Answering Predestination "Proof" Texts

[Phoneman777]

God chose some of us to be saved while the rest of us are up the creek without a paddle, right? Of course, the sound of that is about as foreign a concept to the character of Jesus - and the Father, as told to Philip - as is foreign the concept of a Federal budget without deficit spending.

So, to what Scriptures are appeals made to prove this? Those verses which speak about fashioned vessels of "dishonor", "brute beasts" and a seething, intense hatred for "hated" Esau, all of which are said to prove God is the arbitrary operator of some twisted celestial lottery, right? I think not.

1) VESSELS OF DISHONOR: How does the Potter accomplish the fashioning of dishonorable vessels? By our own refusal to be conforming clay in His hands. By the hardening of ourselves, the resisting of His hands, we end up a dried up, cracked, misshapen mass worthy of nothing else but to be discarded.

2) BRUTE BEASTS: How does our Beneficent BroncoBuster produce "brute beasts"? By our own refusal to be broken in by Him. By stubbornly resisting His efforts to tame our wild nature, we end up worse than before, in that we acquire a level of fearlessness toward Him not previously held - having formerly sought to escape His presence, we now shake a defiant fist in His face; and formerly compelled to look upon Him with dread, we'd now, if it were possible, drag from off His throne Him Who gave His life to save us and kill Him. Only one fate for such beasts: death.

3) HATRED FOR ESAU: Did God "hate" Esau? Yes, but with no difference in the kind of hatred with which Jesus requires us to "hate..father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also" in order to be His disciple. It is obvious that this concept of "hate" means "prefer less", not "despise with intense disdain".

My God says, "If any man hear My voice..." and last time I checked, He said He wasn't coming back until the everlasting Gospel is preached to "every nation, kindred, tongue, and people."

 

[ScottA]

All the manifest world - this world, and everything we can relate to...is contrived. Created. But what is written, and experiencing it all on a timeline, does not mean that it exists on a timeline...any more than any other story that is written. No, it is conceived and complete, then read and experienced over time...and that is called story time. That is what we have here.

But to answer a question about God such as this, the story time of what is written is not the correct context. The correct context is the timeless, eternity of God wherein the story was written and actually exists. In that context, all of this was not "predestined" as we understand the term, but pre-finished...just as a book that is written. Thus, as it is written, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (His eye), it was finished, and finished with all the details of our decision and His. Bam! In that, just as God is "I am", we too simply are. We are who we are, doing what we will do, according to what is written, according to our decision and His.

And so shall we live.

 

[Dave L]

God chose some of us to be saved while the rest of us are up the creek without a paddle, right? Of course, the sound of that is about as foreign a concept to the character of Jesus - and the Father, as told to Philip - as is foreign the concept of a Federal budget without deficit spending.

So, to what Scriptures are appeals made to prove this? Those verses which speak about fashioned vessels of "dishonor", "brute beasts" and a seething, intense hatred for "hated" Esau, all of which are said to prove God is the arbitrary operator of some twisted celestial lottery, right? I think not.

1) VESSELS OF DISHONOR: How does the Potter accomplish the fashioning of dishonorable vessels? By our own refusal to be conforming clay in His hands. By the hardening of ourselves, the resisting of His hands, we end up a dried up, cracked, misshapen mass worthy of nothing else but to be discarded.

2) BRUTE BEASTS: How does our Beneficent BroncoBuster produce "brute beasts"? By our own refusal to be broken in by Him. By stubbornly resisting His efforts to tame us, we end up worse than before, in that we acquire level of fearlessness of Him not had before - having formerly sought to escape His presence, we now shake a defiant fist in His face; and formerly compelled to look upon Him with dread, if it were possible, we'd now drag Him Who gave His life to save us from off His throne and kill Him. Only one fate for such beasts: death.

3) HATRED FOR ESAU: Did God "hate" Esau? Yes, but with no difference in the hatred with which Jesus requires us to "hate..father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also" in order to be His disciple. It is obvious that this concept of "hate" means "prefer less", not "despise with intense disdain".

My God says, "If any man hear My voice..." and last time I checked, He said He wasn't coming back until the everlasting Gospel is preached to "every nation, kindred, tongue, and people."

You're gonna need a bigger boat....These only reflect your lack of study on the subject.

 

[Phoneman777]

You're gonna need a bigger boat....These only reflect your lack of study on the subject.

In what way does my lack of study render my interpretation of those verses illegit? What am I missing that would say, "No, Jesus' idea of hate is diff than God's idea of it toward Esau" or a similar claim regarding the other two examples?

 

[Dave L]

In what way does my lack of study render my interpretation of those verses illegit? What am I missing that would say, "No, Jesus' idea of hate is diff than God's idea of it toward Esau" or a similar claim regarding the other two examples?

You don't understand the subject and are attacking your misunderstanding instead.

 

[Phoneman777]

You don't understand the subject and are attacking your misunderstanding instead.

You've already said that. I get that. OK, could you share exactly what line of reasoning renders my interpretation wrong which says that Jesus' idea of "hate" towards our loved ones is the exact same idea of hate that God had toward Esau: which is "prefer less the one less than the other"?

 

[Dave L]

You've already said that. I get that. OK, could you share exactly what line of reasoning renders my interpretation wrong which says that Jesus' idea of "hate" towards our loved ones is the exact same idea of hate that God had toward Esau: which is "prefer less the one less than the other"?

You are trying to use the same meaning in two entirely different contexts.

 

[101G]

I can address the the OP list, but we will let the bible address it. Acts 10:1 "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Acts 10:2 "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Acts 10:3 "He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Acts 10:4 "And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

this word "memorial" is a game changer. why do we say this? scripture, Malachi 3:16 "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Malachi 3:17 "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

here we have hope,
1. a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD.
this term "remembrance" is the Hebrew word,
H2146 זִכרוֹן zikrown (zik-rone') n-m.
a memento (or memorable thing, day or writing).
[from H2142]
KJV: memorial, record.
Root(s): H2142

this is what the angel of the LORD said to our brother Cornelius. he "feared God", and prayed and gave. and the angel said, "Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God". same word used in Malachi 3.

2. and God said in Malachi 3:16 a book of "remembrance/memorial" was written before him. and in Malachi 3:17 God said "when he make up his jewels he would spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

in this I take HOPE, for one thing God is "MAKING up his Jewels", meaning it's not a done deal yet...... alleluia, our brother, captian Cornelius, a GENTILE, was added to his jewels, so I and those before and after me have the same opportunity to be in his jewelry collection. praise God.

I hope God is still "Making up his jewels"
PICJAG.

 

[Enoch111]

God chose some of us to be saved while the rest of us are up the creek without a paddle, right? Of course, the sound of that is about as foreign a concept to the character of Jesus - and the Father, as told to Philip - as is foreign the concept of a Federal budget without deficit spending.

Correct. As I have said a few times already predestination for salvation would be a violation of God's character as well as His own Gospel.

Predestination is for the perfection of the saints. Those who are justified will ultimately be glorified (Rom 8:29,30). And that upholds the glory and righteousness of God.

DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE COMES FIRST
For whom he did foreknow,

THEN PREDESTINATION
he also did predestinate

FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFECTION
to be conformed to the image of his Son,

THAT THE CHILDREN OF GOD MAY RESEMBLE CHRIST PERFECTLY
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

GOD'S PERFECT PLAN OF SALVATION
1. Moreover whom he did predestinate,
2. them he also called:
3. and whom he called, them he also justified:
4. and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Dave L]

Correct. As I have said a few times already predestination for salvation would be a violation of God's character as well as His own Gospel.

Predestination is for the perfection of the saints. Those who are justified will ultimately be glorified (Rom 8:29,30). And that upholds the glory and righteousness of God.

DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE COMES FIRST
For whom he did foreknow,

THEN PREDESTINATION
he also did predestinate

FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFECTION
to be conformed to the image of his Son,

THAT THE CHILDREN OF GOD MAY RESEMBLE CHRIST PERFECTLY
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

GOD'S PERFECT PLAN OF SALVATION
1. Moreover whom he did predestinate,
2. them he also called:
3. and whom he called, them he also justified:
4. and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You still have the problem of God saving only the self-righteous denying his grace which is unmerited.

 

[Enoch111]

You still have the problem of God saving only the self-righteous denying his grace which is unmerited.

You continue to spout nonsense in the face of the actual words in the Bible. And you continue to make false accusations about self-righteousness because you are blind to the truth. So you are playing a very dangerous game, because you are resisting God and resisting the Holy Spirit.

And because grace is unmerited, God not only justifies the guilty sinner but ultimately glorifies him.

 

[Nancy]

In what way does my lack of study render my interpretation of those verses illegit? What am I missing that would say, "No, Jesus' idea of hate is diff than God's idea of it toward Esau" or a similar claim regarding the other two examples?

I thought it was a spot on interp. One of the best ones I have seen on here yet!

 

[Phoneman777]

Correct. As I have said a few times already predestination for salvation would be a violation of God's character as well as His own Gospel.

Predestination is for the perfection of the saints. Those who are justified will ultimately be glorified (Rom 8:29,30). And that upholds the glory and righteousness of God.

DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE COMES FIRST
For whom he did foreknow,

THEN PREDESTINATION
he also did predestinate

FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFECTION
to be conformed to the image of his Son,

THAT THE CHILDREN OF GOD MAY RESEMBLE CHRIST PERFECTLY
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

GOD'S PERFECT PLAN OF SALVATION
1. Moreover whom he did predestinate,
2. them he also called:
3. and whom he called, them he also justified:
4. and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Well said, especially the part about "predestination" taking place only AFTER His foreknowledge of those who would accept His gift.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are trying to use the same meaning in two entirely different contexts.

The contexts may be different but the concepts are identical.

 

[Phoneman777]

You still have the problem of God saving only the self-righteous denying his grace which is unmerited.

Can you please elaborate on how rejecting the Calvinist view of predestination demands God save self-righteous people, which if true would certainly demand we accept Calvinism.

 

[Phoneman777]

I thought it was a spot on interp. One of the best ones I have seen on here yet!

You're givin me a toothache, Nancy :)

 

[Dave L]

Can you please elaborate on how rejecting the Calvinist view of predestination demands God save self-righteous people, which if true would certainly demand we accept Calvinism.

Grace saves those who cannot believe or want anything to do with God. If you think you had anything to do with your salvation, you get part of God's glory and deny grace.

 

[Dave L]

The contexts may be different but the concepts are identical.

This is not true. You need to place each topic in it's rightful context. It's like saying little kids hate medicine and then using it to define the hatred in racism.

 

[Enoch111]

If you think you had anything to do with your salvation, you get part of God's glory and deny grace.

You are telling us that you neither repented nor believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and yet were somehow magically saved. That is definitely another gospel.

 

[Dave L]

You continue to spout nonsense in the face of the actual words in the Bible. And you continue to make false accusations about self-righteousness because you are blind to the truth. So you are playing a very dangerous game, because you are resisting God and resisting the Holy Spirit.

And because grace is unmerited, God not only justifies the guilty sinner but ultimately glorifies him.

You rob God of his glory in salvation and credit free will instead. Blasphemy of the holy Spirit is attributing the works of God to Satan. You are not far off this mark crediting the sinful flesh instead.