Anti-reformers month

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They attacked and rejected Christ!
They started new churches!
The created new doctrine!

how is that reformation?

where does the Bible say to have a reformation?

truth is from God and is immutable!
truth cannot be reformed

God cannot reveal error or be in error!


Only Christ has authority to found the church Matt 16:18 and His church cannot be reformed it is prepared by God and comes down from heaven the spotless bride of Christ!

Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4
Weren't many of the Popes corrupt? I even read I forget which one it was that had Whores living with him in the Vatican committing sexual and profane acts, that many of the Popes were put there as Popes because of the riches and influences they had over the Vatican, so they basically bought their Popehood or whatever term you would use.

Many of the Priests robbed the poor by taking their money and buying their salvation in Heaven.

Do you not know the history of the Popes you praise?
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Christ is king and all must submit to and obey Him and His church His authorized representatives
The church proposes the truths revealed by God with the authority of Christ
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 4:5 Jn 15:1-5

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

the state has divine authority to execute justice
I happen to agree with the above.

What does this have to do with some of the dark moments of the CC?
Absolutely nothing.

What I'm saying is that you cannot deny historical truth.
You're too accustomed to arguing for the CC.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
one thing i have noticed is man wants to control the Church
Man wants to control the church.
Right.

This is why there's a distinction made between man and church.

Even though the CC has made many mistakes throughout history, it is said that
it is still a holy church.

The church is holy...but not all men are.
Holy just meaning that something is set aside to do God's work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Not infallible in matters of discipline no
I know what you're speaking of theefaith.

It would be good to explain it to those that do not understand Catholicism at all.
Or, maybe they don't really care at all - even though I firmly believe we should do our best to understand each other
and believe that we are one in Christ.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Even though the CC has made many mistakes throughout history, it is said that it is still a holy church.
You can't have a holy church without purging what is unholy. So they could start by banishing Pope Francis, and then move on from there. Francis is as unholy as you can get, especially for Catholics. He has banned the traditional Latin Mass on a whim and there has been a considerable backlash.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
You can't have a holy church without purging what is unholy. So they could start by banishing Pope Francis, and then move on from there. Francis is as unholy as you can get, especially for Catholics. He has banned the traditional Latin Mass on a whim and there has been a considerable backlash.
Agreed.

There was a backlash even before the banning of the Latin Mass.

There's been a backlash since about 2012/2013 or thereabouts.
If I remember correctly, it all began with allowing remarried couples to receive communion - in circumstances when they were not formerly allowed to.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
You can't have a holy church without purging what is unholy. So they could start by banishing Pope Francis, and then move on from there. Francis is as unholy as you can get, especially for Catholics. He has banned the traditional Latin Mass on a whim and there has been a considerable backlash.
What would be purged would be MEN,,,just as you've mentioned the Pope.

We cannot purge a church....
There's a difference between the church and the men that run that church.
What Jesus began cannot be purged...it's His church.
Any bible-believing church is the church of Jesus.
 

Truman

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2020
7,931
8,744
113
Brantford
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Do your research...the word church is an added word. Read Revelation 22:18.
I bet you won't because you are blinded by tradition. Go ahead...prove me wrong!
Ecclesia does not mean church. If you want to know the truth, you will have to make a sincere effort.
I don't think you'll do it...why should you change now?
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Do your research...the word church is an added word. Read Revelation 22:18.
I bet you won't because you are blinded by tradition. Go ahead...prove me wrong!
Ecclesia does not mean church. If you want to know the truth, you will have to make a sincere effort.
I don't think you'll do it...why should you change now?
Is this for me?
I read it by chance....because you didn't tag me.

First of all, try to be nice. If you can't be nice, just don't say anything.
Whatever your problem may be -- and I do pray for you.

So what does ecclesia mean Truman?
Does it have anything to do with
Hebrews 10:25?

What does Revelation 22:18 have to do with anything?

And which TRADITION am I blinded by?
You know my thoughts?

And why should I change now?
Change from WHAT to WHAT??

If you can't be nice, don't answer this post.
 

Truman

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2020
7,931
8,744
113
Brantford
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
No, not for anyone in particular. I always piss someone off when I tell them this truth. Oh well!
The ecclesia is supposed to be sanctified, not sanitized.
No one ever looks it up outside of their own texts. I guess people only want to know their truth, not the truth. I guess that's only human.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
No, not for anyone in particular. I always piss someone off when I tell them this truth. Oh well!
The ecclesia is supposed to be sanctified, not sanitized.
No one ever looks it up outside of their own texts. I guess people only want to know their truth, not the truth. I guess that's only human.
Truman,
Ecclesia just means an assembly...a gathering of persons, like we do when we go to church and IF we go to church.

The church IS sanctified...it's the men (persons) that make up the church that cause trouble.
Man has the sin nature....the church does not.

See, you were nice!
:)
 

Truman

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2020
7,931
8,744
113
Brantford
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Church is an added word. It is my contention that it has something to do with the plagues talked about in Revelation 22:18.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Church is an added word. It is my contention that it has something to do with the plagues talked about in Revelation 22:18.
Last post then it's sleepy time here...

Church is not an added word in the way that John meant it.
Then Trinity would be an added word too.
Hypostatic Union would be an added word too.

and others...

The bible does not follow the original manuscripts from which we get our O.T. and N.T. exactly.
This is because when you translate a language it's IMPOSSIBLE to do this word for word because it would make no sense.
Some words must be added so the Greek sentences could make sense to us.

BUT,,,we are not adding words in the sense that we are changing what the bible MEANS to say.
John is saying not to add words that would CHANGE the meaning and not to take away words that would change the meaning.

Please comment, but I'll reply tomorrow morning.

'night.
 

Truman

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2020
7,931
8,744
113
Brantford
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I figure this is a boring subject as it causes people to drift pretty quickly.
 

Truman

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2020
7,931
8,744
113
Brantford
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
BTW Are you Catholic or Protestant? Not that it makes much difference to me.
 

Truman

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2020
7,931
8,744
113
Brantford
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I don't belong to the church anymore...there's a Messianic congregation down the street I'm thinking about attending.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Now this is fascinating, and starkly reveals your frame of mind.
First, I have never suggested the Catholic Church began in the 11th century. The Catholic Church began as a true church in Rome, but it's leaders, when put under pressure from pagan persecution, compromised first by abandoning the Sabbath in favor of the Roman day of the sun, Sunday, and at the same time when Constantine shifted his power base from Rome to Istanbul, this left a vacuum wherein there was needed a civil authority to fill. Sadly, the bishops of time took this upon themselves, and began to enjoy the baubles of office and things went downhill from there on.
The next point need some clarification. Yes, Ireland was converted around the 4th century. But she wasn't the first. There were Gallic communities from Ireland to Asia minor from the 3rd century before Christ. There was a trade route between Asia what Ireland, that led from Asia across northern Italy, southern France, and thence to Ireland and Scotland and Wales. Galatia was Gallic. When in the first century the gospel through Paul and others converted many pagans in that area, in the towns of Ephesus, Thessalonica, Thyatira etc, those converts then shared the good news as they traded and traveled, and they gospel itself reached the shores of Britain much earlier than you would imagine. Patrick's Father was already a Christian minister in his native Scotland, and presided over a church there. Patrick, after being covered himself as a slave, was merely carrying on the practise of preaching and teaching the goods news, and without any input, support, or miraculous nonsense fables about his flying to Rome and removing snakes. Patrick wasn't Catholic. It took several centuries before the church in Rome even acknowledged he ever existed, because the gospel he preached was so different, and the churches and schools he established, so significantly opposed to Rome's growing mix of pagan profane with the holy, and it wasn't until the Celtic church had grown so powerful across both islands that time finally had to admit to Patrick's ministry, and claiming him as their own by the embellishment of fantastic stories and miracles. All lies.
Oh, and there was also a vast difference between how Patrick established the church in Britain, with peaceful means through preaching and serving the communities, raising up ministers from the evangelical schools he established, to the methods used by Clovis on the continent a couple hundred years later. Rome didn't have a gospel to peach. They had coercion and force of arms to convince the people to submit the Pope's authority and rule.
Patrick led the people to Christ. They have up their pagan practises of witchcraft and superstitions, and embraced the cross of Calvary, becoming humble servants of Christ. You on this forum do not peach Christ. You preach submission to papal authority just as Augustine did so many centuries ago. And just as Augustine was rebuked by the Celtic church in Wales and sent packing, do also do I rebuke you. Peach Christ and Him crucified and I'll listen. But you Popes and your rituals and your long tedious prayers and traditions, and your Sunday, don't interest me.
What will you do now? Do as Augustine did and arrange a marriage with a pagan British king and a Catholic princess, who then raised an army against the church in Wales murdering over 3000 students at a school there? I have seen your statements previously espousing the killing of heretics and overpowering opposition by force of arms, even just the past above you continue this train of thought, which is typically Catholic. Will you do thus to those on this forum who reject you?
Any church that takes one small step in the direction of Rome, is taking a leap in the direction of apostasy.
Unbiblical fantasy
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15