If the rapture takes place as some believe and the Holy Spirit leaves with the church as it is taught...How will there be saved people during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit?I came across this and it is puzzling me....
Another end time question?
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(setfree;47590)
If the rapture takes place as some believe and the Holy Spirit leaves with the church as it is taught...How will there be saved people during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit?I came across this and it is puzzling me....
I do believe in a rapture of the church but my understanding from the bible is that the Holy Spirit doesn't leave with the church. If the Holy spirit is able to be in all of us at the same time, I am sure He is able to be on earth and with us at the same time. I hope this helps.
If the rapture takes place as some believe and the Holy Spirit leaves with the church as it is taught...How will there be saved people during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit?I came across this and it is puzzling me....
I do believe in a rapture of the church but my understanding from the bible is that the Holy Spirit doesn't leave with the church. If the Holy spirit is able to be in all of us at the same time, I am sure He is able to be on earth and with us at the same time. I hope this helps.
(Nyoka;47593)
I do believe in a rapture of the church but my understanding from the bible is that the Holy Spirit doesn't leave with the church. If the Holy spirit is able to be in all of us at the same time, I am sure He is able to be on earth and with us at the same time. I hope this helps.
Then in 2 Thess. 2:7....Who is he who not letteth?Where is he taken out of the way?
I do believe in a rapture of the church but my understanding from the bible is that the Holy Spirit doesn't leave with the church. If the Holy spirit is able to be in all of us at the same time, I am sure He is able to be on earth and with us at the same time. I hope this helps.
Then in 2 Thess. 2:7....Who is he who not letteth?Where is he taken out of the way?
The Bible is quite clear that there is no rapture before the tribualtion. Notice Matt 24:29, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light,...and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky...and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky...and they will gather together His elect...from one end of the sky to the other." Then in 2 Thess 1:6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire...(v.10)...when he comes to be glorified in His saints on that day." Look at the thread on the Problems of Pretribulationism, or see it at my site. www.expressright.com
The rapture theory is a lie. Let me explain to you clearly:There will be NO pre-tribulation rapture!Matthew 24:22-3021 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Jesus said it Himself. There will NOT be a pretrib rapture!As for the time of length, Matthew 24:22 says that the days shall be shortened. How long will it be shortened for?Revelation 9:5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.Revelation 9:10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
HOW DID WE GET THE IDEA OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE?By Sandy FiedlerHow did we get the idea that a secret, imminent, pre-tribulation rapture will save the church from this evil world? Despite being reared in southern fundamentalist churches that taught this doctrine, I never could fully grasp it, although I tried.While reading THE RAPTURE CULT by Robert L. Pierce (Signal Point Press, 138 Cunningham Lane, Signal Mountain TN 37377; $3.00ea), I found missing pieces of this puzzling doctrine.Following is a brief explanation, summarized from the book, describing how we got the doctrine.To understand, we must return to the 19th century British Isles. In 1830 in Port Glasgow, Scotland, Margaret Macdonald expressed her belief that scripture taught that Christians would be raptured, or translated, from the earth before the Great Tribulation. This is the first time that anyone in Christian history had distinguished two stages of the Second Coming: the first stage, in which Christians are taken out, and the second stage, in which Jesus returns to earth.Two religious sects in Britain took up Margaret’s idea. One was the Catholic Apostolic Church headed by Edward Irving (1792-1834). This sect believed that because the Second Coming was imminent, they had the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy and speaking in tongues, as the apostles did.The other group that adopted Margaret Macdonald’s idea was the Brethren or Plymouth Brethren organized by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). Darby was educated as a lawyer, became an Anglican priest in 1826, but went on to found the Brethren in 1830. Darby visited the Macdonald home in 1830 and first presented the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine soon thereafter. The new doctrine was not received unanimously."The Roots of Fundamentalism," by Ernest R. Sandeen, in discussing the history of the Brethren, says that Darby introduced the idea of a secret rapture of the church and a gap in prophetic fulfillment between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel. These beliefs became basic to the system of theology known as dispensationalism.From 1862 to 1877, Darby lived in and traveled throughout the United States and Canada, spreading his message. He was a very appealing speaker and also intolerant to criticism. At first he tried to win members of existing Protestant congregations to his sect, but met with little success. He then spread his end-times message to influential clergymen and laymen in churches in major cities without insisting they leave their denominations.Two of his converts were James Hall Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis and Adoniram Judson Gordon, pastor of Clarendon St. Baptist Church in Boston. These two men became leaders of the movement which spread the doctrine throughout the northeast and Midwest during the last quarter of the 19th century. Dwight L. Moody also accepted the doctrine.From 1883-1897, each summer at Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario, James H. Brookes led conferences which spread the doctrine very successfully to conservative church leaders of America who were concerned about the liberal influence of "higher criticism" that was making inroads into churches. The new message spread from the leaders down to the local congregations.In 1897 there was a split of conference participants into two groups: a pro-Darby faction led by Arno C. Gaebelein and Cyrus I. Scofield, and an anti-Darby faction led by Robert Cameron. A five-year "paper war," in which each side wrote articles blasting the other side, ended in a win by the pro-Darby forces.Many of the anti-Darby forces simply retired from the scene to avoid controversy or died of old age without a new line of advocates to replace them.The pro-Darby force was aggressive at organizing new conferences and publicizing their message, which appealed to the wishful thinking of the masses. The foundation of the Darbyite message was that when evil is seen in society, Christians are to rejoice because that is a sign of the imminent return of Christ. To illustrate, there was even some concern that at the outset of the United States’ involvement in WWI that Americans would not respond because they might think they were fighting against the evil which was needed to bring Jesus back. A paralyzing religious neutralism had set in.Contrary to the time of the Revolutionary War when pastors strongly preached that citizens should battle the evil British oppression, 19th century pastors refrained from preaching topics drawn from current events and ceased to teach their flocks to be the light of the world. Rather, Christians withdrew into the four walls of the church building and let society and government run its godless course.The Darby doctrine can be seen, for example, in a 1933 issue of the fundamentalist Moody Monthly, which said that Christians did not need to take a stand on a hot topic at the time, whether or not to recognize atheistic Communist USSR, because the Second Coming might quickly solve the problem.Religious neutralism became the norm for Christian churches until the late 20th century when many Christians began taking a stand against evils in society like abortion and immorality in government leaders.The pre-trib rapture doctrine was further spread by Cyrus Scofield’s Reference Bible. Began in 1903 with unusually generous funding from wealthy businessmen, it was completed in 1909 and published and promoted by the very prestigious Oxford University Press. It is basically a King James Version with extensive footnote commentaries by Cyrus Scofield and consulting editors.In every passage that could possibly to related to end-times, the pre-trib rapture doctrine is espoused. Many readers throughout the years have been unaware of the difference between words of scriptura and opinions of Scofield. This version of the Bible has been so promoted that its views have affected every church and town in America.Geographically, the doctrine moved from its original foothold in the large cities of New York, Boston, Chicago, and St. Louis to the northeast and Midwest. Later it spread to the West and South, where it is very strong still. The doctrine is not taught in the liberal Protestant denominations but is taught in independent nondenominational and full-gospel churches and in some evangelical churches. Fundamentalist churches do not realize how relatively new the doctrines are.The Scofieldian doctrine is promoted unceasingly in the print media, radio, and TV, while more traditional views are hard to find. These media present the doctrine with a mindset that takes for granted that the entire audience believes it unquestioningly.In addition, Christian and secular bookstores have carried many titles promoting this view, an early example of which is Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth, first published in 1970, tying in the Second Coming with the formation of the state of Israel. As the millennium nears, hundreds of nonfiction and fiction end-times books appear. In fact, most national fundamental Christian leaders have a book or tape series on the Scofieldian view of the end-times.Also, most Christian TV and radio programs are produced by those with this point of view. Any given program is peppered with catch-phrases about the impending rapture and the Second Coming.Parallels are drawn between biblical prophecy of end-times and current events. However, this kind of thinking is not new. Repeatedly throughout world history, people have looked about them at conditions far worse than what we see today and have thought the end must surely be near. But it wasn’t. Incidentally, those who read the Bible in one hand and the Newsweek in the other should know that historically, many have believed that the book of Revelation was John’s message of warning to the Christians of his day of horrible impending persecution from Nero (whose name in Hebrew is 666) and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70A.D. and has therefore largely been fulfilled.There are more than two sides to a question. If one side says that the Bible is myth and the second side says that the Bible is the Word of God that teaches that the Second Coming is imminent, is there no other point of view possible?There is at least one more side.Millions of Christians in America and the world historically and presently believe a third view — that the Bible is the Word of God which teaches that only God knows when the Second Coming will occur. Meanwhile, Christians are to carry on with joy in the real world, living lives that glorify God. This encompasses the crux of Protestant beliefs prior to 1830.The truth sets us free.Source: http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm
It's really sad how many people believe in a pre-rapture. When the A/C comes, they'll most likely be fooled into following him.
Now, I've always believed in the Rapture. However, I've been reading the material on this site about how this may not exist, and I am definitely questioning it. I am curious, though, as to why you say people who believe in the Rapture will "most likely" be fooled by the Antichrist?
(medicalmatt;47616)
Now, I've always believed in the Rapture. However, I've been reading the material on this site about how this may not exist, and I am definitely questioning it. I am curious, though, as to why you say people who believe in the Rapture will "most likely" be fooled by the Antichrist?
Because people are expecting for Jesus to come first and take them away. But in reality, once terrible things do occur (and they are starting to occur) people will cry out for a savior. The A/C will come, and he will make things better for a short while. He will also profess himself as god, and he will do many signs and wonders. People will think that he's Christ, and they will follow him. In reality, Christ will come after the great tribulation (after the peace treaty ends, he will persecute those who do not follow him), and Christ will come in a cloud. Those that stay faithful and were not fooled by the antichrist will receive a crown and will reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom.So here is a time line.1. Now2. World goes into chaos (starting to happen right now)3. A/C will come into power and provide peace and stability.4. The A/C will proclaim himself god, people will follow him.5. The war of Armageddon breaks out and the A/C will persecute Christians for not worshiping him.6. Christ immediately comes.7. All Christians (and those who survived the great tribulation) will reign in the Millennial Kingdom.The millennial kingdom is for 1000 years, and it's going to be Christ establishing a kingdom on earth. The Christians will be immortal and we'll rule with Christ. The non Christians will just live and die on the earth like we do today. It is said that the non Christians will be survivors of the Great Tribulation.I'm pretty sure I've got the details all correct.
Now, I've always believed in the Rapture. However, I've been reading the material on this site about how this may not exist, and I am definitely questioning it. I am curious, though, as to why you say people who believe in the Rapture will "most likely" be fooled by the Antichrist?
Because people are expecting for Jesus to come first and take them away. But in reality, once terrible things do occur (and they are starting to occur) people will cry out for a savior. The A/C will come, and he will make things better for a short while. He will also profess himself as god, and he will do many signs and wonders. People will think that he's Christ, and they will follow him. In reality, Christ will come after the great tribulation (after the peace treaty ends, he will persecute those who do not follow him), and Christ will come in a cloud. Those that stay faithful and were not fooled by the antichrist will receive a crown and will reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom.So here is a time line.1. Now2. World goes into chaos (starting to happen right now)3. A/C will come into power and provide peace and stability.4. The A/C will proclaim himself god, people will follow him.5. The war of Armageddon breaks out and the A/C will persecute Christians for not worshiping him.6. Christ immediately comes.7. All Christians (and those who survived the great tribulation) will reign in the Millennial Kingdom.The millennial kingdom is for 1000 years, and it's going to be Christ establishing a kingdom on earth. The Christians will be immortal and we'll rule with Christ. The non Christians will just live and die on the earth like we do today. It is said that the non Christians will be survivors of the Great Tribulation.I'm pretty sure I've got the details all correct.
OK, so what you are saying, is that Christians who believe in the Rapture will most likely to be fooledby the Antichrist, because they are expecting to not be around when he shows up on the world scene. I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. The Rapture may be a false doctrine, but I don't see it as being harmful in that way. I know of many Rapture-believers who believe that the Antchrist at least MAY appear on the scene before the Rapture occurs. I don't think believing in the Rapture necessarily means ignorance of signs of the End Times, including ways to identify the Antichrist.More later
(medicalmatt;47633)
OK, so what you are saying, is that Christians who believe in the Rapture will most likely to be fooledby the Antichrist, because they are expecting to not be around when he shows up on the world scene. I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. The Rapture may be a false doctrine, but I don't see it as being harmful in that way. I know of many Rapture-believers who believe that the Antchrist at least MAY appear on the scene before the Rapture occurs. I don't think believing in the Rapture necessarily means ignorance of signs of the End Times, including ways to identify the Antichrist.More later
Amen to this post, I too am questioning my teaching on the pre-trib, but I will not be decieved by the antichrist. Everyone seems to be so condemning when I ask questions concerning the end times. I am searching this out and I am not sold on the pre-rapture as before, but I have questions................If people would have read my questions it was directed more to those that believe in the rapture, because this is one question that has brought me to question it. I was wanting those that believe in the rapture to answer it. Like Kriss said I can not find the answer......so those that defend the rapture please reply....if there is one.....
OK, so what you are saying, is that Christians who believe in the Rapture will most likely to be fooledby the Antichrist, because they are expecting to not be around when he shows up on the world scene. I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. The Rapture may be a false doctrine, but I don't see it as being harmful in that way. I know of many Rapture-believers who believe that the Antchrist at least MAY appear on the scene before the Rapture occurs. I don't think believing in the Rapture necessarily means ignorance of signs of the End Times, including ways to identify the Antichrist.More later
Amen to this post, I too am questioning my teaching on the pre-trib, but I will not be decieved by the antichrist. Everyone seems to be so condemning when I ask questions concerning the end times. I am searching this out and I am not sold on the pre-rapture as before, but I have questions................If people would have read my questions it was directed more to those that believe in the rapture, because this is one question that has brought me to question it. I was wanting those that believe in the rapture to answer it. Like Kriss said I can not find the answer......so those that defend the rapture please reply....if there is one.....
(setfree;47594)
Then in 2 Thess. 2:7....Who is he who not letteth?Where is he taken out of the way?
Those that believe in the rapture......can you answer this question?
Then in 2 Thess. 2:7....Who is he who not letteth?Where is he taken out of the way?
Those that believe in the rapture......can you answer this question?
I must be losing it or have been half asleep I completly misread your question SetfreeI apoligize The answer is Michael Rev.12 w/the help of God hold Satan back til the appointed timeThe "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].
(Wakka;47621)
Because people are expecting for Jesus to come first and take them away. But in reality, once terrible things do occur (and they are starting to occur) people will cry out for a savior. The A/C will come, and he will make things better for a short while. He will also profess himself as god, and he will do many signs and wonders. People will think that he's Christ, and they will follow him. In reality, Christ will come after the great tribulation (after the peace treaty ends, he will persecute those who do not follow him), and Christ will come in a cloud. Those that stay faithful and were not fooled by the antichrist will receive a crown and will reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom.So here is a time line.1. Now2. World goes into chaos (starting to happen right now)3. A/C will come into power and provide peace and stability.4. The A/C will proclaim himself god, people will follow him.5. The war of Armageddon breaks out and the A/C will persecute Christians for not worshiping him.6. Christ immediately comes.7. All Christians (and those who survived the great tribulation) will reign in the Millennial Kingdom.The millennial kingdom is for 1000 years, and it's going to be Christ establishing a kingdom on earth. The Christians will be immortal and we'll rule with Christ. The non Christians will just live and die on the earth like we do today. It is said that the non Christians will be survivors of the Great Tribulation.I'm pretty sure I've got the details all correct.
The only place I would disagree with Wakka here is that there will be no flesh left 1 Cor.15 says all will be changed believer or not but as he points out the biever alone rules with Christ in the millieum the unbelievers or those who followed Antichrist will have to be tested again when Satan is losed again for a little while.1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, All means ALL 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The last trump is the 7th 1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Because people are expecting for Jesus to come first and take them away. But in reality, once terrible things do occur (and they are starting to occur) people will cry out for a savior. The A/C will come, and he will make things better for a short while. He will also profess himself as god, and he will do many signs and wonders. People will think that he's Christ, and they will follow him. In reality, Christ will come after the great tribulation (after the peace treaty ends, he will persecute those who do not follow him), and Christ will come in a cloud. Those that stay faithful and were not fooled by the antichrist will receive a crown and will reign with Christ in the Millennial kingdom.So here is a time line.1. Now2. World goes into chaos (starting to happen right now)3. A/C will come into power and provide peace and stability.4. The A/C will proclaim himself god, people will follow him.5. The war of Armageddon breaks out and the A/C will persecute Christians for not worshiping him.6. Christ immediately comes.7. All Christians (and those who survived the great tribulation) will reign in the Millennial Kingdom.The millennial kingdom is for 1000 years, and it's going to be Christ establishing a kingdom on earth. The Christians will be immortal and we'll rule with Christ. The non Christians will just live and die on the earth like we do today. It is said that the non Christians will be survivors of the Great Tribulation.I'm pretty sure I've got the details all correct.
The only place I would disagree with Wakka here is that there will be no flesh left 1 Cor.15 says all will be changed believer or not but as he points out the biever alone rules with Christ in the millieum the unbelievers or those who followed Antichrist will have to be tested again when Satan is losed again for a little while.1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, All means ALL 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The last trump is the 7th 1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(kriss;47655)
The only place I would disagree with Wakka here is that there will be no flesh left 1 Cor.15 says all will be changed believer or not but as he points out the believer alone rules with Christ in the millennium the unbelievers or those who followed Antichrist will have to be tested again when Satan is loosed again for a little while.
when that time comes, what will happen to the Christians that did stay faithful?... and for that matter, where does Christ go? does He take us into Heaven with Him or do we stay on Earth while we watch the others who still don't beleive be tested?
The only place I would disagree with Wakka here is that there will be no flesh left 1 Cor.15 says all will be changed believer or not but as he points out the believer alone rules with Christ in the millennium the unbelievers or those who followed Antichrist will have to be tested again when Satan is loosed again for a little while.
when that time comes, what will happen to the Christians that did stay faithful?... and for that matter, where does Christ go? does He take us into Heaven with Him or do we stay on Earth while we watch the others who still don't beleive be tested?
All are changed to spirit bodies the ones that overcome to the end will reign and rule with Christ, They are called the first resurrected And Christ will rule here on earth the unbelivers that are deserving will be taught during the millieum then Satan is loosed for a short season to test those who did not take part in the first resurrection Then comes final Judgement of all this is called the white throne Judgement and it comes after the millieum Then there is a new heaven and new earth and we will live and reign with Christ forever.
Even though I do believe in a pretrib rapture I am also more than willing to stay here for as long as Jesus wants me too. Even through the tribulation if need be. To be honest I don't think it matters weather you believe in a pre, post, mid or no rapture as God has His plans in place and they will happen weather we are right or wrong on it.
(Nyoka;47685)
Even though I do believe in a pretrib rapture I am also more than willing to stay here for as long as Jesus wants me too. Even through the tribulation if need be. To be honest I don't think it matters weather you believe in a pre, post, mid or no rapture as God has His plans in place and they will happen weather we are right or wrong on it.
True, but he also did not write his word for us to be ignorant. The truth is there we just have to dig it out! But some things are not for us....
Even though I do believe in a pretrib rapture I am also more than willing to stay here for as long as Jesus wants me too. Even through the tribulation if need be. To be honest I don't think it matters weather you believe in a pre, post, mid or no rapture as God has His plans in place and they will happen weather we are right or wrong on it.
True, but he also did not write his word for us to be ignorant. The truth is there we just have to dig it out! But some things are not for us....
(setfree;47689)
True, but he also did not write his word for us to be ignorant. The truth is there we just have to dig it out! But some things are not for us....
True. Some things He has left in His hands. We can study them and come to a conclusion on them but it doesn't always mean we are right on it. The way I look at it is that we need to believe that Jesus paid the price for us on the cross, rose again from the dead and is seated with God in heaven. Everything else is extra to this. I do study the bible and learn from it but as long as we are on this earth we are still looking through a glass and only seeing part of the whole thing. Once we are with Him then we will know and see it completely.
True, but he also did not write his word for us to be ignorant. The truth is there we just have to dig it out! But some things are not for us....
True. Some things He has left in His hands. We can study them and come to a conclusion on them but it doesn't always mean we are right on it. The way I look at it is that we need to believe that Jesus paid the price for us on the cross, rose again from the dead and is seated with God in heaven. Everything else is extra to this. I do study the bible and learn from it but as long as we are on this earth we are still looking through a glass and only seeing part of the whole thing. Once we are with Him then we will know and see it completely.
It is not important to a Christian's salvation or Christian walk in the here and now, which view he or she holds. Neither is it important what he or she believes about Prophecy generally, except for really believing that there will be a Second Coming. Prior to the Tribulation, the only way it can be a problem is if the Christian makes a big issue of arguing about it. But it will be important to all Christians when the Tribulation begins. If there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture, all those who believe in it will get a terrible surprise. So will all the other Christians who don't expect to go through the Tribulation for whatever other doctrinal reasons.Borrowed from http://www.be-ready.org/rapture.html
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