging in the dark arts. Look up the word 'sorcerer' in your Bible translations - dispenser of medicines. We have all sought out the dark arts!

Because all mankind doing the same sins with the fruit of science, we should not condemn ourselves. Those who are faint hearted are punished by their own, instead of be thankful to the Lord before we do everything in this life to glorify His name (Colossians 2:16-23; 1 Corinthians 8).