Another example of the KJV Bible contradicting itself

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Robert Gwin

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The second death is for the ungodly. They are thrown into the Lake of Fire until they are changed and go to Jesus. In the end all will go to Jesus and then ALL will be given to God.
It might help in understanding of the term if you consider that death and hell are cast into it Pat. All the things that are cast into it, are gone. When the resurrection is complete, there is no more death that we inherited from Adam thus no more need for hell, correct? Rev 20:13,14; 21:4

That may help you to realize that the lake of fire is symbolic of permanent destruction, hence the reason God chose to define it as meaning the second death sir.
 
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Jack

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It might help in understanding of the term if you consider that death and hell are cast into it Pat. All the things that are cast into it, are gone. When the resurrection is complete, there is no more death that we inherited from Adam thus no more need for hell, correct? Rev 20:13,14; 21:4
They will certainly wish they were "gone".

"They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER"!
That may help you to realize that the lake of fire is symbolic of permanent destruction, hence the reason God chose to define it as meaning the second death sir.
"Symbolic", one of JW's favs when they don't like what God said!
 
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Davy

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The contradiction is just in your own mind.

The Ephesians 3:21 idea is simply put to mean 'forever', 'eternally'.

But the Matthew 13:39 verse is about the day of Christ's future coming to end this PRESENT WORLD time, and judging the world in prep for His "thousand years" reign with His elect of Rev.20.
 

Jack

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The contradiction is just in your own mind.

The Ephesians 3:21 idea is simply put to mean 'forever', 'eternally'.

But the Matthew 13:39 verse is about the day of Christ's future coming to end this PRESENT WORLD time, and judging the world in prep for His "thousand years" reign with His elect of Rev.20.
Patrick is obsessed with Universalism, a VERY Satanic doctrine!
 
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Patrick1966

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It might help in understanding of the term if you consider that death and hell are cast into it Pat. All the things that are cast into it, are gone. When the resurrection is complete, there is no more death that we inherited from Adam thus no more need for hell, correct? Rev 20:13,14; 21:4

That may help you to realize that the lake of fire is symbolic of permanent destruction, hence the reason God chose to define it as meaning the second death sir.

The Lake of Fire is restorative. It changes death into life. It refines evil into good. Those that look to Christ refine themselves and then Jesus changes us the nice and easy way.

1 John 3:3 esv
And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

2 Corinthians 3:18 esv
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Others will also be refined, but they will have to be refined in the Lake of Fire, for their own good. It's sort of like how we must get our wisdom teeth removed, unpleasant but necessary. If people are eternally punished then all of the verses below are FALSE.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
 

Jack

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Satan LOVES Universalism!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
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rwb

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The Lake of Fire is restorative. It changes death into life. It refines evil into good. Those that look to Christ refine themselves and then Jesus changes us the nice and easy way.

If the lake of fire is restorative, why is it called the second death? Christ tells us that death in the fire destroys not only our body but also our soul, what is left of man cast there to restore?

Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV) And death and hell (grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 

Patrick1966

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If the lake of fire is restorative, why is it called the second death? Christ tells us that death in the fire destroys not only our body but also our soul, what is left of man cast there to restore?
I can "destroy" a gold statue by melting it down to liquid form. I can then restore it by molding it into something better. That's what Jesus does.

If some are eternally punished, why then does Paul tell us that, in Christ, ALL shall be made alive?

Why do you believe that Jesus must reign until all enemies are "under his feet"?

And how can God be "all in all" if some are eternally punished?

Jesus saves. Jesus is patient and he waits on those in the "Lake of Fire" (a metaphor) to go to him. Remember, it is GOD'S WILL that NONE be lost. In the end, ALL will go to Jesus and then Jesus will deliver the completed kingdom to God the Father, as explained in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Matthew 18:10-14 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
 

Johann

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May God bless you, my brother.
Over and over again you are admonished by genuine born again believers re your erroneous doctrine-when are you going to yield?
We are not to ADD or subtract from the D'var of YHVH-are you going to reconsider-or dug your heels in?
This is pure error from your side-and not what the Scriptures are teaching or even hinting at.
Thanks
J.
 

JunChosen

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God offers life or death sir,
Chapter and verse, please.

Scripture does stipulate, "For God so LOVED the world that He GAVE (never offered!) His only Son...."
but it is your choice,
Man in and of himself is spiritually dead. Do you understand the meaning of the word "dead?" That's right, "no life!!!"

Jesus said, "No man can come to me unless the Father DRAW him." John 6:44

And again,

"You have NOT chosen me but I have chosen you...." John 15:16
He and I recommend you choose life, Deut 30:19,20
Deuteronomy 30 must be read in light of the passages stipulated in John Chapter 6 and Chapter 15.

To God Be The Glory
 
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rwb

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If some are eternally punished, why then does Paul tell us that, in Christ, ALL shall be made alive?

Because when one is IN Christ they are eternally alive. You quote the verse, but completely miss what Paul is saying! Just as being IN Adam, which is to have physical life, so to being IN Christ is to have eternal spiritual life IN Him. In the same way since ALL of humanity is physically IN Adam, destined to physically die. So too ALL who are IN Christ are destined to eternal spiritual life.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Who among mankind is NOT in Adam? Being physically born is to be IN Adam! And who among mankind is in Christ, and therefore made spiritually alive? Only those who have been born again or born from above. "Ye must be born again"!

Why do you think Paul says you who were dead in trespasses and sins have been made alive (quickened) together with Christ? We were in Adam, physically alive, but spiritually dead! The moment we believed according to grace through faith, we were made spiritually alive, born again IN Christ. Whosoever lives and believes IN Christ shall NEVER die. Not ALL mankind, only those who have partaken of Christ while physically alive.

If a man physically dies without ever being IN Christ, he/she shall have their part in the lake of fire that is the SECOND/FINAL death. From that death there is NO escape!
 

Johann

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Because when one is IN Christ they are eternally alive. You quote the verse, but completely miss what Paul is saying! Just as being IN Adam, which is to have physical life, so to being IN Christ is to have eternal spiritual life IN Him. In the same way since ALL of humanity is physically IN Adam, destined to physically die. So too ALL who are IN Christ are destined to eternal spiritual life.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Who among mankind is NOT in Adam? Being physically born is to be IN Adam! And who among mankind is in Christ, and therefore made spiritually alive? Only those who have been born again or born from above. "Ye must be born again"!

Why do you think Paul says you who were dead in trespasses and sins have been made alive (quickened) together with Christ? We were in Adam, physically alive, but spiritually dead! The moment we believed according to grace through faith, we were made spiritually alive, born again IN Christ. Whosoever lives and believes IN Christ shall NEVER die. Not ALL mankind, only those who have partaken of Christ while physically alive.

If a man physically dies without ever being IN Christ, he/she shall have their part in the lake of fire that is the SECOND/FINAL death. From that death there is NO escape!
You are dealing with a "Universalist" brother-set in his worldview.
Johann.
 
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rwb

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You are dealing with a "Universalist" brother-set in his worldview.
Johann.

Yes, sadly, I know! I don't really expect to change his mind, although I can hope! I reply to some in these forums hoping to show how easily error can creep in if we aren't on guard. Thanks
 
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Patrick1966

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Because when one is IN Christ they are eternally alive. You quote the verse, but completely miss what Paul is saying! Just as being IN Adam, which is to have physical life, so to being IN Christ is to have eternal spiritual life IN Him. In the same way since ALL of humanity is physically IN Adam, destined to physically die. So too ALL who are IN Christ are destined to eternal spiritual life.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Who among mankind is NOT in Adam? Being physically born is to be IN Adam! And who among mankind is in Christ, and therefore made spiritually alive? Only those who have been born again or born from above. "Ye must be born again"!

Why do you think Paul says you who were dead in trespasses and sins have been made alive (quickened) together with Christ? We were in Adam, physically alive, but spiritually dead! The moment we believed according to grace through faith, we were made spiritually alive, born again IN Christ. Whosoever lives and believes IN Christ shall NEVER die. Not ALL mankind, only those who have partaken of Christ while physically alive.

If a man physically dies without ever being IN Christ, he/she shall have their part in the lake of fire that is the SECOND/FINAL death. From that death there is NO escape!

I doesn't say "those in Christ shall be made alive" it says ALL. This is also consistent with 1 Timothy 4:10 where Paul says that Jesus IS the savior of ALL people.
 

charity

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I doesn't say "those in Christ shall be made alive" it says ALL. This is also consistent with 1 Timothy 4:10 where Paul says that Jesus IS the savior of ALL people.
'For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the first-fruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
'
(1Co 15:22)

:)
 
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marks

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I doesn't say "those in Christ shall be made alive" it says ALL. This is also consistent with 1 Timothy 4:10 where Paul says that Jesus IS the savior of ALL people.
Actually,

As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, this is speaking of neither anyone that is not "in Adam", nor anyone who is not "in Christ".

In Adam all die. But God did not die, the angels did not die, only those in Adam died, and specifically, all those in Adam died. And in the same way, to be understood in the same sense, In Christ all shall be made alive.

Much love!
 

marks

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The second death is for the ungodly. They are thrown into the Lake of Fire until they are changed and go to Jesus. In the end all will go to Jesus and then ALL will be given to God.
There is kindness and severity of God, and it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance.

Much love!
 

marks

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The Lake of Fire is restorative. It changes death into life. It refines evil into good. Those that look to Christ refine themselves and then Jesus changes us the nice and easy way.

1 John 3:3 esv
And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

2 Corinthians 3:18 esv
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Others will also be refined, but they will have to be refined in the Lake of Fire, for their own good. It's sort of like how we must get our wisdom teeth removed, unpleasant but necessary. If people are eternally punished then all of the verses below are FALSE.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
Yet you must recieve the reconciliation or it does not help you. You must receive Jesus. In this life, now is the time, today is the day, and after that, the judgment.

Much love!
 
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rwb

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I doesn't say "those in Christ shall be made alive" it says ALL. This is also consistent with 1 Timothy 4:10 where Paul says that Jesus IS the savior of ALL people.

Patrick it very plainly says "ALL IN CHRIST" shall be made alive! Just as it says "ALL in Adam die" so too ALL in Christ shall be made alive. In life we shall either die in Adam without Christ, OR we shall die in Christ to have eternal spiritual life through Him.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Paul does not write "all men" without exception here, but "all men" without distinction. All men simply means that salvation is not limited, to only one nation, but is available to WHOEVER believes from all nations. He that does not believe the Son of God from all of humanity does NOT have life! He that does not believe God makes Him a liar, God hath given eternal life to ALL who believe! Believing here is not as the devil who knows about Christ, but specially or specifically believing Christ, the Son of God has given us eternal life.

1 John 5:10-13 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 

Davy

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Actually,

As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, this is speaking of neither anyone that is not "in Adam", nor anyone who is not "in Christ".

In Adam all die. But God did not die, the angels did not die, only those in Adam died, and specifically, all those in Adam died. And in the same way, to be understood in the same sense, In Christ all shall be made alive.

Much love!
Yet Paul is pointing to the day of Christ's coming with all being made alive, to include the wicked dead at His coming, as per John 5:28-29 about the "resurrection of damnation".

Those wicked will go through Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect too. But their spirit-soul condition will still be in a 'liable to perish' condition, IF they still refuse to repent and convert to Christ during that "thousand years", and be saved.

Thus as written, the "second death" (casting into the future "lake of fire") is not until the "thousand years" are over.