anti-christ sitting in the rebuilt Jewish 3rd. temple saying he is god.

[Dave L]

I hear this sort of statement in discussions like this all the time, and it almost sounds like you guys believe the Jews are beyond forgiveness from God, and that it's an utter impossibility they'll ever turn to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul didn't feel this way, and never took this stand:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Romans 11:11-12)

Don't you think it's a problem if your theology tends towards not even giving the Jews a chance at redemption? Smacks of anti-Semitism, which led to Hitler, and may lead to someone far worse.

Paul said they are under God's wrath until the end. And all the promises of God belong to Christ, not them. Only until any accept Christ they remain doomed.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Paul said they are under God's wrath until the end.

Chapter and verse?

 

[Dave L]

Chapter and verse?

“Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost [Greek = end].” (1 Thessalonians 2:15–16) (KJV 1900)

 

[Hidden In Him]

ἔφθακεν δὲ ἐπ' αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τέλος = "But the wrath has come upon them to the uttermost." He was talking about their now pending conquest by Rome. Already relations between Rome and Judea were heading towards an inevitable conclusion.

This verse does not mean they were doomed to be forever forsaken by God as a race! What's the matter with you? Again, this sort of theology smacks of anti-Semitism, and almost justifies evils being done to the Jews as a people. What an awful thing to believe : (

 

[Dave L]

ἔφθακεν δὲ ἐπ' αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τέλος = "But the wrath has come upon them to the uttermost." He was talking about their now pending conquest by Rome. Already relations between Rome and Judea were heading towards an inevitable conclusion.

This verse does not mean they were doomed to be forever forsaken by God as a race! What's the matter with you? Again, this sort of theology smacks of anti-Semitism, and almost justifies evils being done to the Jews as a people. What an awful thing to believe : (

Are we being antisemitic saying Jews are different from everyone else? They are gentiles with a religion called Judaism.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is correct. But remember, Peter says Jesus presently rules on David's Throne in Jerusalem above. Revelation says he rules over the nations. And Paul says he must rule until he defeats death, the last enemy at the resurrection.

Matthew 4:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

2 Corinthians 4:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1 John 5:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Are we being antisemitic saying Jews are different from everyone else?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly not being anti-Semitic, LoL. I believe God is not done with the Jews, because to them was given "the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom Christ came as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 9:4-5)

 

[Dave L]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly not being anti-Semitic, LoL. I believe God is not done with the Jews, because to them was given "the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom Christ came as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 9:4-5)

The promises are said yes to only in Christ. Any who accept him will be reunited with Israel (Jesus) and receive them.

 

[Dave L]

Matthew 4:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

2 Corinthians 4:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1 John 5:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Does Jesus rule over Satan? If so, Satan only carries out God's plans for the world.

 

[CoreIssue]

Are we being antisemitic saying Jews are different from everyone else? They are gentiles with a religion called Judaism.

Jews are not Gentiles, God says so.

Saying God has a special place and purpose for Jews is pro Israel. Not anti.

Nor does Semites mean only Jews.

Semitic people - Wikipedia

 

[CoreIssue]

Does Jesus rule over Satan? If so, Satan only carries out God's plans for the world.

God uses Satan as a tool. But he has his own plan, meaning to take God's place.

 

[Dave L]

Jews are not Gentiles, God says so.

Saying God has a special place and purpose for Jews is pro Israel. Not anti.

Nor does Semites mean only Jews.

Semitic people - Wikipedia

Circumcision made one a Jew and member of Israel. When Jesus abolished it on the cross, all became gentiles by default. Except believers who remained Israel under Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

God uses Satan as a tool. But he has his own plan, meaning to take God's place.

Satan is God's messenger of wrath doing exactly what God wants him to do.

 

[CoreIssue]

Satan is God's messenger of wrath doing exactly what God wants him to do.

The bowls are the wrath in the Tribulation Period. The rest is testing the world.

 

[Dave L]

The bowls are the wrath in the Tribulation Period. The rest is testing the world.

The bowls span the entire New Covenant era along with the Seals and Trumpets. Look around, it's also happening now.

 

[CoreIssue]

The bowls span the entire New Covenant era along with the Seals and Trumpets. Look around, it's also happening now.

Prove it.

Obviously you don't know the difference between wrath testing.

Bowls are the last of God's wrath. But wrath is mentioned more than once in the Bible.

 

[Dave L]

Prove it.

Obviously you don't know the difference between wrath testing.

Bowls are the last of God's wrath. But wrath is mentioned more than once in the Bible.

They depict judgement on the earth from the onset of the New Covenant.

 

[Ivor]

I've just left a forum where one person tells the other person they are wrong and the one who shouts the loudest (replies the most or writes the longest post wins the game). The audience are long gone as the protagonists score points late into the night and the next day and the next day.

If it was still the old fashioned paper and envelopes then non of it is really worth the stamp but with the new internet there's no stamp to buy or post box to walk to so people go nuts.

It's quite pointless being right if no one is listening and straining out the gnat to prove an obscure point often makes people turn away anyway.

Collectively we have faith in Jesus as the head and we are different parts of his body and all of us are right in some thoughts and wrong in others therefore the whole answer must be there - but we need each other.

So maybe rather than argue it would be better if we gave our thought as an offering as a food gift to the table and then stepped back and let others bring their's until there's a banquet where anyone can devour a tasty morsel rather than forcibly ram food down each others throat?

I have no idea how it would work but I'm sure it would - maybe a thread that we can post a few paragraphs in our own words and no one contradicts another (throws another's offering plate from the table) even if its cold cabbage and custard sandwiches and deserves throwing

 

[Hidden In Him]

The promises are said yes to only in Christ.

I think you mean the promises are yes and amen to those in Christ. And yes, that's precisely why the scriptures suggest He is not done with the Jews.

Let me ask you this: Micheal is described as the spiritual principality over the nation of Israel, as opposed to a demonic prince who ruled over the region of Persia (Daniel 10:13). As such, the passage below is talking about the children of God, not as a spiritual entity, but as existing in a Geographical Region, Correct?

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people (i.e. Daniel's people) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

 

[Hidden In Him]

So maybe rather than argue it would be better if we gave our thought as an offering as a food gift to the table and then stepped back and let others bring their's until there's a banquet where anyone can devour a tasty morsel rather than forcibly ram food down each others throat?

I have no idea how it would work but I'm sure it would - maybe a thread that we can post a few paragraphs in our own words and no one contradicts another (throws another's offering plate from the table) even if its cold cabbage and custard sandwiches

LoL. I don't think I'd be hungry for cabbage and custard sandwiches : )

I do know what you are trying to say with this post, but at this point in a thread it is mostly down to seeing if one's own theology holds water. There is an examination that goes on on a much deeper level than just surface offerings when you get to this point in a discussion. I know some see it purely as strife, but so long as such conversations are conducted in a proper Spirit they can actually be very beneficial. I can't vouch for the spirit others are always posting in, and there's been a few times when I wasn't in a right spirit myself. But there's none of that with me at present. I'm discussing these things with them as friends.

P.S. Didn't much care for Dave L at first, but he's growing on me now, LoL. Brakelite I've always liked and respected... even if his theology kinda smells like cabbage to me in some ways.