Anolther Leaven Fragment

[TWC]

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Christ will descend from Heaven with his angels and with a trumpet call. These two passages are referring to the same event, but the first four words of Matthew 24:29 present a problem for the pretrib rapture.

 

[Amazing Grace]

No one else can judge anothers salvation. Only the Lord because he can look upon a persons heart.

So you judge people who do not agree on the Rapture Event. Some don't even believe in a Rapture Event let alone have some sort of timing difference (pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib).

Salvation is not based on our Rapture doctrine from what I have read in the Bible it is based on Repentance and What Christ did for us on the Cross to bring us Salvation/Eternal Life).

RO 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

RO 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, `Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or `Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Many of disagree in some specific areas of doctrine. We have different interpretations of the Bible. The only one that is essential for Salvation and becoming a Child of God is that of the Gospel. If we have others we disagree with but they hold to the Gospel then we are both Saved Believers. Condemning or Judging a brother or sister in Christ is not a good thing. Jesus warns us not to do it.

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

MT 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

MT 5:23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

MT 5:25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Elsewhere Jesus says the following as well:-

LK 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even `sinners' lend to `sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

LK 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

LK 6:39 He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

LK 6:41 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

I know we have severe disagreements here. It should not be so but that is how it is.

I'm not with clean hands here to my shame I too have been judgemental and for that I apologise. Reading this thread I saw how easy it is for us to be judgemental with one another.

Let us debate but without calling into question one anothers salvation. For only God knows the sincerity of our hearts and if we have truly come to Him.

 

[veteran]

When a Christian brother or sister is in danger, it is the duty of those in Christ that know better, to try and help them away from that danger. That is NOT about judging the person.

The Pre-trib secret rapture doctrine IS a dangerous doctrine. I've said that before elsewhere, and I will say it again. The Pre-trib secret rapture doctrine which began in 1830's Great Britain from the Edward Irving movement and John Darby, is a dangerous doctrine. Why?

Because that doctrine preaches directly against the timing God's Word gives for Christ's coming to gather His saints, which is after the tribulation (Matthew 24:28-31; Mark 13:24-27).

A believer on Christ Jesus MUST WILLINGLY DENY that Scripture for Christ's coming to gather us after the tribulation in order to believe the Pre-trib secret rapture doctrine. Those statements in Matt.24 and Mark 13 about that timing are direct statements by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Can't play games, or do mystical symbolic wizardry with those direct statements. Either the believer heeds them as written, or they don't.

But those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures are not the ONLY ones those on the Pre-trib rapture theory willingly deny. They try to do a switch also with the timing Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thess.2 for when Christ comes to gather His saints, which also declares Christ's coming after the coming of the Wicked one and the great falling away.

The progenitors of the Pre-tribulational rapture doctrine are leading many in their Churches directly to the false messiah who comes prior to our gathering to Christ Jesus. That is what the Pre-trib rapture doctrine is designed to do.

I would much rather those on the Pre-trib rapture doctrine be angry at me than let our Lord Jesus be angry with them when He returns. So nothing they might say against me is going to bother me in the least. And since they CANNOT prove their position by Scripture in God's Word, mocking is all they have left. Fine, let them mock. When they get tired, maybe, just maybe, they'll get more into God's Word for theirselves instead of putting their trust in a Church building, or a minister preaching that doctrine, or even an old family tradition their ancestors have held since the 1800's.

 

[veteran]

So you're saying you perfectly understand and keep all of the NT commands? There are many who are dogmatic about their favorite doctrines and judge others thereby. The fact is that you are EXTREMELY judgmental. It will come back to haunt you.

You're not in the position to throw out curses against me. If you're angry for my revealing the Truth of God's Word, then you need to take the matter up with Him. Probably wouldn't hurt for you to study The Bible for yourself more too, asking His help.

 

[Duckybill]

You're not in the position to throw out curses against me.

But it's ok for you to say that pre-tribbers will worship the anti-Christ.

If you're angry for my revealing the Truth of God's Word, then you need to take the matter up with Him.

Angry? Just pointing out that you are simply giving your opinions, nothing concrete.

Probably wouldn't hurt for you to study The Bible for yourself more too, asking His help.

Can't dispute that. But I must say that I doubt that there's anyone here who spends more time praying and studying the Bible than I do.

 

[veteran]

But it's ok for you to say that pre-tribbers will worship the anti-Christ.

Angry? Just pointing out that you are simply giving your opinions, nothing concrete.

Can't dispute that. But I must say that I doubt that there's anyone here who spends more time praying and studying the Bible than I do.

Trying to curse someone is a lot different than telling a brother or sister they're in danger for holding to a belief that is contrary to God's Word. Where's your moral sense, how can you claim to be a Christian and not know that?

Since you haven't yet realized the Pre-trib rapture idea is against what's written in God's Word, what do you think is preventing you from clearly heeding the Matt.24:28-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture as written? (I don't require an answer to that; ask yourself). Afterall, if the the Pre-trib doctrine is true, then why has no one here been able to prove it's God's Holy Writ?

 

[Duckybill]

Trying to curse someone is a lot different than telling a brother or sister they're in danger for holding to a belief that is contrary to God's Word.

What curse? Telling someone that he will received the same judgment from God as he dishes out is not trying to curse someone. It's a clear doctrine that Jesus taught.

Where's your moral sense, how can you claim to be a Christian and not know that?

And I could ask you the same question.

Since you haven't yet realized the Pre-trib rapture idea is against what's written in God's Word, (your opinion) what do you think is preventing you from clearly heeding the Matt.24:28-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture as written? (I don't require an answer to that; ask yourself).

And what makes you think there won't be more than one 'gathering together' of God's people?

Afterall, if the the Pre-trib doctrine is true, then why has no one here been able to prove it's God's Holy Writ?

And neither has anyone proven it to be wrong.

 

[veteran]

And neither has anyone proven it to be wrong.

Would you care to debate that with me? Is there a place here where we can have a one-on-one Scripture debate?

 

[Duckybill]

Would you care to debate that with me? Is there a place here where we can have a one-on-one Scripture debate?

What have we been doing?

 

[veteran]

What have we been doing?

OK then, but I think some ground rules are in order. It won't bother me if you show a bit of ire because of disgust at times. I'm mature enough to handle it. And I only will agree to using God's Word as the measuring source. I won't bring up Edward Irving and Darby in 1800's Britain.

Do you agree?

 

[TWC]

And neither has anyone proven it to be wrong.

The burden of proof is on your side.

 

[Duckybill]

OK then, but I think some ground rules are in order. It won't bother me if you show a bit of ire because of disgust at times.

Please let us know when you stop patting yourself on the back.

I'm mature enough to handle it. And I only will agree to using God's Word as the measuring source. I won't bring up Edward Irving and Darby in 1800's Britain.

Do you agree?

Agree to what? What we're already doing?

The burden of proof is on your side.

Lord have mercy!!!!!!!! You are the one's who are trying to prove, disprove something. You are the ones who are attacking pre-tribbers. You are the ones who are sure you are right!!! You are the ones condemning pre-tribbers to worshiping anti-Christ. Please stop this nonsense!

 

[TWC]

Lord have mercy!!!!!!!! You are the one's who are trying to prove, disprove something. You are the ones who are attacking pre-tribbers. You are the ones who are sure you are right!!! You are the ones condemning pre-tribbers to worshiping anti-Christ. Please stop this nonsense!

Most of the rapture threads on this board are started by pretribbers. This thread exists in response to the slew of others where pretribbers have constantly been taking scripture out of context to try and prove their doctrine. We're simply defending what the Bible says against what you want it to say.

If you have a problem with that, why don't you actually support your position without going outside of scripture.

 

[tomwebster]

... why don't you actually support your position without going outside of scripture.

TC, they cannot support their position with Scripture so they must try something else. What little Scripture they try to quote must be taken out of context.

 

[Duckybill]

TC, they cannot support their position with Scripture so they must try something else. What little Scripture they try to quote must be taken out of context.

You cannot support YOUR position with Scripture. Your main argument is that pre-tribbers will worship anti-Christ.

 

[tomwebster]

You cannot support YOUR position with Scripture. Your main argument is that pre-tribbers will worship anti-Christ.

Obviously you have not been reading our posts. Many though, have and they are the ones I'm concerned about.

 

[Duckybill]

Obviously you have not been reading our posts. Many though, have and they are the ones I'm concerned about.

I have made several comments about your posts. You don't remember?

 

[TWC]

You cannot support YOUR position with Scripture. Your main argument is that pre-tribbers will worship anti-Christ.

No. Our main argument is that the pretribulation rapture is a lie. Everything else is secondary to that.

 

[ronmorgen]

You cannot support YOUR position with Scripture. Your main argument is that pre-tribbers will worship anti-Christ.

Maybe not, but if you don't believe the scriptural evidence supporting a-millennialism, what use is it for me to give you more scripture. I'd prefer to drive home the main subject first. There is overwhelming proof that on the last day when Jesus returns in his glory, all the dead will rise, the saints will be rewarded with glorious bodies, and sinners will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Resurrection to life, and to judgment on the "Last Day".​

"This is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:39

"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day". John 12:48

 

[veteran]

It can, and has been proven by God's Holy Writ that Christ's return and our gathering to Him is after the tribulation He warned us of. It's been done several times on this forum simply from quoting Christ's Own Words...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

It's very important that we recognize that fact of Scripture.