I use to think this was the rapture, but it did not make sense when I read vs. 36-44. It compares to the day of Noah when they were taken away. They were punished with the flood-the ones taken away. I am still studing the end times and the rapture, but this verse did cause me trouble when I tried to defend the view of the rapture.
Another end time question?
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No worries Donnie, thanks
Thanks for the links, Kriss, I'll take a look when I have a chancesetfree, so you're saying that by "taken away" you mean death?
Fair enough. Now that I think about it, I've always been dubious about the Biblical basis of the Rapture, but since it is such a widely held belief, I've never overly questioned it. Me=lame!
tim_from_pa
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(setfree;47590)
If the rapture takes place as some believe and the Holy Spirit leaves with the church as it is taught...How will there be saved people during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit?I came across this and it is puzzling me....
I'll stick my neck out on this. The Holy Spirit is God, and as God is omnipresent and cannot be removed from anywhere. Otherwise, who is going to empower the 2 witnesses in Revelation? Yes, there will be people saved during the Tribulation as the gospel of the Kingdom is preached, by the two witnesses and the 144,000 (the Manchild). These people are the saints mentioned in Revelation. And the elect in the gospels and Revelation in the end times is Israel. (i.e. I will gather my elect) and the quote is an illusion to Isaiah and the prophets often confused with Christians. One has to remember there is an elect of grace, and an elect of race.The four gospels and Revelation can be seen as directed to Israel in hopes that they believe on Christ and are converted. The epistles (esp of Paul) are parenthetical and involve the "wild olive branch" the Gentiles graphed into the commonwealth of Israel along with those of Israel that believe. Then Revelation switches back to Israel and those saved during the tribulation as the parenthesis is now past and gone.
If the rapture takes place as some believe and the Holy Spirit leaves with the church as it is taught...How will there be saved people during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit?I came across this and it is puzzling me....
I'll stick my neck out on this. The Holy Spirit is God, and as God is omnipresent and cannot be removed from anywhere. Otherwise, who is going to empower the 2 witnesses in Revelation? Yes, there will be people saved during the Tribulation as the gospel of the Kingdom is preached, by the two witnesses and the 144,000 (the Manchild). These people are the saints mentioned in Revelation. And the elect in the gospels and Revelation in the end times is Israel. (i.e. I will gather my elect) and the quote is an illusion to Isaiah and the prophets often confused with Christians. One has to remember there is an elect of grace, and an elect of race.The four gospels and Revelation can be seen as directed to Israel in hopes that they believe on Christ and are converted. The epistles (esp of Paul) are parenthetical and involve the "wild olive branch" the Gentiles graphed into the commonwealth of Israel along with those of Israel that believe. Then Revelation switches back to Israel and those saved during the tribulation as the parenthesis is now past and gone.
(medicalmatt;48214)
Alright, Alright...I tentatively reject the doctrine of the Rapture.Scary!
I know Jesus is coming back for us. Some people get very hot and bothered about whether it will be post... mid... or pre-tribulation. I haven't really gotten to concerned with it myself. Though, there certainly nothing wrong with discussing it. Each may have their own Biblical basis for their belief, but the way I see it is that none the ways it could happen effects the fact that Jesus Christ was crucified and He will return. Doctrinally, it doesn't effect The Gospel to believe one way or the other (post, mid, or pre).I do like to read from people who do discuss it though... but I think it's important to keep in mind. Plus, when the time comes, it will be good to know the signs of the times that Jesus spoke about.
Alright, Alright...I tentatively reject the doctrine of the Rapture.Scary!
I know Jesus is coming back for us. Some people get very hot and bothered about whether it will be post... mid... or pre-tribulation. I haven't really gotten to concerned with it myself. Though, there certainly nothing wrong with discussing it. Each may have their own Biblical basis for their belief, but the way I see it is that none the ways it could happen effects the fact that Jesus Christ was crucified and He will return. Doctrinally, it doesn't effect The Gospel to believe one way or the other (post, mid, or pre).I do like to read from people who do discuss it though... but I think it's important to keep in mind. Plus, when the time comes, it will be good to know the signs of the times that Jesus spoke about.
(treeoflife;48221)
I know Jesus is coming back for us. Some people get very hot and bothered about whether it will be post... mid... or pre-tribulation. I haven't really gotten to concerned with it myself. Though, there certainly nothing wrong with discussing it. Each may have their own Biblical basis for their belief, but the way I see it is that none the ways it could happen effects the fact that Jesus Christ was crucified and He will return. Doctrinally, it doesn't effect The Gospel to believe one way or the other (post, mid, or pre).I do like to read from people who do discuss it though... but I think it's important to keep in mind. Plus, when the time comes, it will be good to know the signs of the times that Jesus spoke about.
You are absoultely right about him coming back at least thats one doctrine we do not agrue about
Keep in mind he only says he will return once anything else is teaching of men God never had to remove Daniel from the fire to protect him and he will do the same for belivers today God protect us now as he did the Hebrews in Eygpt "When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you." Passover is the time when God will destroy His enemies, but He will pass over those that love and trust Him. The blood on the post signifies the true blood that was shed on the cross at Calvary. Christ was the lamb slain for one and all times.That Lamb that was slain on the cross at Calvary, was slain so that anything wicked must pass over you and your house, even in our day. Jesus promised you and I that when we see and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ, and have faith and follow Him and His Word, the judgments that come on those that are not of God will pass right over you. Keep it straight in your mind, "Passover" is of God, for Christ became our PassoverHe will only return once at the last and 7th trump what does he say of this 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. There is no need for a pre-trib Rapture it is not written what is written is Christ blood will protect us and when he arrives we will be changed to spirit bodies. So your faith is all the Christian needs.. not so called secret rapture doctrine
I know Jesus is coming back for us. Some people get very hot and bothered about whether it will be post... mid... or pre-tribulation. I haven't really gotten to concerned with it myself. Though, there certainly nothing wrong with discussing it. Each may have their own Biblical basis for their belief, but the way I see it is that none the ways it could happen effects the fact that Jesus Christ was crucified and He will return. Doctrinally, it doesn't effect The Gospel to believe one way or the other (post, mid, or pre).I do like to read from people who do discuss it though... but I think it's important to keep in mind. Plus, when the time comes, it will be good to know the signs of the times that Jesus spoke about.
You are absoultely right about him coming back at least thats one doctrine we do not agrue about
Keep in mind he only says he will return once anything else is teaching of men God never had to remove Daniel from the fire to protect him and he will do the same for belivers today God protect us now as he did the Hebrews in Eygpt "When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you." Passover is the time when God will destroy His enemies, but He will pass over those that love and trust Him. The blood on the post signifies the true blood that was shed on the cross at Calvary. Christ was the lamb slain for one and all times.That Lamb that was slain on the cross at Calvary, was slain so that anything wicked must pass over you and your house, even in our day. Jesus promised you and I that when we see and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ, and have faith and follow Him and His Word, the judgments that come on those that are not of God will pass right over you. Keep it straight in your mind, "Passover" is of God, for Christ became our PassoverHe will only return once at the last and 7th trump what does he say of this 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. There is no need for a pre-trib Rapture it is not written what is written is Christ blood will protect us and when he arrives we will be changed to spirit bodies. So your faith is all the Christian needs.. not so called secret rapture doctrine(kriss;48252)
You are absoultely right about him coming back at least thats one doctrine we do not agrue about Keep in mind he only says he will return once anything else is teaching of men God never had to remove Daniel from the fire to protect him and he will do the same for belivers today God protect us now as he did the Hebrews in Eygpt "When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you." Passover is the time when God will destroy His enemies, but He will pass over those that love and trust Him. The blood on the post signifies the true blood that was shed on the cross at Calvary. Christ was the lamb slain for one and all times.That Lamb that was slain on the cross at Calvary, was slain so that anything wicked must pass over you and your house, even in our day. Jesus promised you and I that when we see and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ, and have faith and follow Him and His Word, the judgments that come on those that are not of God will pass right over you. Keep it straight in your mind, "Passover" is of God, for Christ became our PassoverHe will only return once at the last and 7th trump what does he say of this 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. There is no need for a pre-trib Rapture it is not written what is written is Christ blood will protect us and when he arrives we will be changed to spirit bodies. So your faith is all the Christian needs.. not so called secret rapture doctrine
how ever noah had to prepare ,and prepare he did .we do need faith but god is ok with many dying in his name or suffering.believe what the bible says we are aloud to prepare not in fear but as god allows us to be open to his instruction..proverbs 30;25 the ant prepares for the winter ,jesus said may our fight not be in the winter.we are allowed to prepare if not for ourselfs but for many that will turn to us threw the lord .to assist that maybe there faith that leads them to us that have a part that may help them.also having faith to be in the right spot at the right time....
You are absoultely right about him coming back at least thats one doctrine we do not agrue about
Keep in mind he only says he will return once anything else is teaching of men God never had to remove Daniel from the fire to protect him and he will do the same for belivers today God protect us now as he did the Hebrews in Eygpt "When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you." Passover is the time when God will destroy His enemies, but He will pass over those that love and trust Him. The blood on the post signifies the true blood that was shed on the cross at Calvary. Christ was the lamb slain for one and all times.That Lamb that was slain on the cross at Calvary, was slain so that anything wicked must pass over you and your house, even in our day. Jesus promised you and I that when we see and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ, and have faith and follow Him and His Word, the judgments that come on those that are not of God will pass right over you. Keep it straight in your mind, "Passover" is of God, for Christ became our PassoverHe will only return once at the last and 7th trump what does he say of this 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. There is no need for a pre-trib Rapture it is not written what is written is Christ blood will protect us and when he arrives we will be changed to spirit bodies. So your faith is all the Christian needs.. not so called secret rapture doctrinehow ever noah had to prepare ,and prepare he did .we do need faith but god is ok with many dying in his name or suffering.believe what the bible says we are aloud to prepare not in fear but as god allows us to be open to his instruction..proverbs 30;25 the ant prepares for the winter ,jesus said may our fight not be in the winter.we are allowed to prepare if not for ourselfs but for many that will turn to us threw the lord .to assist that maybe there faith that leads them to us that have a part that may help them.also having faith to be in the right spot at the right time....
Kriss,Well, that is really very helpful. I'll keep that in mind.I have some friends who have been very adament about a pre-trib rapture because we are being saved from judgment. I try to enlighten them (as I say
) to the fact that the judgment we are saved from, in Christ, is the 2nd death, and that Christians go through all kinds of trials. I've even said that I would hope God would leave me on earth in such an event... to suffer for Him, and to possibly see other's to Christ.In any case though, I do think the verses you gave in reference to the last trump are powerful ones to when the rapture will occur.He's coming back for sure! No matter what! :shepard:
(Wakka;47621)
Because people are expecting for Jesus to come first and take them away.
Thessalonians tells us that we will meet Christ "IN THE AIR"...There is NOTHING in Scripture that suggests that Christ will come to Earth for the Rapture, but that the "True" believers in Christ will be 'changed...in the twinkling of an eye', and meet Him...but not on Earth...so the idea that many Christians will be fooled into believing that the Antichrist is Jesus, is absolutely ludicrous.....
Because people are expecting for Jesus to come first and take them away.
Thessalonians tells us that we will meet Christ "IN THE AIR"...There is NOTHING in Scripture that suggests that Christ will come to Earth for the Rapture, but that the "True" believers in Christ will be 'changed...in the twinkling of an eye', and meet Him...but not on Earth...so the idea that many Christians will be fooled into believing that the Antichrist is Jesus, is absolutely ludicrous.....
Ok. I understand 1 Thes 4:13-17 , 1 Cor 15:51-53 and 2 Thes 2:1-4. What I can't seem to find in Revelation is when the son of perdition is revealed and the last trumpet sounds in relation to the tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (King James Version)51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (King James Version)1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.Donnie
The son of Pertion is Satan He comes at the End of the 5th/6th trump Woe unto earth for the Devil,Satan has come down to you Satan is the son of pertion he comes first this is the tribulation. The son of Pertdition, Satan issues in the Tribulation Christ comes at the 7th trump and defeats the Devil, Satan Son of Perdition .Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Thanks Kriss. Confused me more. Rev 9:1 5th trump soundsRev 9:13 6th trump soundsRev 11:15 7th (and last) trump soundsRev 12:12 son of perdition revealedin that order, the 7th trump sounds before the son of perdition is revealed.
Your welome AnytimeDonnie the son of Perdition is Satan he is the Antichrist,the devil the man of lawlessness
Donnie the son of Perdition is Satan he is the Antichrist,the devil the man of lawlessnessWhat 2 thess says is the gathering to our Lord is not till after the tribulation when Satanthe devil is kicked to earth in the 5th/6th trump Christ says he will not return till after these things happen we are to wait till the 7th trump
Sorry Kriss. I don't mean to argue or seem stupid but I do not see where the son of perdition is revealed anywhere between Rev 9:1 when the 5/6 trump sounds and Rev 11:15 when the 7th trump sounds. I believe you are correct in your teachings about the rapture but I am not seeing it clearly.Donnie
Its ok
I dont think you are arguing I think you are confused so ask untill you understand. God calls people by names to depict their personalities for Example: /Christ is called the lamb,savior, Son ect.Lucifer is also called many names he is called Satan,the Devil, the man of sin, the son of perdition they are all the same person Satan is the son of perdition http://www.christianityboard.com/son-perdition-t6968.html
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.Perdition means: apōleia1) destroying, utter destructiona) of vessels2) a perishing, ruin, destructiona) of money
the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hellGod uses this name because he is saying that the Son of perdition Satan is the only prejudged to utter destruction
Thanks again Kriss. Now I have all the pieces, maybe I can find some quiet time to put them together. No more "mysteries" for me for a few days.Donnie
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