Anti- Christian Crusade.

[StanJ]

I assume that you are talking about this passage?
Heb 8:9-12
Which echoes this passage nearly word for word:
Jer 31:31-34

Now, I had always assumed that God's Law in these passages meant the Ten Commandments. But you think that they have been abolished?
Then, it is now acceptable for Christians to
Worship other gods?
Make and worship idols?
Use God's name as a curse?
Stop putting aside a day for rest and worship?
Dishonor our parents?
Kill?
Steal?
Commit adultery?
Lie about other people?
Jealously long for what does not belong to us?

We can now do all of these things that were once forbidden to us, and not bother about repentance, because these Ten Laws have been abolished?

I didn't get that memo, either....

More or less yes, but you have to read ALL of Heb 8 to START.

God LAW in the NT, always refers to the OC, Mosaic written laws. Yes ALL the written law has been abolished. I'm not sure why you don't understand the purpose and requirement of having the NEW covenant? This is basic Christianity. Are you worried that you can't live under the LAW of the Spirit? It's not hard at all, it just involves submission.

You're using a straw man that is NOT applicable here. Not being under the OC/OT written laws, does NOT mean we are not subject to God's LAW that He writes on our hearts. I suggest you read Romans 6-8 and learn what Paul teaches there.

 

[Barrd]

I didn't say we were. But the point remains...freedom to practice one's religion is not a free pass to break the law.

And I still say that, as a Christian, I insist on my right to practice my faith, even in my business.

You mean something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_acceptance_movement

Well, how 'bout that!
Let me know when the next fat-pride parade is scheduled in my area.
I want to see how far they can waddle....

Yes I have.

Not in my old boss's office, you didn't.

But here's the problem. With gluttony and greed, you're content to let them get their reward when they stand before God. But when it comes to gays, that's not good enough. You fight to keep them from being able to get married, be served at public businesses, or not be fired for simply being gay. Why that extra step for gays, but not for the obese and greedy?

I wish you wouldn't make this personal.
I, for one, am not "content to let them get their reward". If it were up to me, they would give back all the money that they have stolen, with interest, and simply preach the gospel, without sticking their hand out for more money. They would repent and come back to God.
And the same with gluttons. They would repent and come back to God.
I would rather not see anyone end up in hell.

No. But we don't have to be hateful jerks about it either.

No, we don't. On the other hand, we should not be sending them off to hell with a hug and a smile, either.

Those other things have specific victims. Homosexuality is between two consenting adults. That's a significant difference, especially in a secular society.

You are looking at it from a secular, or worldly pov.
I am looking at it as a Christian.
We are bound to clash....

Again we see the double standard. When it comes to money lovers, it's a shrug of the shoulders and.....meh, they'll get theirs in the end. But when it comes to gays, it's crazy, hateful rhetoric and billion dollar campaigns to deny their basic civil rights. Not only that, but the love of money is in our own house. Look at the mega-churches and the prosperity gospel movement.

Again, I'm not sure how sexual perversion ever became a "basic civil right".
However, you do have a point about greed and gluttony.
All three...the gay, the greedy, and the glutton...all are destined for the fire.

"Judgment," saith the Lord, "begins in the House of the Lord."

Would it make you happier if Christians were spending these billions in a campaign against greed?
I can see how that might be a worthwhile battle. However, I do not have the billions to spend. Sorry....

I've posted this here before, and I'll summarize it again. Surveys have shown that young people are leaving Christianity en masse, and one of the main reasons they cite for doing so is they see us as being overly focused on gays, and being hateful about it. I work with the youth program at our church, and I've had many conversations with high schoolers where they ask me why Christians are so obsessed with gays. A lot of these kids know and love people who are gay, and they can't stand to see them demonized so terribly.

I don't know how to break this to you...I suppose the best way is to come right out with it.
Those kids, unless they repent and come back to God, will also end up in hell.
And it is the fault of other Christians, who have not held tightly to the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

IOW, this whole thing is backfiring on us.

No, dear lady, rather everything is working itself out just as God told us that it would:

You do know, I trust, that this is not completely unexpected?

There is a war between the secular world, and the Saints of God.
And the secular world is winning, just as it was prophesied years ago:

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Like I said above, those other things have definite victims. Homosexuality is between two consenting partners. I know very committed, loving gay couples and I can't imagine going up to them and telling them things like that.

Consenting to sin doesn't make it no longer sinful.
Can you imagine your "committed, loving gay couples" suffering in hell through eternity? If that is unthinkable to you, good! You need to tell them the truth.
River, don't you realize that if you do not, their blood will be on your hands?

The Constitution guarantees all citizens equal protection under the law. So when a gay couple wants to enter into a marriage contract, the government has no legal basis on which to deny it, while granting the same thing to a straight couple. The same holds true for public accommodation and employment (e.g., not being fired for being gay). Christian groups have spent untold resources trying to deny all those things to gays, while demanding them for themselves. That's horrible.

Is it?
I wonder if it is as horrible as hell....

 

[River Jordan]

I don't think it's going to work. Kids are always going to be kids. And as I keep saying, the reaction to gays is natural. I don't think that's going to change any time soon, either.

Actually, it is changing. Today's kids are a lot less hateful towards gays than before.

The way things are looking, we'd better get used to it. Christianity is on it's way out.
But this should not come as a surprise to anyone.

So hateful rhetoric towards gays is a factor in driving young people away from the faith, and rather than address the problem we should just shrug our shoulders and keep going with the hateful rhetoric?

Being black is not the same thing as being gay.
One is a skin color and is perfectly natural.
The other is a sexual perversion, and there is nothing natural about it.

You're not addressing the point. You're chastising gays for allegedly targeting businesses where they know they're not welcome. Do you feel the same way towards blacks who did the same in the Civil Rights era?

And I still say that, as a Christian, I insist on my right to practice my faith, even in my business.

And gays insist on their right to public accommodation. That's why we have a court system, to resolve such disputes.

I wish you wouldn't make this personal.
I, for one, am not "content to let them get their reward". If it were up to me, they would give back all the money that they have stolen, with interest, and simply preach the gospel, without sticking their hand out for more money. They would repent and come back to God.
And the same with gluttons. They would repent and come back to God.
I would rather not see anyone end up in hell.

Why do you suppose the Christian community tolerates such sin within our own ranks, while being so over the top hateful towards gays?

Again, I'm not sure how sexual perversion ever became a "basic civil right".

The basic civil rights I'm talking about are non-discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodation, etc.

Would it make you happier if Christians were spending these billions in a campaign against greed?

It would go a long way towards reducing the perception that we're a bunch of hypocrites.

I don't know how to break this to you...I suppose the best way is to come right out with it.
Those kids, unless they repent and come back to God, will also end up in hell.
And it is the fault of other Christians, who have not held tightly to the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

So when these kids tell us they're leaving because of our hateful rhetoric and hypocrisy with gays, shouldn't our response be to address those issues?

There is a war between the secular world, and the Saints of God.
And the secular world is winning, just as it was prophesied years ago:

There's no reason at all to presume that it has to be right now. Our problems are entirely fixable. Perhaps if we weren't so hypocritical and hateful, we would be in the midst of a revival among youth?

Consenting to sin doesn't make it no longer sinful.
Can you imagine your "committed, loving gay couples" suffering in hell through eternity? If that is unthinkable to you, good! You need to tell them the truth.
River, don't you realize that if you do not, their blood will be on your hands?

Of course, but in doing so I don't tell them they're no better than child rapists.

 

[Barrd]

Actually, it is changing. Today's kids are a lot less hateful towards gays than before.

So, you think that today's kids becoming more accepting of sin is a good thing? I can't agree with that at all.

So hateful rhetoric towards gays is a factor in driving young people away from the faith, and rather than address the problem we should just shrug our shoulders and keep going with the hateful rhetoric?

River, my sweet sister, I never once said that we should continue with the hateful rhetoric.
As it happens, I do agree that much of it is over the top.
On the other hand, perhaps Christians would not be so angry if the gay community were not so insistent on rubbing our noses in it.
There is hate on both sides of this issue...or didn't you know that?

You're not addressing the point. You're chastising gays for allegedly targeting businesses where they know they're not welcome. Do you feel the same way towards blacks who did the same in the Civil Rights era?

Not to change the subject, but it wasn't that long ago since my son had a bottle thrown at him from a passing car because he was walking in the wrong place with his black friend. That same black friend told me that I and my kids should not come to visit him where he lives, because white people are not welcome there.
My point is, again, there is hate on both sides.
And hate is always wrong. It is just as much a sin as homosexuality.
And yes....I would have said the same thing, although I do not see the battle for civil rights that black people have fought to be anything at all like this nonsense over gay marriage.
Black people are not insisting on their "right" to violate nature. There is nothing sinful about having black skin. There really is no comparison, and when gay rights advocates make such comparisons, they deeply insult an awful lot of fine, loving black Christian men and women.

And gays insist on their right to public accommodation. That's why we have a court system, to resolve such disputes.

And forcing Christian business owners to violate their faith is a slap in the face to the first amendment. It is a violation of our Constitutional right to the free practice of our religion.

Why do you suppose the Christian community tolerates such sin within our own ranks, while being so over the top hateful towards gays?

Why are some Christians so tolerant of sin?
No respect for the Lord Jesus Christ.
Perhaps, in 2000 years, we have kind of forgotten the horror of the cross...

The basic civil rights I'm talking about are non-discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodation, etc.

I thought we were discussing the right to marry?
This is the first time these other things have been mentioned.
I don't think I'd want to hire a gay person to work for me...unless I am quite sure that he or she is going to leave his/her private life at home. He or she will dress appropriately, as in no cross-dressing, and if his or her partner must come to my place of business there will be no overt demonstrations of affection, etc. Keep it at home, and we'll get along fine. Rub my nose in it, and our working relationship will be over.
Would I rent to them? Probably, as long as they didn't cause any problems.
Public accommodation...if you mean, as a Christian baker, or florist, or whatever, do I have to provide services to a gay wedding? I'd rather not, but if I am forced to, I'm going to make very sure that my "customers" are forced to acknowledge the fact that my business is a Christian business...and that I am doing this against my will.

It would go a long way towards reducing the perception that we're a bunch of hypocrites.

Well, when we encourage sin amongst our ranks, we are a bunch of hypocrites.
Of course, this would include ordaining gay pastors etc, as well.

So when these kids tell us they're leaving because of our hateful rhetoric and hypocrisy with gays, shouldn't our response be to address those issues?

These kids need to understand that homosexuality is something that God has forbidden to mankind. To lure them back into church without this understanding would be to lie to them...and they would still end up in hell, anyway.

There's no reason at all to presume that it has to be right now. Our problems are entirely fixable. Perhaps if we weren't so hypocritical and hateful, we would be in the midst of a revival among youth?

This nonsense over "gay rights" is definitely not the only, or even the worst, problem that the church faces. If it were, you might have a point.
There are plenty of young people who still love the Lord. Winterjam was a raging success last year, and it looks as if it will be again this year. I am really not worried about losing our youth. Having people of any age leave the church because they can not accept God's sovereign law is not really a loss, is it?
Jesus did say that if you love Him, you will obey Him.
I think we'd be a lot better off if we quit worrying about trying to fit in with the rest of the world.
Christianity is not politically correct...nor should it be. We are to follow Jesus, not the world.

Perhaps it isn't "right now". But it is going to happen sooner or later. Just don't let it frighten you.
I've read the end of the story. We live happily ever after....

Of course, but in doing so I don't tell them they're no better than child rapists.

Sin is sin. All sin is vile and filthy.
Mine is. Yours is.
Unless we can confess our sins and turn from them, we will not enter into Heaven.
And your friends will not like the alternative....

 

[Barrd]

More or less yes, but you have to read ALL of Heb 8 to START.

God LAW in the NT, always refers to the OC, Mosaic written laws. Yes ALL the written law has been abolished. I'm not sure why you don't understand the purpose and requirement of having the NEW covenant? This is basic Christianity. Are you worried that you can't live under the LAW of the Spirit? It's not hard at all, it just involves submission.

You're using a straw man that is NOT applicable here. Not being under the OC/OT written laws, does NOT mean we are not subject to God's LAW that He writes on our hearts. I suggest you read Romans 6-8 and learn what Paul teaches there.

And I would suggest that you read the four Gospels, and learn what Jesus teaches there.
Paul not only did not teach against the Ten Commandments, he kept them himself. Taking a few verses out of context does not change that fact.

And do try to remember....
Paul did not die for your sins.
Jesus did that.

I think that if Paul knew that some folks were paying more attention to his writings than they were to the words of Christ, Himself, he would be appalled....

 

[StanJ]

And I would suggest that you read the four Gospels, and learn what Jesus teaches there.
Paul not only did not teach against the Ten Commandments, he kept them himself. Taking a few verses out of context does not change that fact.

And do try to remember....
Paul did not die for your sins.
Jesus did that.

I think that if Paul knew that some folks were paying more attention to his writings than they were to the words of Christ, Himself, he would be appalled....

Really...you're gonna take that cheap shot?
Paul taught that we are NO LONGER under the law. Do I really need to recite all the scripture where he does this?

Rom 2:27
The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
Rom 3:20-21
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Rom 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul KNEW what he was teaching, and it wasn't the LAW. Apparently, you missed that in his letters?

 

[River Jordan]

So, you think that today's kids becoming more accepting of sin is a good thing? I can't agree with that at all.

Why in the world would you equate not being a jerk towards people with accepting their sin? Do you think the only way we can express to someone that what they're doing is sinful is to be hateful about it? I hope that's not what you really think.

River, my sweet sister, I never once said that we should continue with the hateful rhetoric.

Just above when I noted that young people today aren't as hateful towards gays, you equated that with accepting their sin. Obviously the converse is that in order to not accept their sin, we have to be hateful.

As it happens, I do agree that much of it is over the top.
On the other hand, perhaps Christians would not be so angry if the gay community were not so insistent on rubbing our noses in it.
There is hate on both sides of this issue...or didn't you know that?

"Both sides do it" is no excuse.

And yes....I would have said the same thing, although I do not see the battle for civil rights that black people have fought to be anything at all like this nonsense over gay marriage.
Black people are not insisting on their "right" to violate nature. There is nothing sinful about having black skin. There really is no comparison, and when gay rights advocates make such comparisons, they deeply insult an awful lot of fine, loving black Christian men and women.

You may not be aware, but much of the justification for segregation came from southern Christians who truly believed that mixing the races "violated nature". The Virginia judge who first ruled in the Loving v Virginia case (about interracial marriage) actually wrote in his ruling, "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

So there are a lot more similarities than you seem to think.

And forcing Christian business owners to violate their faith is a slap in the face to the first amendment. It is a violation of our Constitutional right to the free practice of our religion.

Like I said earlier, freedom of religion is not a free pass to break the law or infringe on someone else's Constitutional rights.

Why are some Christians so tolerant of sin?
No respect for the Lord Jesus Christ.
Perhaps, in 2000 years, we have kind of forgotten the horror of the cross...

When it comes to love of money, I'm not talking about tolerance; I'm talking about actively embracing it, e.g., televangelists, prosperity gospel, megachurches. We're getting our butts kicked in the court of public opinion, and our own hypocrisy is a big reason why.

I thought we were discussing the right to marry?
This is the first time these other things have been mentioned.

No, I've mentioned those things before.

I don't think I'd want to hire a gay person to work for me...unless I am quite sure that he or she is going to leave his/her private life at home. He or she will dress appropriately, as in no cross-dressing, and if his or her partner must come to my place of business there will be no overt demonstrations of affection, etc. Keep it at home, and we'll get along fine. Rub my nose in it, and our working relationship will be over.

So if you hire a straight person and they come in with their family, holding hands with their spouse and kissing their kids, you're just fine with it. But if a gay person does the exact same thing, they're rubbing your nose in it? Do you see the double standard there?

Public accommodation...if you mean, as a Christian baker, or florist, or whatever, do I have to provide services to a gay wedding? I'd rather not, but if I am forced to, I'm going to make very sure that my "customers" are forced to acknowledge the fact that my business is a Christian business...and that I am doing this against my will.

How would they do that?

These kids need to understand that homosexuality is something that God has forbidden to mankind. To lure them back into church without this understanding would be to lie to them...and they would still end up in hell, anyway.

Again you seem to think that not being a jerk to gays means tolerating their sin.

There are plenty of young people who still love the Lord. Winterjam was a raging success last year, and it looks as if it will be again this year. I am really not worried about losing our youth. Having people of any age leave the church because they can not accept God's sovereign law is not really a loss, is it?

That's not why they're leaving though. Again I get the sense that you're equating not being a jerk with tolerating sin. The youth are basically saying "Yes, scripture teaches that being gay is a sin, but so are lots of other things. Yet from all the hate and rhetoric, you'd think being gay was a extra-special sin that we should focus all our energy on. Isn't it possible to treat gays the same as we treat everyone else, since we're all sinners?"

Perhaps it isn't "right now".

We seem to be going out of our way to make it happen. Kinda like, "Oh, the Bible says people will start to turn away from Christ, so let's be jerks and make it happen now!"

 

[Barrd]

Really...you're gonna take that cheap shot?
Paul taught that we are NO LONGER under the law. Do I really need to recite all the scripture where he does this?

Rom 2:27
The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
Rom 3:20-21
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Rom 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul KNEW what he was teaching, and it wasn't the LAW. Apparently, you missed that in his letters?

What did Jesus teach about the Ten Commandments?

Commandment 1 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8).
Commandment 2 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam...to eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:14). "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow...My servants to...eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20).
Commandment 3 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Mat 12:31). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,...blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20).
Commandment 4 "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (Mat 12:11-12). "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20); there would be no reason to pray this if the Sabbath was not going to be in existence. "And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mk 2:27); this verse tells all who will see which day is the Lord's Day. "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue" (Mk 6:2). "And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). "Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths" (Luke 4:31). "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath...Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" (Luke 6:5,9). "But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath...The Lord then answered him and said, 'Hypocrite...So ought not this woman...be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?'" (Luke (13:14-16). "'Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'...And they could not answer Him regarding these things" (Luke 14:3,6). "are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23).
Commandment 5 "For God commanded saying, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death'" (Mat 15:4). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mat 19:19). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 7:10). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Honor your father and your mother" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 6 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder', and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not murder" (Mat 19:18). "...murders...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Do not murder" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not murder" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 7 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat 5:27-28). "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 5:32). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...adulteries, fornications...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 19:9). "You shall not commit adultery" (Mat 19:18). "...adulteries, fornications...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" (Mk 10:11-12). "Do not commit adultery" (Mk 10:19). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18). "You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery" (Luke 18:20). "'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery'...And Jesus said to her...'sin no more'" (John 8:4,11). "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation" (Rev 2:22).
Commandment 8 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...thefts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not steal" (Mat 19:18). "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer', but you have made it a den of thieves" (Mat 21:13). "...thefts...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23). "Do not steal" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:... Do not steal" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 9 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. But I say to you, do not swear at all" (Mat 5:33-34). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...false witness...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not bear false witness" (Mat 19:18). "Do not bear false witness" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not bear false witness" (Luke 18:20). "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).
Commandment 10 "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on" (Mat 6:25). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "...covetousness...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23).
"I have kept My Father's commandments" (John 15:10).

Now, why would Jesus spend three and a half years both keeping the commandments, and teaching His Apostles to keep them, and command them to continue to obey them and teach them to others....and then bring in some new guy and have him teach something totally different?
The answer is, He didn't. Paul also kept the commandments, and taught others to do the same. Taking him out of context doesn't change that fact.

 

[StanJ]

What did Jesus teach about the Ten Commandments?

Commandment 1 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8).
Commandment 2 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam...to eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:14). "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow...My servants to...eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20).
Commandment 3 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Mat 12:31). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,...blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20).
Commandment 4 "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (Mat 12:11-12). "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20); there would be no reason to pray this if the Sabbath was not going to be in existence. "And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mk 2:27); this verse tells all who will see which day is the Lord's Day. "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue" (Mk 6:2). "And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). "Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths" (Luke 4:31). "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath...Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" (Luke 6:5,9). "But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath...The Lord then answered him and said, 'Hypocrite...So ought not this woman...be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?'" (Luke (13:14-16). "'Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'...And they could not answer Him regarding these things" (Luke 14:3,6). "are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23).
Commandment 5 "For God commanded saying, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death'" (Mat 15:4). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mat 19:19). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 7:10). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Honor your father and your mother" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 6 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder', and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not murder" (Mat 19:18). "...murders...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Do not murder" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not murder" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 7 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat 5:27-28). "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 5:32). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...adulteries, fornications...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 19:9). "You shall not commit adultery" (Mat 19:18). "...adulteries, fornications...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" (Mk 10:11-12). "Do not commit adultery" (Mk 10:19). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18). "You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery" (Luke 18:20). "'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery'...And Jesus said to her...'sin no more'" (John 8:4,11). "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation" (Rev 2:22).
Commandment 8 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...thefts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not steal" (Mat 19:18). "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer', but you have made it a den of thieves" (Mat 21:13). "...thefts...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23). "Do not steal" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:... Do not steal" (Luke 18:20).
Commandment 9 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. But I say to you, do not swear at all" (Mat 5:33-34). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...false witness...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not bear false witness" (Mat 19:18). "Do not bear false witness" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not bear false witness" (Luke 18:20). "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).
Commandment 10 "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on" (Mat 6:25). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "...covetousness...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23).
"I have kept My Father's commandments" (John 15:10).

Now, why would Jesus spend three and a half years both keeping the commandments, and teaching His Apostles to keep them, and command them to continue to obey them and teach them to others....and then bring in some new guy and have him teach something totally different?
The answer is, He didn't. Paul also kept the commandments, and taught others to do the same. Taking him out of context doesn't change that fact.

If you read what you just posted, you'll see Jesus clarified what was being practised, and in the end, brought the NEW covenant. He did the same thing about divorce and the VERBAL laws the Pharisees practised. You assume Jesus referred to the 10 commandments in John 15:10

Jesus confirmed He came to FULFILL the law, which He did when He was crucified. He broke the chains of the OC Law when He was resurrected and brought the end to the law and the POWER of sin. Paul makes that clear in 2 Cor 3:6;
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 

[Barrd]

Why in the world would you equate not being a jerk towards people with accepting their sin? Do you think the only way we can express to someone that what they're doing is sinful is to be hateful about it? I hope that's not what you really think.

I guess it depends on what you mean by being hateful.
Stating that all gays need to be killed is hateful.
Stating that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God is simple truth.

Just above when I noted that young people today aren't as hateful towards gays, you equated that with accepting their sin. Obviously the converse is that in order to not accept their sin, we have to be hateful.

I see your point. However, as you also noted elsewhere, kids to tend to snicker and make snide remarks. I don't see them quietly leaving their gay class mates alone. At least not the kids I've been involved with in my life. Kids are kids everywhere, aren't they?

"Both sides do it" is no excuse.

Perhaps not, but I don't see anyone getting all up in arms because the gay community fires hate at Christians.

You may not be aware, but much of the justification for segregation came from southern Christians who truly believed that mixing the races "violated nature". The Virginia judge who first ruled in the Loving v Virginia case (about interracial marriage) actually wrote in his ruling, "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

There are Southern Christians who believe that to this day.

So there are a lot more similarities than you seem to think.

Except for the plain fact that having black skin is not a sin, but homosexuality is.

Like I said earlier, freedom of religion is not a free pass to break the law or infringe on someone else's Constitutional rights.

The freedom to practice my religion is also a Constitutional right. And I don't recall seeing anything in the First Amendment that says that that right ends when I enter my place of business.

When it comes to love of money, I'm not talking about tolerance; I'm talking about actively embracing it, e.g., televangelists, prosperity gospel, megachurches. We're getting our butts kicked in the court of public opinion, and our own hypocrisy is a big reason why.

First of all, not all Christians actively embrace the love of money....in fact, I'd say that those who do are not truly Christians, they are only using Christianity for their own avarice.
Second, you worry too much about public opinion.

No, I've mentioned those things before.

Perhaps I missed it.

So if you hire a straight person and they come in with their family, holding hands with their spouse and kissing their kids, you're just fine with it. But if a gay person does the exact same thing, they're rubbing your nose in it? Do you see the double standard there?

True story--I was at the mall one afternoon, in the food court. There was a young straight couple there, and they began making out. They were asked to leave.
A couple of weeks later, same place, same people working, another young couple...two young men this time, started doing the same thing. And everyone just looked the other way.
When I asked one of the folks behind the counter about this, they told me that management had told them to lay off because they didn't want the ACLU climbing down their throats...
Do I see a double standard? Yes, I do. I am holding to God's standard.
Whose standard are you holding to?

How would they do that?

How would any tenant do it?

Again you seem to think that not being a jerk to gays means tolerating their sin.

Do you think that John the Baptist was a jerk toward Herod and his "wife", Herodias?
Was Paul a jerk to the guy who had taken his step mother as his wife?
Again, I guess it all depends on what you mean be "being a jerk."
I have never once said that all gays ought to be killed.
But God once did say that...back in the OT. Was He "being a jerk"?

That's not why they're leaving though. Again I get the sense that you're equating not being a jerk with tolerating sin. The youth are basically saying "Yes, scripture teaches that being gay is a sin, but so are lots of other things. Yet from all the hate and rhetoric, you'd think being gay was a extra-special sin that we should focus all our energy on. Isn't it possible to treat gays the same as we treat everyone else, since we're all sinners?"

I doubt if anyone would even notice gays, had they kept their perversion in their own bedrooms. It was when they began to insist that this perversion was "normal" that the trouble began.
River, homosexuality is not "normal". It is a sexual perversion, just like any other sexual perversion. I see no reason at all why we should accord it any special treatment that we would not give to any other sexual perversion.
If we would not let old Aunt Martha marry her German Shepherd, or allow the men of NAMBLA to hold hands with and kiss their little boys in public, or rent a room to the undertaker who wants some special alone time with his latest heart throb, why should we treat gays any differently?
This is not "hate" it is just plain common sense. Homosexuality is a PERVERSION of the natural sex drive, just like any other PERVERSION.
If a rapist is a "filthy pervert", so is a homosexual.

We seem to be going out of our way to make it happen. Kinda like, "Oh, the Bible says people will start to turn away from Christ, so let's be jerks and make it happen now!"

I don't think we can "make it happen." It's going to happen when God says it is going to happen, and there is nothing we can do, either to hurry it along, or to stop it.
We don't need to be afraid of it, though.
As I have said, this is one story that definitely does have a happy ending.
The Prince marries His Bride, and they live happily ever after...

 

[River Jordan]

I guess it depends on what you mean by being hateful.
Stating that all gays need to be killed is hateful.
Stating that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God is simple truth.

We've already been over all the hateful rhetoric coming from the Christian community, so I won't rehash it here. And as we've been over before, eating shrimp is also an abomination to God, yet Christians aren't trying to get shrimp banned, shut down shrimp fisheries, and going to seafood restaurants and calling everyone in there names.

I see your point. However, as you also noted elsewhere, kids to tend to snicker and make snide remarks. I don't see them quietly leaving their gay class mates alone. At least not the kids I've been involved with in my life. Kids are kids everywhere, aren't they?

Well, given your descriptions of where you live, it doesn't surprise me to hear that.

Perhaps not, but I don't see anyone getting all up in arms because the gay community fires hate at Christians.

Given that much of the discrimination and hate towards gays has almost exclusively come from Christians, that's hardly surprising. People tend to side with those being oppressed rather than the oppressors.

There are Southern Christians who believe that to this day.

Except for the plain fact that having black skin is not a sin, but homosexuality is.

I can't tell if you're missing the point, or avoiding it because it's uncomfortable. The fact remains, during the civil rights era blacks deliberately targeted businesses that were discriminating against them. You were fine with that. But now that gays are doing the exact same thing, suddenly that tactic is unacceptable. That's a double standard.

The freedom to practice my religion is also a Constitutional right. And I don't recall seeing anything in the First Amendment that says that that right ends when I enter my place of business.

You also have a Constitutional right to free speech, and there's nothing in the Constitution about slandering another person. Yet your right to free speech is not a free pass to slander people, and if you do so you will be charged with a crime.

You have a Constitutional right to freedom of religion, and there's nothing in the Constitution about discriminating against others. Yet your right to practice your religion is not a free pass to discriminate, and if you do so you will be charged with a crime.

Do you see the point?

First of all, not all Christians actively embrace the love of money....in fact, I'd say that those who do are not truly Christians, they are only using Christianity for their own avarice.

Then we need to do something about it. Can you imagine if all the resources that had been poured into issues about gays had instead gone into what amounts to kicking the money changers out of the church? That's what I hear from a lot of non-Christians...."Why are you so focused on gays? You need to clean out your own house first."

Second, you worry too much about public opinion.

Public opinion of Christianity directly affects our ability to spread the Gospel. If our own actions are jading people against the faith before we even get to talk to them, we're doing something very wrong.

True story--I was at the mall one afternoon, in the food court. There was a young straight couple there, and they began making out. They were asked to leave.
A couple of weeks later, same place, same people working, another young couple...two young men this time, started doing the same thing. And everyone just looked the other way.
When I asked one of the folks behind the counter about this, they told me that management had told them to lay off because they didn't want the ACLU climbing down their throats...
Do I see a double standard? Yes, I do. I am holding to God's standard.
Whose standard are you holding to?

You didn't address the point. You hire a straight guy and one day his wife and kids come in and meet him for lunch. When they come in, he kisses his wife and hugs his kids. No big deal, right. But if it was a gay man and his spouse and kids come in and he gives him a kiss and hugs the kids, suddenly he's "shoving it in your face". But why is that the case with the gay man, but not the straight man?

How would any tenant do it?

You said you would bake a cake or provide flowers for a gay wedding, so long as the customers "are forced to acknowledge the fact that my business is a Christian business...and that I am doing this against my will". The question is, how would you force them to do that?

Do you think that John the Baptist was a jerk toward Herod and his "wife", Herodias?
Was Paul a jerk to the guy who had taken his step mother as his wife?
Again, I guess it all depends on what you mean be "being a jerk."
I have never once said that all gays ought to be killed.
But God once did say that...back in the OT. Was He "being a jerk"?

You seem to be saying that anything less than saying gays should be executed isn't hate. Is that the case?

I doubt if anyone would even notice gays, had they kept their perversion in their own bedrooms.

Would you have separate laws for gays, where straight couples are allowed to hold hands and such in public, but not gays? You'd rather just pretend they don't exist?

It was when they began to insist that this perversion was "normal" that the trouble began.
River, homosexuality is not "normal". It is a sexual perversion, just like any other sexual perversion. I see no reason at all why we should accord it any special treatment that we would not give to any other sexual perversion.
If we would not let old Aunt Martha marry her German Shepherd, or allow the men of NAMBLA to hold hands with and kiss their little boys in public, or rent a room to the undertaker who wants some special alone time with his latest heart throb, why should we treat gays any differently?
This is not "hate" it is just plain common sense. Homosexuality is a PERVERSION of the natural sex drive, just like any other PERVERSION.
If a rapist is a "filthy pervert", so is a homosexual.

This is exactly the sort of rhetoric I'm talking about. All that does is push people away from your message.

I don't think we can "make it happen." It's going to happen when God says it is going to happen, and there is nothing we can do, either to hurry it along, or to stop it.
We don't need to be afraid of it, though.

Then there's no reason for us to shrug our shoulders when we see that our own actions are driving people away from the faith. You can't just say "Oh well, it was bound to happen"...you take action and address the issue.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Actually, it is changing. Today's kids are a lot less hateful towards gays than before.
So hateful rhetoric towards gays is a factor in driving young people away from the faith,

Teaching children to accept what is sinful as an acceptable way of living is morally wrong. And that is what they are being taught.

You're chastising gays for allegedly targeting businesses where they know they're not welcome.
Do you feel the same way towards blacks who did the same in the Civil Rights era?

When radical, activist, God-hating, homosexuals target Christians, we can chastise them.
Having sex in perverted ways is not a civil right.
Those businesses have a First Amendment Right to not have to violate their religious beliefs.

They recently found two islamic employees had a First Amendment Right not to have to deliver alcohol while employed as a truck driver!
That same protection also should have protected that couple running a bakery.
And they baked cakes for the homosexuals who sued them. They just wouldn't violate their First Amendment Right of Faith not to make a homosexually themed wedding cake.

And isn't it interesting that the homosexuals are going after muslim bakeries? Hmmm? Hypocrisy???

 

[River Jordan]

Teaching children to accept what is sinful as an acceptable way of living is morally wrong. And that is what they are being taught.

I see that you also are stuck in black-white thinking. It is possible to believe that being gay is a sin, but not be a hateful jerk about it.

When radical, activist, God-hating, homosexuals target Christians, we can chastise them.
Having sex in perverted ways is not a civil right.
Those businesses have a First Amendment Right to not have to violate their religious beliefs.

Again, freedom to practice one's religion is not a free pass to break the law or infringe on the rights of others.

They recently found two islamic employees had a First Amendment Right not to have to deliver alcohol while employed as a truck driver!
That same protection also should have protected that couple running a bakery.

Those are two different legal issues. With the truck drivers, the employer refused to make reasonable accommodations for the beliefs of the employees. With the bakery, they were trying to discriminate against the public by discriminating against gays. Do you understand the difference?

And they baked cakes for the homosexuals who sued them. They just wouldn't violate their First Amendment Right of Faith not to make a homosexually themed wedding cake.

What case are you talking about?

And isn't it interesting that the homosexuals are going after muslim bakeries? Hmmm? Hypocrisy???

How many people live in areas where there are Muslim bakeries? And to be honest, I'm not aware of any cases where gays actually went out of their way to target Christian bakeries. The only one's I've seen were where the gay couple had no idea they were going to be discriminated against. Do you have a specific case in mind?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I see that you also are stuck in black-white thinking. It is possible to believe that being gay is a sin, but not be a hateful jerk about it.

I see that you are stuck in being against hot-cold thinking. You are lukewarm. What did Jesus say about being lukewarm? And what would you think Jesus would say about your passive-aggressive question which couches an ad homimen attack within it with the very premise that being against sin - which is pretty black and white - as being a hateful jerk?

Doesn't that say a whole lot about your attitude against someone who stands up for what's right and against what's wrong in the world?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Again, freedom to practice one's religion is not a free pass to break the law or infringe on the rights of others.

Two wrongs don't make a right. My mother taught me that.

You may not make someone violate their Right to practice their religion - in order not to "offend" someone else's eggshell concept of their imaginary right to have sex in perverted ways.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Again, freedom to practice one's religion is not a free pass to break the law or infringe on the rights of others.

So you are FOR the heavy hand of an evil federal government to violate the Christian bakers Right to practice their religion.

The First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Congress has made no such law.

The Supreme Court cannot make law.

The President cannot make law.

 

[River Jordan]

I see that you are stuck in being against hot-cold thinking. You are lukewarm. What did Jesus say about being lukewarm? And what would you think Jesus would say about your passive-aggressive question which couches an ad homimen attack within it with the very premise that being against sin - which is pretty black and white - as being a hateful jerk?

Doesn't that say a whole lot about your attitude against someone who stands up for what's right and against what's wrong in the world?

It's sad that you equate "not being a hateful jerk" with "being lukewarm".

You may not make someone violate their Right to practice their religion - in order not to "offend" someone else's eggshell concept of their imaginary right to have sex in perverted ways.

Again, freedom to practice one's religion is not a free pass to break the law. That's just a fact.

So you are FOR the heavy hand of an evil federal government to violate the Christian bakers Right to practice their religion.

Just as a Christian baker who believes God doesn't want the races to mix cannot refuse to bake a cake for an interracial marriage, a Christian baker who believes God doesn't want gays to marry cannot refuse to bake a cake for a same sex marriage. Again, freedom to practice one's religion is not a free pass to break the law.

In this case, the Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law for all citizens, and the Supreme Court has ruled that denying same sex couples marriage licenses is a violation of their Constitutional right to due process and equal protection. Thus, when a same sex couple applies for a marriage license, the state has no legal basis to deny it. So just like there is no specific law authorizing interracial marriage, there is not specific law authorizing same sex marriage. In both cases however, there are Supreme Court rulings saying that laws against them are unconstitutional. IOW, the ability of two people of different races, or two people of the same sex, to enter enter into a consensual legal marriage is an inherent right that the government cannot deny.

So when a married same sex couple walks into a bakery and asks for a cake, they are supposed to have the same rights to public accommodation as everyone else.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

It's sad that you equate "not being a hateful jerk" with "being lukewarm".

I do not equate being a hateful jerk to being lukewarm. You are lukewarm. You defend man's law which goes against God's Law and so would have us mix evil with good.

On top of that, you call people 'hateful jerks' which is quite beyond your ability to discern another's heart attitude and thus you also attempt to preempt what is only for God to know.

You are not my Judge, but you attempt nevertheless to judge me.

As far as this evil world goes, the Supreme Court is as corrupt as the politicians they are in bed with - and that is as unholy an alliance as your "married same sex couple".

By the way, men should not marry men, and women should not marry women.

God set the Law and Jesus affirmed it again: marriage is between a man and a woman.

 

[Barrd]

We've already been over all the hateful rhetoric coming from the Christian community, so I won't rehash it here. And as we've been over before, eating shrimp is also an abomination to God, yet Christians aren't trying to get shrimp banned, shut down shrimp fisheries, and going to seafood restaurants and calling everyone in there names.

First of all, the old Mosaic law has been abolished. We are under a New Covenant now.
However, the law against homosexuality is repeated in the New Covenant, although the dietary laws are not.
On the other hand, it is still true that all of the critters on God's no-no list are carrion eaters, and worse, and that we would be healthier if we ate according to God's diet plan...
But to answer your charge, the reason why Christians are not mounting a campaign against shrimp eaters is, as I've told you, those old dietary laws no longer apply.
However, the law against homosexuality does. Shrimp are no longer an abomination, men having sex with men or women with women is.

Well, given your descriptions of where you live, it doesn't surprise me to hear that.

I do like it here in the Bible belt. In this small town, our kids still pray in school, with the teacher's full approval, we still have "In God We Trust" in the county clerk's office at the courthouse, we still put our nativity scene up at that courthouse and at our public park...and if we have any gays here, they tend to stay in the closet.

Given that much of the discrimination and hate towards gays has almost exclusively come from Christians, that's hardly surprising. People tend to side with those being oppressed rather than the oppressors.

Christians tend to side with God.

I can't tell if you're missing the point, or avoiding it because it's uncomfortable. The fact remains, during the civil rights era blacks deliberately targeted businesses that were discriminating against them. You were fine with that. But now that gays are doing the exact same thing, suddenly that tactic is unacceptable. That's a double standard.

Actually, no, I wasn't "fine with that". Now don't get me wrong, I always have believed that black people deserved to be treated like anyone else, I just never saw the point in trying to force the issue.
I don't know if you've noticed, but there is still a good bit of racial tension in this country, and it's not all just down south, either.

You also have a Constitutional right to free speech, and there's nothing in the Constitution about slandering another person. Yet your right to free speech is not a free pass to slander people, and if you do so you will be charged with a crime.

There are "defamation laws" that apply to everyone. In order to charge someone with slander or libel, you must be able to prove that whatever it was that they said about you was false. If it was true, you have no case. You must be able to prove that there was a real injury. That can be tricky.
And those same "defamation laws" do apply to homosexuals, by the way.

You have a Constitutional right to freedom of religion, and there's nothing in the Constitution about discriminating against others. Yet your right to practice your religion is not a free pass to discriminate, and if you do so you will be charged with a crime.

Forcing someone to violate their religion in order to participate in a gay wedding is a violation of their Constitutional right to freely practice their religion, no matter what you may think about it, or even what SCOTUS thinks about it.

Do you see the point?

The point seems to be that you want Christians everywhere to accept homosexuality, when our God has forbidden it.
This we can not do.

Then we need to do something about it. Can you imagine if all the resources that had been poured into issues about gays had instead gone into what amounts to kicking the money changers out of the church? That's what I hear from a lot of non-Christians...."Why are you so focused on gays? You need to clean out your own house first."

Personally, I think it would be great if Christians would fight against corruption in our own ranks. I would definitely espouse such a cause.
However, that would not change my stance against homosexuality a bit.

Public opinion of Christianity directly affects our ability to spread the Gospel. If our own actions are jading people against the faith before we even get to talk to them, we're doing something very wrong.

Have you not read that it is a narrow and lonely road that leads to life, and that few would find it?
Again, my dear sister, if you are following a crowd, you are going the wrong way.

You didn't address the point. You hire a straight guy and one day his wife and kids come in and meet him for lunch. When they come in, he kisses his wife and hugs his kids. No big deal, right. But if it was a gay man and his spouse and kids come in and he gives him a kiss and hugs the kids, suddenly he's "shoving it in your face". But why is that the case with the gay man, but not the straight man?

Because the straight guy is not practicing a sexual perversion.
I don't understand why you can't see the difference?

You said you would bake a cake or provide flowers for a gay wedding, so long as the customers "are forced to acknowledge the fact that my business is a Christian business...and that I am doing this against my will". The question is, how would you force them to do that?

I would make very sure that emblems of my faith were visible in every bit of work that I was forced to do, including on my cake. I would have any employees who had to deliver whatever goods I am being forced to provide wearing t-shirts that proclaimed that they were Christians, and maybe even have some sort of anti-gay slogan on them. I would make it very plain to all concerned that mine is a business that is dedicated to the Lord, and opposed to homosexuality, in any way I could possibly think of.
Yes, I would go out of my way to make my unwelcome "clients" uncomfortable. "Behold, the Lord has come to your wedding this day. How shall you answer Him?"

 

[Barrd]

You seem to be saying that anything less than saying gays should be executed isn't hate. Is that the case?

Isn't that the kind of thing you objected to?
No, I don't like the idea of anyone being bullied, or beaten, or left homeless or hungry, or any such thing.
On the other hand, I believe that Christians have every right to shun homosexuals, and to declare homosexuality to be what it is....a sexual perversion, the same as any other sexual perversion.

Would you have separate laws for gays, where straight couples are allowed to hold hands and such in public, but not gays?

Yes, I would.
Just as I would have laws against the men of NAMBLA holding hands and such in public with their little boys, or the lady who has sex with her dog to make a show of her affection in public, or for the necrophiliac to bring his dead lover to the mall with him, or any other such thing.
Do these things disgust you? If they do, you have an idea of how homosexuality disgusts me.
It is a perversion, River.
The homosexual is a pervert, just like the lady with her dog, or the man with the little boy, or the undertaker with his corpse. They are no different.

You'd rather just pretend they don't exist?

If only....

This is exactly the sort of rhetoric I'm talking about. All that does is push people away from your message.

Those who have ears to hear will still hear God's message.
Included in God's message is the injunction against homosexuality.

Then there's no reason for us to shrug our shoulders when we see that our own actions are driving people away from the faith. You can't just say "Oh well, it was bound to happen"...you take action and address the issue.

It will happen in God's time regardless of what we do or don't do.
People will come to Jesus as God draws them, and if God does not draw them, they will not come to Him no matter what you do.
I know I told you of my husband's nephew...God drew him, and he repented.
It is God Who saves us, not ourselves, and it is God Who will decide when the end will be.
And once again, we need not fear it.
Rather we ought to embrace it.