Anti- Christian Crusade.

[mjrhealth]

As you seem to have missed the reference in Lev 18 to homosexual sex, perhaps you are the one who is not reading and studying for yourself?

Someone seems to have missed the bit about "all sin leads to death". yes even yours... The reason why they hate christians is because christians hated them first, not God.

In all His Love

 

[StanJ]

Okay....what I actually said was that I couldn't see how there could be a divorce where there was no marriage. I never said that divorce was God's intent. But He did give a law allowing a man to give his wife a bill of divorcement, and Jesus says that the law of divorce was for the hardness of their heart.

and Jesus said, was; “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Don't know why I have to keep quoting this? You seem bound and determined to twist even what Jesus said?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Then I question what drugs you are on that make you see MARRIED in Gen 2? Cleave doe not connote marriage.

I'm on drugs now? How? Which ones of yours did you slip me?

It's WIFE old man. God bound them together - and let no man split them apart.

 

[StanJ]

I read the chapter. I could post it here, but that would take up a lot of space.

I thought that the first polygamist mentioned in the Bible was also a murderer was an interesting little factiod. And if I recall correctly, murder was what got Cain cast out.
And didn't Cain find a wife in the land of Nod shortly after that?

and yet you quote ONLY the one dealing with sexual practise and ignore the ones that mention different marriages? How is that being honest?

That is NOT the point, but simply an attempt by you to deflect from the actual issue. Let's try to stay on track please.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Someone seems to have missed the bit about "all sin leads to death". yes even yours... The reason why they hate christians is because christians hated them first, not God.

In all His Love

The only hate I feel comes from the people who say I hate homosexuals.

They just disgust me because they are such girly men. I reserve hate for true evil.

 

[StanJ]

My point is that sex outside of marriage was against the law, and the young virgin who indulged in it did so at the risk of her life.
In other words, sex was intended to be for a man and his wife.

In actuality, sex, WAS marriage. It still is today, as an unconsummated union is considered grounds for annulling a marriage, both in law and in the Bible.

 

[StanJ]

All of that is very interesting, but kind of irrelevant to the discussion we are having.
I believe that the Bible says what God intends it to say....in any language. Or did you think that God does not speak English?
You know, when Genesis was actually happening, Hebrew did not yet exist as a language. Everyone who lived till the time of the tower of Babel, where God confounded the language, spoke the same language.
Can you read and translate that language?

The inspiration was in Hebrew Barrd, but aside from that, many scholars believe the Adamic language was also a form of Hebrew. I really don't care, and that is NOT the point. Hebrew IS the OT origin language, so in that regard it is important to note.
Again, you deflect instead of DEALING with the point.

 

[StanJ]

I think I told you long ago, Stan, that I was never taught by any man. For most of my youth, I was not a part of any church. Just me and my Bible. Yes, my family were supposedly Episcopalians, but we seldom went to church except at Christmas and Easter. Later, in my teens, I would walk to town and go to church without my family's knowledge, but by then my ideas were pretty well formed. As I told you, I was 12 years old when I began to read and study the Bible.
Your comparing me to a pharisee now? Funny how in threads where we agree with each other, I'm a great gal....but if I disagree with you, I am a pharisee. I'm hurt, Stan, I truly am.

That would explain some things Barrd, as all believers need to be PROPERLY instructed. That does NOT happen by osmosis.
I'm comparing what your MO is to the MO of the Pharisees. It doesn't matter at all to me what the thread is...if you're right you're right, if you're wrong, you're wrong. I said Pharisees reacted SIMILARILY, you took that to be an insult, so I can only assume a certain amount of self recrimination here. If you are TRULY hurt by my words, I apologize.

 

[StanJ]

Oh, Stan...the worst thing I've said here was that you are a few sandwiches shy of a picnic on this one. And that is after a paragraph talking about how I could understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree. i thought you and I were friends, Stan. I have consistently in this thread and elsewhere referred to you as my Brother, my beloved Brother, my precious Brother, and other "terms of endearment". Now suddenly you see me as attacking you? If you took offense at anything I have said, Stan, I most humbly offer my abject apology, and crave your pardon. But if you're just mad at me for not agreeing with you...well, no apology for that.


No, of course you are not posting for my agreement. But I do not agree with you that what you are posting is the truth, although I'm sure you think that it is.
Your assumption that I do not study is just not true, as is your assumption that my beliefs are based on any teaching by any man.
You do tend to jump to conclusions, my friend. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean that they have not read the Bible or that they do not study.

As you seem to have missed the reference in Lev 18 to homosexual sex, perhaps you are the one who is not reading and studying for yourself?

We are brother and sister in Christ Barrd. I don't consider us friends. I also don't consider us enemies. Quite honestly I don't like being called brother, but I'm not going to complain about it. I don't consider what you said a personal attack, just what it was. I try very hard to NOT take anything personally from people who don't really know me personally.

No, my assertion is that you either do not want to see what you are being properly instructed to see, or you are refusing to see it.

I didn't miss the reference to gay sex Barrd, I also didn't miss the references to the different types of illicit marriages.
It really does not require a lot of studying if one just reads scripture WITHOUT an eisegetical POV.

 

[Barrd]

and Jesus said, was; “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Don't know why I have to keep quoting this? You seem bound and determined to twist even what Jesus said?

The part of this passage that concerns us is this:

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

The point being made here is that God created a man and a woman, one for the other, the female for the male, and the male for the female. They are no more twain, but one flesh. God has joined them together.
i couldn't think of a better definition of the term "marriage" even if I were to try.

Did I misquote Jesus?

Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Okay, so it was Moses who gave them divorce. Was that my error?
But here we see that "from the beginning it was not so", which is the point. It was never God's intention that a man should divorce his wife.

 

[Barrd]

and yet you quote ONLY the one dealing with sexual practise and ignore the ones that mention different marriages? How is that being honest?

That is NOT the point, but simply an attempt by you to deflect from the actual issue. Let's try to stay on track please.

Very well, Stan.
To please you, I will post the entire chapter, even if it takes more than one post to do it.

Lev 18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
Lev 18:10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
Lev 18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
Lev 18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
Lev 18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
Lev 18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
Lev 18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
Lev 18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
Lev 18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
Lev 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
Lev 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
Lev 18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
Lev 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

There you have it. In brief, these are the sexual practices God has forbidden.
We may not do any of these, or encourage others to do any of these...they are called "abominable customs" and we are not to defile ourselves with them.
While it is true that gay sex is only one item in the list, it is one of the items in the list, and it is forbidden, just like all of the other items contained in this list.

I'm sorry if you took my attempt to keep it short as not being honest, so, in the interest of honesty, here is the entire chapter with all the sexual sins listed.
Enjoy.

 

[mjrhealth]

In actuality, sex, WAS marriage. It still is today, as an unconsummated union is considered grounds for annulling a marriage, both in law and in the Bible.

Actually "is" its what makes marriage what it is. But ths sex is meant to create life, which was God,s original intention. What some cant seperate is what is from God and what is the world. We are no longer part of this world, just passing thruough thank goodness, cant wait to go home.

It is sin that keeps men in bondage, not because of sin, but because of unbelief, thats why so many christians cant stop bringing it up.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

He is just doing His job.

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

In actuality, sex, WAS marriage. It still is today, as an unconsummated union is considered grounds for annulling a marriage, both in law and in the Bible.

Whatever, the point was that sex is for a man and a woman in a marriage commitment. A young woman who indulged in sex outside of that commitment was stoned to death.
Yes, a marriage that is unconsummated is considered grounds for divorce....does this surprise you?
Yes, sex was marriage. There was a ceremony, but the couple was not actually married until they had sex.
After that they were married.
But, as we have seen in Lev. 18, gay sex was outlawed.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Just like incest or bestiality.
You can't marry your daughter. You can't marry your puppy dog.
And two gay men cannot marry.

When you, or anyone else, encourages or supports gay marriage, it is no different than if you were to encourage or support incest, or bestiality.

It really is that simple.

 

[mjrhealth]

When you, or anyone else, encourages or supports gay marriage, it is no different than if you were to encourage or support incest, or bestiality.

It is sin just like your sin all has the same end,why do you have such big issues with sex.....sex is not a sin between two consenting partners, when done with with someone else when married than it is, because it affect the person you are married to. Rape is a sin because the person raped was not consenting.

 

[Barrd]

The inspiration was in Hebrew Barrd, but aside from that, many scholars believe the Adamic language was also a form of Hebrew. I really don't care, and that is NOT the point. Hebrew IS the OT origin language, so in that regard it is important to note.
Again, you deflect instead of DEALING with the point.

The point being that "husband" and "wife" in the Bible don't mean the same as in English? Okay, then explain:

1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

I'm sure there are more, but that's enough to get on with.
Besides, it's getting late.

 

[Barrd]

That would explain some things Barrd, as all believers need to be PROPERLY instructed. That does NOT happen by osmosis.
I'm comparing what your MO is to the MO of the Pharisees. It doesn't matter at all to me what the thread is...if you're right you're right, if you're wrong, you're wrong. I said Pharisees reacted SIMILARILY, you took that to be an insult, so I can only assume a certain amount of self recrimination here. If you are TRULY hurt by my words, I apologize.

So, you don't think that the Bible is PROPER instruction? That's interesting.

Stan you are not the one to decide if I am wrong or I am right. I am not perfect, that is true.
But then, neither are you.

And yes, you hurt me with your words. But don't fret yourself....I'll get over it.

 

[Barrd]

We are brother and sister in Christ Barrd. I don't consider us friends. I also don't consider us enemies. Quite honestly I don't like being called brother, but I'm not going to complain about it. I don't consider what you said a personal attack, just what it was. I try very hard to NOT take anything personally from people who don't really know me personally.

No, my assertion is that you either do not want to see what you are being properly instructed to see, or you are refusing to see it.

I didn't miss the reference to gay sex Barrd, I also didn't miss the references to the different types of illicit marriages.
It really does not require a lot of studying if one just reads scripture WITHOUT an eisegetical POV.

I will never refer to you as my brother, or my friend again, Stan. I promise.

And I will never accept you as my instructor, either.

You did say that there was no reference to gay marriage in Lev 18:

In your post #358, you said:

Lev 18 is about both, which you would know if you took the time to read it. The point is that it does NOT mention gay marriage.

 

[Born_Again]

So, you don't think that the Bible is PROPER instruction? That's interesting.

Okay, whether I agree with the POV on this thread or not, that was a childish response....

 

[Barrd]

Okay, whether I agree with the POV on this thread or not, that was a childish response....

Sorry. When I get my little feelings hurt, I cry like a baby.
And I did think that Stan and I were friends.

I have been corrected.

 

[Barrd]

One of my huge problems with this site is that everyone here seems to think that they are teachers.
I came here looking for fellowship. I came here to meet and greet other Christians in the hope of making some new friends.

I did not come here looking for instruction. There are pastors in the town I live in, and I do have a church group that I study with. I honestly do not need yet another instructor.

Again, I am not perfect. One day, I will be....but that day has not yet arrived.

Neither is anyone else here perfect.
Although an awful lot of folks on this site seem to think so.

I've met an awful lot of publicans in this site....but not very many sinners...