Anolther Leaven Fragment

[ronmorgen]

You are right Mr.Veteran that this doctrine is plainly spoken in scripture and needs no interpretation whereas pre triber’s (nothing personal) need to redefine words and do all manner of gymnastics to support their view. They usually end up relying on other less scholarly methods to avoid "losing the debate".

However you used the phrase "The Tribulation" in your response and that is not supported in scripture. Oh there'll be tribulation all right, but it is not clear how long. Keep in mind that it is the pre-trib dispensationalists who arrived at that number while they were twisting scriptures to prove their point. I know they speak of the seven days in Daniel, but it's not clearly enough connected to the tribulation of last days saints, and they have no other verse to show it is. By the way we are in that time now, just ask any Christian in the Republic of South Sudan where 2,000,000 have been slain by the beast of Islam in Northern Sudan.

By the way I wouldn’t waist much time with them unless they are truly inquiring. Most of them are out to divide and bring in discord.

Thank you for your service to God and country.

 

[Duckybill]

No. Our main argument is that the pretribulation rapture is a lie. Everything else is secondary to that.

Nobody here has proven that. That's why you guys keep making it personal implying that we are going to Hell. I believe in this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Since you can't prove a time of this event you really shouldn't be using the term "lie". That would be a lie in itself.

 

[TWC]

Nobody here has proven that. That's why you guys keep making it personal implying that we are going to Hell. I believe in this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Since you can't prove a time of this event you really shouldn't be using the term "lie". That would be a lie in itself.

Read this again.

It can, and has been proven by God's Holy Writ that Christ's return and our gathering to Him is after the tribulation He warned us of. It's been done several times on this forum simply from quoting Christ's Own Words...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

It's very important that we recognize that fact of Scripture.

Take off your rapture filter and read what the Bible says. The pretrib rapture isn't there.

 

[Duckybill]

TWC, your opinions are not proof. I could care less about the timing of the 'rapture'. My goal is to make it.

 

[TWC]

Matt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Duckybill]

Matt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Why would they meet the Lord in the air to immediately return? What are you saying?

 

[veteran]

Why would they meet the Lord in the air to immediately return? What are you saying?

TWC is asking you... what those 2 verses are saying.

 

[Duckybill]

TWC is asking you... what those 2 verses are saying.

Everyone here can read them, I assume. Your point?

 

[veteran]

Everyone here can read them, I assume. Your point?

What are those two verses saying?

 

[Duckybill]

What are those two verses saying?

I asked what your point is. If you know please elaborate.

 

[TWC]

Mark 13:12-13
Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hey, I used to believe in a pretrib rapture until the Lord taught me differently ( by His Spirit and through His word.) Believing some strange and carnal doctrine that makes it's appeal to our fear of pain and suffering isn't a sin in itself. Children naturally fear the unknown. The Lord however, doesn't want us to remain as children, but teaches us and gives us understanding so that we may be wise and act accordingly. Don't be surprised when people argue irrationally for such a doctrine. There's nothing rational about fear when you know God, but even children have to learn what love is about and more significantly, how to reason from such knowledge. To fear God is "the beginning of wisdom", but to love God is wisdom's fulfillment: "Perfect love casts out all fear."
Peace brothers, there is more than enough war in the world to deal with. The Lord will reveal the steps that we need to take when we need to take them. All we really need to do is to remain focused upon Him rather than upon the waters that threaten to overwhelm us. If Peter had understood this, he wouldn't have begun to sink when walking out upon the water to meet the Lord.
keep in mind that when people throw verses at you to support a false doctrine, it simply means that they don't understand. Men may teach, but only the Spirit of Truth, convinces men of the Truth, and this according to His timing and not our own.
I sometimes listen to extremely well educated Christian teachers on the radio (or now on podcasts) and I sometimes hear incredibly foolish things come out of their mouths. James, the brother of our Lord wrote about the tongue and how we all stumble with it. I consider that a dumb animal, a donkey, was empowered by God to speak to Balaam and to warn him of the angel blocking their way. I know a Pastor who jests about this and says that "if God can make an ass speak, how can I take pride in what I preach?" Yet, many do. I heard one such radio "personality" admit, very slowly, that after considering Jesus' own words he'd reached the conclusion that the church would indeed be here through the tribulation. He spoke so slowly and brokenly you'd think that he was confessing some great sin and the truth is that he was doing just that. It's hard to speak while you're swallowing your pride, and saying such a thing on international broadcasting had to be humbling. The real trepidation was not in having taught a false doctrine, but coming into opposition with respected peers. God forbid that we fear men (or loss of their acceptance)more than Him. Nothing that we say or do has any eternal value unless it is the Eternal that has done or said it through us. If we are well educated and empowered by God to preach or teach, we are still on a par with a "well educated" donkey. This is why we find the elders in God's throne room casting their crowns at the feet of our Lord. Whether we are used greatly by Him or little it is all of His grace and nothing more. Consider the parable of the workers hired throughout the hours of the day, the last receiving the same wages as the first. It didn't seem fair to the first that they should be paid the same inspite of their labors, but the Land owner chose to be gracious to all. There is no place for pride in the heart a servant; he only does that which is his duty to do. We were made for good works that He prepared for us, the rest is just for the fire.