Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
And were we all not blind before we began to see... if we ever did?i would argue that maybe discerning good from evil is not the same as knowing good and evil, and eating the fruit thereof
also, it should maybe be reiterated that this a mythology, whether Xtians choose to believe so or not; there were no eyewitnesses, and a literal historical account is not what was written, except maybe to the blind
Revelation has an interesting verse about nakedness and seeing.And were we all not blind before we began to see... if we ever did?
"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:40-41
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39-40
Amadeus said:
And were we all not blind before we began to see... if we ever did?
"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:40-41
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39-40
Giuliano said:
Revelation has an interesting verse about nakedness and seeing.
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
How does that fit with the passage from Genesis?
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
well because they did not eat the forbidden fruit and animals do not have souls right? but humans we are a living soulThe lower animals, of course, are not conscious of their nakedness.
@Giuliano I guess the moral is that we ought to watch what comes via the eye...Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
The shame, the putting on clothes, God making clothes for them to wear, the awareness of the knowledge of good and evil. All of these are Biblical.What change specifically in Scripture ?
No. We have always been similar to animals in a number of ways: legs, hair, hearts, kidneys, etc., etc. All I'm asking is if we had one additional similarity to animals before the Fall - no awareness of good and evil; thus, no shame over their nakedness.because they did not eat the forbidden fruit and animals do not have souls right
yes if that's what you are askingNo. We have always been similar to animals in a number of ways: legs, hair, hearts, kidneys, etc., etc. All I'm asking is if we had one additional similarity to animals before the Fall - no awareness of good and evil; thus, no shame over their nakedness.
but the animals do not have soulsNo. We have always been similar to animals in a number of ways: legs, hair, hearts, kidneys, etc., etc. All I'm asking is if we had one additional similarity to animals before the Fall - no awareness of good and evil; thus, no shame over their nakedness.
Nakeedness of soul is called as heart circumcision, where the soul is naked similar to cut off the foreskin of genital so that everybody is capable to see the inner foreskin, and the tools to circumcised the heart/liver is divination with dark arts (Ezekiel 21:21; Zechariah 10:2). So, the works of the darkness is revealing all hidden sins and makes them defile or altered the heart of men; that's why Adam & Eve woke up of their unconsciousness because Eve had been tempted by Lilith to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree of Kabbalah. But God, also used the reality and truth by using the darkness to bring all sinners to come to God and made them repent. God can benefit of both world (light & darkness) to glorify His own greatness, and made men see how far does mankind has lost from His sight and His commandments.Same thing most people today are ashamed of when they are seen naked. Let's not over think it.
Going to the pharmacy is engaging in the dark arts. Look up the word 'sorcerer' in your Bible translations - dispenser of medicines. We have all sought out the dark arts!dark arts
Yes; only humans have souls.only humans have souls that's why we are called living souls
Maybe; but, to say that will bring the Evangelicals out of the woodwork. Nevertheless, even if it is a mythology, the story is about ignorance of what is right and wrong, followed by enlightenment to what is right and wrong (Lucifer, after all, is symbolized as the morning star). After the enlightenment they feel shame (not before) and clothe themselves. God supports this behavior by making them clothing, too. God was helping humans avoid their feeling of shame by allowing clothing. There are clear evolutionary moments when humans began to wear clothing (lower hominids did not use clothing, as far as scientists can tell). Many have read this story and understood it to mean that the serpent was good, and God wanted to keep us ignorant. But, I do not agree with that reading. God said, "You may eat fruit from any tree in the garden." But, not the tree of Knowledge; "For God knows that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." So, we can clearly see that God has acknowledged that the tree of Knowledge caused us to "become like gods, knowing good and evil". Jesus referenced this godlikeness when they questioned him about His claiming to be God. Jesus said, "Ye are all gods". So, the question becomes, if the tree of Knowledge gave us something that seems good (the ability to distinguish between good and evil), and this quality made us more similar to the "gods", and even Jesus referenced this inheritance from the Fall, why did God not want us to possess this ability. I would say it was because we were not mature enough for this knowledge at that point in time. But, because of Satan, we received this Knowledge before we were mature enough to manage it. The 10 commandments, of course, were given so "that sin might increase" (Rom. 5:20). We have to ask, why would God want sin to increase? I believe Paul answered this: so that we would realize that we are in need of Christ's forgiveness (too weak to overcome sin without God's help). God has a plan; God is raising us like we raise children. He protects us from things that may be good, but that can hurt us if we are not prepared for it. We would not let a 5 year old ride an untamed horse, even if horse riding is a good thing. God is tending to our maturity throughout evolution and history. The next step, I believe, is what modern Christianity has left behind from the Gospels: turning the other cheek (pacifism is not common to many Christians), trusting God to meet our needs (not toiling to meet our needs; the birds of the air are still more trusting of God compared to modern Christians), not resisting evil (anti-abortionists are actually opposing God's words), having the power to move mountains (no real miracle-workers today; the Holy Spirit should be abounding, but none have faith), remembering that 'every day is the sabbath' (the kingdom of God is present here and now, not only in some distant future), the continued ignoring of why "there is no marriage in Heaven", and the taking of oaths in God's name (witnesses in court, every Christian marriage is initiated with this sin). Modern Christianity minimizes all these Biblical teachings, explains them all away as unnecessary or harmless.a mythology
i wonder if it might also be the quality of our "knowledge," too; we are easily deceived, and allow facts to substitute for knowledge quite easily i thinkSo, the question becomes, if the tree of Knowledge gave us something that seems good (the ability to distinguish between good and evil), and this quality made us more similar to the "gods", and even Jesus referenced this inheritance from the Fall, why did God not want us to possess this ability. I would say it was because we were not mature enough for this knowledge at that point in time. But, because of Satan, we received this Knowledge before we were mature enough to manage it.
but how comeSame thing most people today are ashamed of when they are seen naked. Let's not over think it.
Because all mankind doing the same sins with the fruit of science, we should not condemn ourselves. Those who are faint hearted are punished by their own, instead of be thankful to the Lord before we do everything in this life to glorify His name (Colossians 2:16-23; 1 Corinthians 8).Going to the pharmacy is engaging in the dark arts. Look up the word 'sorcerer' in your Bible translations - dispenser of medicines. We have all sought out the dark arts!