anti-christ sitting in the rebuilt Jewish 3rd. temple saying he is god.

[Dave L]

Yet people today become proselyte Jews just as they did in ancient days regardless of whether there is a temple or not

But these are not biblical Jews. Jesus and the church are biblical Israel.

 

[brakelite]

Rome simply doesn't have the power that it had earlier in the last century. I don't believe it has any end-time significance at all except the possibility that a pope may be the false prophet but certainly not the a/c.

Certainly Rome doesn't yet have the power she covets. But she is working on that believe me. Not always openly, but her real ambitions can be seen if you are looking in the right places. See my post The Elephant in the Room No-one Admits to.
Now the above link is merely personal observation of current events. Thus there is in that no reference to prophecy. Prophecy is the more sure word than any observation either of us could have, and often even in contradiction to our senses. While Papal Rome does not now have the influence and power she would like, or craves for, there is coming a time when she most assuredly will...'understanding the nature of the beast' as mentioned below by HIH and who gives the beast the power...I could write several pages , and in fact have done so in the past, on that topic alone. But one must view the whole eschatological paradigm from the correct hermeneutic to make sense of prophecy...otherwise one is left with nothing more than guesswork and clairvoyant futuristic prognostications. Jesus said on a couple of occasions that the way to understand prophecy and thus to understand what comes next, is to observe what has already come to pass. The rejection by the modern church of 1500 years of history, mostly written in the blood of the saints, as a rock solid fulfilment of prophecy and current events as a continuing witness to the past, and a sure sign of the future direction of the major players in the drama, has left Christians today without an anchor and no sure idea of where they are in the timeline of earths history.

The problem with this debate for me is that I believe Rome will play a significant role: She is going to be turned into toast by the ten nation Caliphate that arises in the earth prior to the emergence of the Mahdi, i.e. the Antichrist (Revelation 17:15-17). But as I have complained before, it troubles me that many - even many throughout church history - have never been able to properly discern between the Whore and the Beast. One will clearly hate the other, and destroy her by fire.

While I agree that there will be in the future a ten member coalition arrayed against Rome, I see no evidence such will be a Caliphate. Not that I don't believe Islam will not turn against her...thus far Rome seems immune to the hatred from Islam I suggest because currently behind the scenes they are more allies than enemies. There is much those two religions have in common, and evidence even that one was born from the former. The latter, Islam, when she learns the truth of Rome's deceptions and lies, will indeed be very upset.
As I mentioned to Trekson above, understanding the nature of the beast is essential to understanding who we are dealing with. This starts from Daniel 2, which is explained more fully in chapters 7 through 11. Knowing who those beasts are, their various characteristics and who they represented literally in the OT, and who they represent spiritually in the NT, such as in Revelation 13, who gave them their power, etc, gives peace and a sense of assurance of our place in the great drama unfolding all around us. (Hint: the fourth beast of Daniel 7 is pagan Rome. The ten horns that grew out of the beast, were Roman. [History does repeat]. The seven that survived, now comprise modern western Europe. The little horn that grew up among the ten, and who had a hand in destroying 3 of them, and who for 1260 years rules over those seven, was also Roman. )

God divorced Israel CoreIssue? .. would this be the same God who hates divorce?

“For I hate divorce,” says the LORD,the God of Israel, ​

No, God did not divorce Israel. They divorced Him, through their unfaithfulness and their playing the harlot with other gods, and their murder and rejection of their Master's Son. The amazing faithfulness of God however is revealed in His acceptance of individual Jews as they return to Him in repentance...just the same as anyone else. Yes, it would have broken God's heart to be spurned as He was, yet He is a God who's love demands free will. He doesn't force anyone to follow or remain faithful. While He hates divorce, He also values nd accepts our choices.

 

[Trekson]

Paul said they are under God's wrath until the end. And all the promises of God belong to Christ, not them. Only until any accept Christ they remain doomed.

I don't think it ever says end but "until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled", proving yet again that we speaking of a future event.

 

[Dave L]

I don't think it ever says end but "until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled", proving yet again that we speaking of a future event.

The times of the gentiles remain until the end of the world. Consider;
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [gentiles]; and then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:14) (KJV 1900)

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [gentiles], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19–20) (KJV 1900)

And consider, today's Jews are among the gentiles who trod down Jerusalem. And to whom we preach the gospel to.

 

[brakelite]

Buddy, if Satan has no designs against the Jews anymore then you are apparently likewise attributing the deaths of 6,000,000 of them at the hands of Hitler to "deflecting attention away from prophetic reality." I think your attention is being deflected away from actual reality. Satan hates that race as much today as he ever has, and the hatred building up within Muslims towards them virtually mirrors that manifested by the NAZIs. You don't think the hatred being exhibited by Hitler and Himler was genuine hatred, inspired by the Devil?

While no-one can argue against the reality of hatred in the world, and much of it Satanically inspired and seemingly for no reason other than prejudice and self interest, I must point out that what you describe above is very clear to everyone. No-one would refute what you describe. Everyone, from the 7 yo learning history as a 'good' school, to the average man in the street is aware of the current wars and rumours of wars that permeate the middle east, along with the numerous threats and abuse targeting Israel. A clear and present danger as the saying goes. Headline news on even the fake channels. Though different folk may put their own spin on things, the situation surrounding Israel and the Islamic nation is common knowledge. Most churches and evangelists speak of it...politicians the world over speak of it...even here in Australia one topic of conversation is Australia's acceptance of and recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital...world politics and current events are hardly ever discussed in any context without some reference to the Middle East controversy. As for the future connection to the so called Antichrist and a coming temple...who that doesn't read or listen to the modern evangelist hasn't heard and understood the general drift of modern eschatological arguments?
So I wonder of those who promote these views, ever read that part of scripture that warns of deception. Those warnings against false prophets and false calls of Christ being here, or there...and even more important, the point Revelation makes that Satan "deceives them that dwell upon the earth"; if the above end-time paradigm is true, and the whole world is aware of it, where is the deception?

 

[CoreIssue]

God divorced Israel CoreIssue? .. would this be the same God who hates divorce?

“For I hate divorce,” says the LORD,the God of Israel, ​

Jeremiah 3:6-13 New International Version (NIV)
Unfaithful Israel
6 During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, “Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. 9 Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. 10 In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense,” declares the Lord.

11 The Lord said to me, “Faithless Israel is more righteous than unfaithful Judah. 12 Go, proclaim this message toward the north:

“‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am faithful,’ declares the Lord,
‘I will not be angry forever.
13 Only acknowledge your guilt—
you have rebelled against the Lord your God,
you have scattered your favors to foreign gods
under every spreading tree,
and have not obeyed me,’”
declares the Lord.

 

[CoreIssue]

The Jews circumcised before the crucifixion were genuine Jews and members of Israel. When they died off, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Paul was surrounded with genuinely circumcised Jews and spoke to them verbally and in his letters.

Your inventing things again.

 

[Dave L]

Your inventing things again.

Study Jewish history in the bible. It's all there.

 

[CoreIssue]

I see we agree that it will be a ten-nation confederacy of Eastern Rome, not Western Rome as is the popular opinion.

Rome is in the West. The 10 toes of the EU/restored Roman Empire is in the West.

 

[CoreIssue]

Study Jewish history in the bible. It's all there.

I am sure I studied it far more than you.

 

[Dave L]

I am sure I studied it far more than you.

I think it depends on our source of instruction.

 

[CoreIssue]

I think it depends on our source of instruction.

Archaeology, manuscripts, Jewish scholars, non-Jewish scholars, Bible and so forth.

You?

 

[Dave L]

Archaeology, manuscripts, Jewish scholars, non-Jewish scholars, Bible and so forth.

You?

Baptist, Reformed, and Presbyterian Systematic Theology and Biblical Theology.

 

[CoreIssue]

But these are not biblical Jews. Jesus and the church are biblical Israel.

Israel is a nation. Jews are individual.

The church is not a nation.

 

[CoreIssue]

Baptist, Reformed, and Presbyterian Systematic Theology and Biblical Theology.

And there in the larger problem. You studied denominational doctrine and creeds.

No surprise.

 

[Dave L]

And there in the larger problem. You studied denominational doctrine and creeds.

No surprise.

Dispensationalism is not a doctrine or a creed?

 

[CoreIssue]

Dispensationalism is not a doctrine or a creed?

I am nondenominational.

I studied the Bible, history and science.

So not a doctrine or cream for me. Dispensationalism is fully biblical. But there are a number of use on exactly how many and what the dispensations were, which does get into denominational doctrine.

But that has nothing to do with this topic.

The Israel of the Old Testament was not the Israel at the time of the crucifixion, now, or in the future.

The Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots were the main players at the time of Christ. Israel was apostate with the exception of very few. Those very few that became the first church.

 

[Dave L]

I am nondenominational.

I studied the Bible, history and science.

So not a doctrine or cream for me. Dispensationalism is fully biblical. But there are a number of use on exactly how many and what the dispensations were, which does get into denominational doctrine.

But that has nothing to do with this topic.

The Israel of the Old Testament was not the Israel at the time of the crucifixion, now, or in the future.

The Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots were the main players at the time of Christ. Israel was apostate with the exception of very few. Those very few that became the first church.

I'm non denominational but there's nothing like a good understanding of Jewish history from the bible to quell the claims of dispensationalists. You should challenge your beliefs from a historical standpoint to see if they hold up.

 

[Ivor]

If there are no Jews then who are the Jews who will return to God by accepting Christ... and why not let Hitler and all the others who tried over the last 2000 years wipe the Jews out if they were not Jews

 

[Trekson]

Rome is in the West. The 10 toes of the EU/restored Roman Empire is in the West.

If you consider Dan. 9:26..."the people of the prince" The Roman army used mostly conscripted soldiers from neighboring nations
in their attack against Jerusalem. When you consider the rest of the prophecy regarding the a/c, Dan. 11:21 to the end, it really makes much more sense than a western roman empire. Imo, it ceased to be a contender for this prophecy once the EU was formed.