Anti- Christian Crusade.

[StanJ]

1 Corinthians 5, Paul speaks of a man who took his father's wife...his step-mother...as his own wife. Paul seemed to think that this was a particularly disgusting sin, and exhorted the Corinthians not to have anything whatsoever to do with the man who had done this thing.

Now, while Paul did not actually use the word "abomination" referring to homosexuality, he did soundly condemn it:

Here, homosexuality is referred to as "vile affections", and also "unseemly", warning that those who indulge in it recieve that "recompense of their error which is meet".

"Be not deceived," says Paul....those who practice homosexuality "shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Yes, but I'm referring to the principle behind his teaching, that would apply to ANYONE living in ANY sin in the church.

I am not advocating support of ANY sin, I am trying to teach perspective for ALL sin. Jesus died the same death for ALL sin. To God, His death was sufficient for ALL sin, despite the type of sin. Both Jesus and John spoke of the sin that is not forgiven, and all others are. Homosexuality is forgivable as all sin but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Abomination is the OT version of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
IMO, it serves no useful purpose to single out one predilection over any other...sin is sin and while WE were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Those who practise ANY sin, will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[StanJ]

I have to say, Stan, that your saying that "it is not more an abomination than rape or fornication" kind of shocks me a bit. Surely, these sins are, as you put it, "disgusting"?
Would you suggest that we ordain someone involved in fornication of any kind as a pastor, or raise an unrepentant rapist to teach Sunday School to our precious children?
Or should we make these people our "friends" and invite them to spend time with our families?

In fact, don't we, as parents, tend to try to discourage our kids from hanging around with such people?

What do you think, as a husband and a father? Do we condone these sins??

Again...to be a friend of God must necessarily mean to be at enmity with the world.

But I am sure, Precious Brother, that you already knew that!

Actually the 'modern' word is detestable, and I have no problem with that rendering, as sin is detestable in God's eyes....ALL sin.
As we do now, we should only ordain those that are fit to occupy the office, but that involves a lot more than a reliance on a sinners statement of morality. IMO, it should rely on a persons already established public demonstration of their abilities, as Paul taught.
What was Jesus' reputation in the NT? Matt 11:19

 

[StanJ]

If it was an abomination to God then, it is surely an abomination to God now....He is God, He changes not..Malachi

God doesn't change, but vernacular does. Using 400 year old wording to convey what the Greek's functional equivalence is today, is not the way to show what His word says. Abomination in the Bible, always refers to doing something of a blasphemous nature, willfully and knowingly, towards God. That has changed either.

 

[Barrd]

Yes, but I'm referring to the principle behind his teaching, that would apply to ANYONE living in ANY sin in the church.

I am not advocating support of ANY sin, I am trying to teach perspective for ALL sin. Jesus died the same death for ALL sin. To God, His death was sufficient for ALL sin, despite the type of sin. Both Jesus and John spoke of the sin that is not forgiven, and all others are. Homosexuality is forgivable as all sin but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Abomination is the OT version of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
IMO, it serves no useful purpose to single out one predilection over any other...sin is sin and while WE were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Those who practise ANY sin, will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Interesting post.
Should we condone the worship of idols in our church? Should we take some guy that worships a statue of some other god or goddess and ordain him? What about Wiccans or Pagans? I do have a friend who considers herself a "Christian Wiccan" and another writer pal who worships the Greek pantheon of gods and goddesses, but who includes Christ in his devotions.
What about someone who has been convicted of burglary...someone who breaks into people's homes to steal? Should we make such a one a deacon....or give him a Sunday School class to teach?
I'm fairly sure you will say "Of course not, Barrd, don't be ridiculous"....or something similar.
We are quick to condemn drunkeness, or slander, or any of these things...

But for some reason, we are a little reluctant when it comes to sexual immorality.
We would not have a drunk behind our pulpit...but many churches are ordaining actively gay men and women...
We are quick to condemn the prostitute...but we look the other way when it comes to adultery, and even divorce.

You do not see a problem with this?

 

[Barrd]

Actually the 'modern' word is detestable, and I have no problem with that rendering, as sin is detestable in God's eyes....ALL sin.
As we do now, we should only ordain those that are fit to occupy the office, but that involves a lot more than a reliance on a sinners statement of morality. IMO, it should rely on a persons already established public demonstration of their abilities, as Paul taught.
What was Jesus' reputation in the NT? Matt 11:19

Yes, my friend, the "modern" world is quite detestable...

But it is our job to shine a light into this darkness.
In order for us to do that, we must stand against such things as legalizing gay marriage, just as we must stand against abortion, and for the same reason.

Is it a war we are bound to lose in the end?
Yes...just as we are losing the war against abortion.
Still, as I've said before in these threads, I can testify that we have saved some infants from the slaughter...in fact, I just got a birthday card from one of my "grandkids" in Arizona. He is 23 years old now....gosh, I feel so old! He sent me a pic of himself in a t-shirt that says "As A Former Fetus, I Protest Abortion!"
So, while we have lost the war....we do win a battle here and there.

We need to keep fighting, my friend...

 

[StanJ]

Yes, my friend, the "modern" world is quite detestable...

But it is our job to shine a light into this darkness.
In order for us to do that, we must stand against such things as legalizing gay marriage, just as we must stand against abortion, and for the same reason.

Is it a war we are bound to lose in the end?
Yes...just as we are losing the war against abortion.
Still, as I've said before in these threads, I can testify that we have saved some infants from the slaughter...in fact, I just got a birthday card from one of my "grandkids" in Arizona. He is 23 years old now....gosh, I feel so old! He sent me a pic of himself in a t-shirt that says "As A Former Fetus, I Protest Abortion!"
So, while we have lost the war....we do win a battle here and there.

We need to keep fighting, my friend...

Exactly, but shining your light does not mean legislating morality. Democracy is NOT in our purview as Christians, only as citizens, just as Paul taught in 1 Cor 5:9-10, 12-13.

All of these issue have exceptions, but the topic has been about homosexuality, which IMO pales in the light of abortion, but then again I'm human and not God.

We keep PRESSING on, we don't take up political causes. Even Jesus said render to Cesar what is Cesar's and to God what is God's.
God never had the intention of legislating or forcing unbelievers to accept His rule in their lives, in the OT or NT. The Kingdom of God, lies WITHIN.

 

[heretoeternity]

God doesn't change, but vernacular does. Using 400 year old wording to convey what the Greek's functional equivalence is today, is not the way to show what His word says. Abomination in the Bible, always refers to doing something of a blasphemous nature, willfully and knowingly, towards God. That has changed either.

\




The Bible does not change just because you or society thinks it should...you can adjust your standards to the world around you, but that is not what the Bible teaches...as I said before, once and abomination to God, always an abomination to God...God changes NOT.

 

[Barrd]

Exactly, but shining your light does not mean legislating morality. Democracy is NOT in our purview as Christians, only as citizens, just as Paul taught in 1 Cor 5:9-10, 12-13.

When we make laws against public drunkeness, or slander....is this "legislating morality"?
Does our government have the right to tell us how many spouses we may have, or dictate that women may not go bare-chested during the summer months?
Why should there be laws against prostitution?
What about laws against marijuana?
Just where do we draw the line? When does it stop being "to protect the public" and start being "legislating morality"?

All of these issue have exceptions, but the topic has been about homosexuality, which IMO pales in the light of abortion, but then again I'm human and not God.

If we truly belong to Christ, we must speak out against these things.

We keep PRESSING on, we don't take up political causes. Even Jesus said render to Cesar what is Cesar's and to God what is God's.
God never had the intention of legislating or forcing unbelievers to accept His rule in their lives, in the OT or NT. The Kingdom of God, lies WITHIN.

When Jesus said "render unto Ceasar", He certainly wasn't talking about keeping quiet about sin. He was talking about paying tribute money...or, in our society, taxes.
If God never had the intention of legislating His rule in people's lives, why did He write the Ten Commandments in the first place?

I've stood against abortion for nearly 30 years. During that time I have spoken to various groups, been interviewed for radio and a local newspaper, participated in many rallies and marches, circulated petitions...and done many other such things. Is this a "political cause"?
Some might call it that.
Now, I agree with you that abortion is a bigger problem than gay marriage...but gay marriage is a problem. I don't see myself getting as involved with the protest against gay marriage as I have been with the pro-life movement...I'm not that ambitious any more, for one thing...and I'm not nearly as concerned over who is doing what with whom in the privacy of their bedroom as I am about unborn babies being slaughtered to the god of selfishness,,,
But I will continue to support my brothers and sisters who do involve themselves in this "political cause", because it is just and right. I'm not young any more...but I am still a soldier in His army....

 

[Barrd]

I will continue to declare that it is not possible to belong to Jesus Christ, and also to condone sin.

You cannot serve two masters....

I know Who mine is. Do you?

 

[mjrhealth]

I will continue to declare that it is not possible to belong to Jesus Christ, and also to condone sin.

You cannot serve two masters....

I know Who mine is. Do you

Whos condoning sin, you simply dont understand what Jesus has done and what corruption has caused. As for persecution, it was teh people Jesus loved tha tpersecuted Him then and it will be the religious people of today who will persecute His Church. Some things never change. Its happening even now.

 

[StanJ]

The Bible does not change just because you or society thinks it should...you can adjust your standards to the world around you, but that is not what the Bible teaches...as I said before, once and abomination to God, always an abomination to God...God changes NOT.

Of course it does...in language. If you don't understand linguistics, then you should trust the modern Greek scholars who translate the Bible and not stick with a 400 year old version that uses the English word "abomination", out of context. Either that or learn Greek.

 

[StanJ]

When we make laws against public drunkeness, or slander....is this "legislating morality"?
Does our government have the right to tell us how many spouses we may have, or dictate that women may not go bare-chested during the summer months?
Why should there be laws against prostitution?
What about laws against marijuana?
Just where do we draw the line? When does it stop being "to protect the public" and start being "legislating morality"?

Yes, indeed it is.
As our government in concert with those who gave them the democratic mandate to rule, yes they do.
You'll have to ask the people that put them in place.
What about laws against marijuana? I personally think prohibition laws against marijuana are just as unjustifiable as they were against alcohol.
Seat belt laws protect the public. Marijuana laws do not. That would be the line in the sand IMO.
Regardless, God's legislated morality, the OC/OT, was done away with and is now obsolete. He does NOT want us to fight for things He did away with does he? He has written His laws on our hearts, and every believer is accountable to God directly. NOT the case for unbelievers. The have their democracy to do that.

 

[Barrd]

Didn't Jesus say that if we are not with Him, we are against Him?

Either we stand with Him, or we stand against Him.

Now, ask yourself....would Jesus approve of gay marriage? Why or why not?

 

[Barrd]

Yes, indeed it is.

So, our government does, indeed "legislate morality".

As our government in concert with those who gave them the democratic mandate to rule, yes they do.

Suppose the people do not want such laws? Do they not have the right to protest, then?

You'll have to ask the people that put them in place.

In your opinion, should prostitution be illegal? Why or why not?

What about laws against marijuana? I personally think prohibition laws against marijuana are just as unjustifiable as they were against alcohol.
Seat belt laws protect the public. Marijuana laws do not. That would be the line in the sand IMO.

Remember that you are talking to a woman who lost her husband to a drunk driver, and who wound up raising our brood of seven kids all by herself. Alcohol tore my family apart.
Personally, I think alcohol is more harmful than marijuana, and ought to be illegal.

Regardless, God's legislated morality, the OC/OT, was done away with and is now obsolete. He does NOT want us to fight for things He did away with does he? He has written His laws on our hearts, and every believer is accountable to God directly. NOT the case for unbelievers. The have their democracy to do that.

The Ten Commandments are obsolete?
Are you quite sure?

 

[StanJ]

So, our government does, indeed "legislate morality".

Suppose the people do not want such laws? Do they not have the right to protest, then?

In your opinion, should prostitution be illegal? Why or why not?

Remember that you are talking to a woman who lost her husband to a drunk driver, and who wound up raising our brood of seven kids all by herself. Alcohol tore my family apart.
Personally, I think alcohol is more harmful than marijuana, and ought to be illegal.

The Ten Commandments are obsolete?
Are you quite sure?

Yes it does, but social morality, in the context of democracy, is nowhere near what God wants from us. Matt 7:11 makes that clear.

Under democracy they do, but they are still required to obey them, as are we. I don't believe Christians should ever protest laws unless they are laws forcing us to do what God says we shouldn't, and so far in North America, I haven't seen that.

My opinion is from a Christian perspective for a Christian person, so it's a matter of agreeing with God, but again His laws are for US as believers. From my own perspective, prostitution in places like Amsterdam is much more controlled and eliminates much of the criminal and health issue that plague North America.

I was not aware of that, and I feel for you, but alcohol didn't do it, a sinner did. Inanimate objects don't CAUSE sin and destruction, people do. Guns don't kill other people, the people using them do, just as knives and arrows and any other weapons used by people don't kill without the people using them. I am all for weapon control, as I'm all for GUI laws. Jesus never condemned weapons, he said;
“for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" Matt 26:52. I also agree that alcohol is more harmful than marijuana, but remember that the perspectives and motivations of people in power, are NOT always altruistic.

The Mosaic or Levitical Old Covenant is obsolete. God has absolute laws that will always be in place, but we now have the Holy Spirit in us to make them real, not rules written on paper. Remember Jesus said that loving God and loving your neighbour were what ALL the law and commandments hinged on.
If we really love God and our neighbour, we won't contravene any of them.

 

[heretoeternity]

Of course it does...in language. If you don't understand linguistics, then you should trust the modern Greek scholars who translate the Bible and not stick with a 400 year old version that uses the English word "abomination", out of context. Either that or learn Greek.

You should pray for understanding of the Bible, the word of God as it exists...you obviously do not have a grasp on it's meaning...do not question the word of God, accept it...if you think the word of God changes to keep the present fallen society happy, then you should maybe try some other religion, which allows for such activity, whether is be Greek, Judaism, or even Roman religion or whatever...

 

[Barrd]

Yes it does, but social morality, in the context of democracy, is nowhere near what God wants from us. Matt 7:11 makes that clear.

So, you think homosexuality is "socially moral"?

Under democracy they do, but they are still required to obey them, as are we. I don't believe Christians should ever protest laws unless they are laws forcing us to do what God says we shouldn't, and so far in North America, I haven't seen that.

Laws allowing abortion on demand do not require you to do anything...and yet, you do protest them, don't you?
Why?

My opinion is from a Christian perspective for a Christian person, so it's a matter of agreeing with God, but again His laws are for US as believers. From my own perspective, prostitution in places like Amsterdam is much more controlled and eliminates much of the criminal and health issue that plague North America.

You didn't actually answer my question...in your opinion, should our government make laws prohibiting prostitution?
Yes, I realize that those laws would be in agreement with God, but then, so would laws prohibiting gay marriage. What is the difference?
Why should the government prohibit a woman from selling her sexual favors, but allow her to marry marry her lesbian lover?

I was not aware of that, and I feel for you, but alcohol didn't do it, a sinner did. Inanimate objects don't CAUSE sin and destruction, people do. Guns don't kill other people, the people using them do, just as knives and arrows and any other weapons used by people don't kill without the people using them. I am all for weapon control, as I'm all for GUI laws. Jesus never condemned weapons, he said;
“for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" Matt 26:52. I also agree that alcohol is more harmful than marijuana, but remember that the perspectives and motivations of people in power, are NOT always altruistic.

That's true....I have a bottle of brandy in my cupboard that has been there for several years. My brother gave it to me one evening when he came over for dinner, and we never opened it. As far as I know, it has never harmed anyone.
However, there are laws against alcohol abuse, as there ought to be...however, the laws against marijuana are much stricter, and much more likely to be enforced. I think you'll find that, overall, alcohol kills more people every year than guns or knives do...I'm not sure, because I haven't checked statistics on it...but alcohol does seem to bring out the worst in people, from what I've seen.
And yet I've never heard of anyone killing someone else under the influence of pot...have you?

The Mosaic or Levitical Old Covenant is obsolete. God has absolute laws that will always be in place, but we now have the Holy Spirit in us to make them real, not rules written on paper. Remember Jesus said that loving God and loving your neighbour were what ALL the law and commandments hinged on.
If we really love God and our neighbour, we won't contravene any of them.

I don't recall mentioning the Levitical Old Covenant.
I asked you if you thought the Ten Commandments were obsolete.
A completely different question....

 

[River Jordan]

Well, of course it is possible to believe that homosexuality is a sin, without being hateful about it!

Then we should do that, and we should speak out against Christian leaders who engage in hateful speech in the name of our faith.

But it is not possible to believe that it is a sin and condone it. Do you condone rape or murder or child abuse? Same thing...

A good start would be to stop comparing gays to murderers and rapists.

And what does eating shrimp have to do with it?

Scripture says that eating shrimp is also an abomination to God.

 

[Barrd]

Then we should do that, and we should speak out against Christian leaders who engage in hateful speech in the name of our faith.

I think that depends on what you mean by "hateful speech". If you mean idiots who blather about "all gays ought to be killed", or jerks who picket funerals, and stuff like that, then I would agree with you.
But if you mean Christian leaders who call sin what it is, or people who refuse to participate in gay marriage to any extent at all, even baking a cake for the "reception"...then I guess I can't agree with you at all. I believe that we have an obligation to stand up for our faith.

A good start would be to stop comparing gays to murderers and rapists.

Why? Sin is sin, isn't it? Homosexuality is a sexual perversion, no different than bestiality, or pedophilia, or any other sexual perversion, and it is a sin, just like murder or rape are sins. The comparison is a valid one.

Scripture says that eating shrimp is also an abomination to God.

Honestly, River, I think we both know that, while the onus against homosexuality was repeated a few times in the NT, the old Mosaic food laws were not.
Otoh, it is still true that all of the critters on God's "no-no" list are carrion eaters...bottom feeders, that will eat anything that doesn't eat them first.
I've actually seen pigs eating human excrement. If you want to put that stuff in your body, you go right ahead...you can have my share.

Besides, shrimp smell bad, and taste just awful. Yuck.

 

[River Jordan]

I think that depends on what you mean by "hateful speech". If you mean idiots who blather about "all gays ought to be killed", or jerks who picket funerals, and stuff like that, then I would agree with you.

I gave a link to the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's what you describe, plus comparing gays to Nazis, saying things like allowing gay marriage will lead to the end of civilization, etc.

But if you mean Christian leaders who call sin what it is, or people who refuse to participate in gay marriage to any extent at all, even baking a cake for the "reception"...then I guess I can't agree with you at all. I believe that we have an obligation to stand up for our faith.

No, that's not what I'm talking about.

Why? Sin is sin, isn't it? Homosexuality is a sexual perversion, no different than bestiality, or pedophilia, or any other sexual perversion, and it is a sin, just like murder or rape are sins. The comparison is a valid one.

If you truly think it's just fine to compare a committed, loving gay couple to pedophiles, then....well, I really don't know what to say to that, other than you shouldn't be surprised when you get just as much hate blown right back at you. You reap what you sew, and all that.

Honestly, River, I think we both know that, while the onus against homosexuality was repeated a few times in the NT, the old Mosaic food laws were not.

Since when it is a matter of the number of mentions in scripture? If God only says it once, it doesn't really count or isn't very important? :wacko: You'd think if God says something is an abomination, it is exactly that regardless of how many times He says it.