Anti-reformers month

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GodsGrace

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The why did Christ “why does Thou persecute me??? When Saul was persecuting the Catholic Church
Let's be careful with history theefaith.
I agree with you that the CC is the first and original church.
It's the only church (denomination) which can be traced all the way back to the Apostles.

However it was NOT the CC when Saul was being persecute.
The Christians of that time still considered themselves to be Jewish believers in the Messiah Jesus.
They had not broken away yet from the synagogue and this did not happen till about the year 100 AD.

You might want to read the following: (there are many articles on this BTW)
The Separation of Christianity from Judaism
 

theefaith

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Let's be careful with history theefaith.
I agree with you that the CC is the first and original church.
It's the only church (denomination) which can be traced all the way back to the Apostles.

However it was NOT the CC when Saul was being persecute.
The Christians of that time still considered themselves to be Jewish believers in the Messiah Jesus.
They had not broken away yet from the synagogue and this did not happen till about the year 100 AD.

You might want to read the following: (there are many articles on this BTW)
The Separation of Christianity from Judaism

so Christ did not found or establish the church? It’s not of divine origin? Not a divine institution?
 

reformed1689

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You also forgot to list why the CC is heretical...
It seems that you think so because of the teaching of purgatory.
This in incorrect teaching...
If you don't agree. then we could safely say that ALL denominations are heretical since they all have some teaching or other that is not
from the church the Apostles left us.
Purgatory, the adding to Scripture via the Pope, Indulgences, works based salvation...
 

GodsGrace

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so Christ did not found or establish the church? It’s not of divine origin? Not a divine institution?

See Matthew 16:18
18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.


In this verse Jesus says that He will build His church.
The word used in Greek is Ekklesia....
Ekklesia does not mean church....TODAY we use the word CHURCH when translating EKKLESIA, but the meaning when it was written in Jesus' time is simply ASSEMBLY.

The first-century definition of ekklesia was stated in the New Testament itself very soon in the story of the spread of Christianity. In Acts 19, Paul came to Ephesus to teach people about Christ. Those who opposed that activity brought to the Ephesian amphitheater what is called in verse 32 and verse 40 an ekklesia. This word is translated by both the King James Version and the American Standard Version as “assembly”

source: You are being redirected...


When Jesus spoke in Matthew 16:18 the word church is used in our bibles.
But Jesus did not really begin a ministry to start His own church...He meant to "fix" Judaism which had grown far from God and the Pharisees were no longer properly leading persons to God.

By the time of Matthew 16:28, Jesus was in His 3rd year of ministry and by this time He might probably discovered that, yes, He would have to build His own assembly of persons, which would be those that believed in Him.

So the assembly Jesus wanted was divine and led by God....
but it did not become a "church" in how we understand it for decades to come.

IOW,,, when He said I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH...He meant, at that moment, His followers...
 
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theefaith

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See Matthew 16:18
18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.


In this verse Jesus says that He will build His church.
The word used in Greek is Ekklesia....
Ekklesia does not mean church....TODAY we use the word CHURCH when translating EKKLESIA, but the meaning when it was written in Jesus' time is simply ASSEMBLY.

The first-century definition of ekklesia was stated in the New Testament itself very soon in the story of the spread of Christianity. In Acts 19, Paul came to Ephesus to teach people about Christ. Those who opposed that activity brought to the Ephesian amphitheater what is called in verse 32 and verse 40 an ekklesia. This word is translated by both the King James Version and the American Standard Version as “assembly”

source: You are being redirected...


When Jesus spoke in Matthew 16:18 the word church is used in our bibles.
But Jesus did not really begin a ministry to start His own church...He meant to "fix" Judaism which had grown far from God and the Pharisees were no longer properly leading persons to God.

By the time of Matthew 16:28, Jesus was in His 3rd year of ministry and by this time He might probably discovered that, yes, He would have to build His own assembly of persons, which would be those that believed in Him.

So the assembly Jesus wanted was divine and led by God....
but it did not become a "church" in how we understand it for decades to come.

IOW,,, when He said I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH...He meant, at that moment, His followers...

church and assembly is the same to me
Followers?
Believers?
Christians are members of Christ and His church by baptism! And it also refers to
His kingdom, vineyard, new covenant, new Jerusalem, house of God, household of faith
 

GodsGrace

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Purgatory, the adding to Scripture via the Pope, Indulgences, works based salvation...
Agreed on purgatory...this is an incorrect teaching.

Adding scripture via the Pope? I don't know what you mean. Do you mean THIS Pope? I'd have to agree...but what he states in only important when he is speaking ex-cathedra although he causes harm to the church even when he makes a simple statement.

Indulgences...agreed.

Works based salvation...do not agree.
The CC teaches that we are saved by faith only...
The rest of it is sanctification, which the CC calls on-going justification- just like we believe.

What I'm saying is that heretical has to touch upon a basic tenet of the Christian faith...
Otherwise every denomination is heretical.
 

GodsGrace

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church and assembly is the same to me
Followers?
Believers?
Christians are members of Christ and His church by baptism! And it also refers to
His kingdom, vineyard, new covenant, new Jerusalem, house of God, household of faith
It might be the same to YOU theefaith...
but history tells us that the Christians tried staying within the synagogue and did not break away for decades after Jesus ascended.

People met in homes basically. A church bldg was a far way off.
If you mean the church as in Church, the Body of Christ, then we all have to agree on your idea.

If you mean the Universal, or Catholic church, then that came some time after Jesus died.
But, like I said, it can be traced back to Peter.
Not that he was the first Pope...
 
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theefaith

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It might be the same to YOU theefaith...
but history tells us that the Christians tried staying within the synagogue and did not break away for decades after Jesus ascended.

People met in homes basically. A church bldg was a far way off.
If you mean the church as in Church, the Body of Christ, then we all have to agree on your idea.

If you mean the Universal, or Catholic church, then that came some time after Jesus died.
But, like I said, it can be traced back to Peter.
Not that he was the first Pope...
Oh yes Isa 22:21-22 matt 16:18-19
 

Ezra

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upon this rock I will build My church;
see its His church there is a church which is a building then we have the church --us when we assemble those who are truly saved are the Church .which has many members the denom name tag will either fall off going up or burn off going down. God does not see names ie: Baptist catholic Calvinist, methodist etc. God looks at the heart man looks at the outward appearance. i can say this the catholic church main teaching is way off.. hail mary purgatory all the ritual prayers. i have girl cousin who got married when i was in my wild days i loved the reception it was party time. the Bible does not promote drunkenness' there are other denoms way off also
 

reformed1689

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Agreed on purgatory...this is an incorrect teaching.

Adding scripture via the Pope? I don't know what you mean. Do you mean THIS Pope? I'd have to agree...but what he states in only important when he is speaking ex-cathedra although he causes harm to the church even when he makes a simple statement.

Indulgences...agreed.

Works based salvation...do not agree.
The CC teaches that we are saved by faith only...
The rest of it is sanctification, which the CC calls on-going justification- just like we believe.

What I'm saying is that heretical has to touch upon a basic tenet of the Christian faith...
Otherwise every denomination is heretical.
Ex Cathedra is unbiblical is what I mean
 

Brakelite

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In the first century the followers of Jesus were called Christians, not Catholics. They were mainly Jews, some of them in Palestine, but others in Asia and elsewhere. Along with those Jewish Christians there were an increasing number of Gentile Christians joining the faith. And in the centuries that followed, as a result of missionary endeavors and forced emigration as a result of persecution, the gospel spread all the ay to Britain, Africa, across Europe and into the far east. There were no denominations, they all had one faith, and their only leader was Christ. As the church grew, it was necessary to organize and oversee church business. Charities, mission, supporting one another under duress, etc. So from early on they appointed by popular vote, bishops and deacons to look after the flock. Others who had special gifts were to evangelise, others to shepherd the flock, etc. In certain areas such as Arabia, where the church grew to such an extent that it covered thousands of miles and had hundreds of thousands of members, where the bishops were numerous and had massive areas to cover, there was appointed a metroplolitan. But all those overseers, of whatever station and responsibility, were equal in rank...they were all brothers. NOne lorded themselves over others or demanded any other to a position of obedience and subjection. Not until Constantine vacated Rome for Istanbul, which he renamed Constantinople.
In Rome there was left a vaccum. Over time, the Roman bishops came to a point where they lusted after the civil power, the secular authority, and the baubles of office that came with that worldly status. The fame, the importance, the social status. By the 6th century, such was this status entrenched into Roman society, that it became officially recognized by the eastern emperor, Justinian. Thus it was a falling away from the purity of devotion only to Christ, to a lusting and competing for political power by what was at one time a true church, that brought about what we now know as the Papacy...the Catholic church. By placing faith and trust in political power and the strength of arms to defend the church and its members, the church in Rome went into apostasy. For some time she had been incorporating the symbolism and traditions of paganism, but this taking over of the civil power was the last straw that divorced her from her Husband, and she became a whore. The following steps further into deeper apostasy came quickly. She used the state and its weapons of warfare to further her grasp on power throughout the following centuries, until such time as she controlled all of Europe. This was the Catholic version of "sharing the gospel". Such was the rise of Catholicism, and the demise of Christianity, in the Roman church. Oh by the way. And Christianity elsewhere? Well, it wasn't long before they became a thorn in the side of the Roman church, and thus it was necessary for Rome to paint those churches in the darkest shades of grey possible, justifying persecuting them, and destroying them by labelling them as "heretic" and lying about their beliefs and practices. Altering history and destroying the written works of those Christian communities became standard practice from Rome to Britain, and everywhere in between. Islam took care of the rest. The connections between Islam and Rome...well, that's another story.
 

GodsGrace

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In the first century the followers of Jesus were called Christians, not Catholics. They were mainly Jews, some of them in Palestine, but others in Asia and elsewhere. Along with those Jewish Christians there were an increasing number of Gentile Christians joining the faith. And in the centuries that followed, as a result of missionary endeavors and forced emigration as a result of persecution, the gospel spread all the ay to Britain, Africa, across Europe and into the far east. There were no denominations, they all had one faith, and their only leader was Christ. As the church grew, it was necessary to organize and oversee church business. Charities, mission, supporting one another under duress, etc. So from early on they appointed by popular vote, bishops and deacons to look after the flock. Others who had special gifts were to evangelise, others to shepherd the flock, etc. In certain areas such as Arabia, where the church grew to such an extent that it covered thousands of miles and had hundreds of thousands of members, where the bishops were numerous and had massive areas to cover, there was appointed a metroplolitan. But all those overseers, of whatever station and responsibility, were equal in rank...they were all brothers. NOne lorded themselves over others or demanded any other to a position of obedience and subjection. Not until Constantine vacated Rome for Istanbul, which he renamed Constantinople.
In Rome there was left a vaccum. Over time, the Roman bishops came to a point where they lusted after the civil power, the secular authority, and the baubles of office that came with that worldly status. The fame, the importance, the social status. By the 6th century, such was this status entrenched into Roman society, that it became officially recognized by the eastern emperor, Justinian. Thus it was a falling away from the purity of devotion only to Christ, to a lusting and competing for political power by what was at one time a true church, that brought about what we now know as the Papacy...the Catholic church. By placing faith and trust in political power and the strength of arms to defend the church and its members, the church in Rome went into apostasy. For some time she had been incorporating the symbolism and traditions of paganism, but this taking over of the civil power was the last straw that divorced her from her Husband, and she became a whore. The following steps further into deeper apostasy came quickly. She used the state and its weapons of warfare to further her grasp on power throughout the following centuries, until such time as she controlled all of Europe. This was the Catholic version of "sharing the gospel". Such was the rise of Catholicism, and the demise of Christianity, in the Roman church. Oh by the way. And Christianity elsewhere? Well, it wasn't long before they became a thorn in the side of the Roman church, and thus it was necessary for Rome to paint those churches in the darkest shades of grey possible, justifying persecuting them, and destroying them by labelling them as "heretic" and lying about their beliefs and practices. Altering history and destroying the written works of those Christian communities became standard practice from Rome to Britain, and everywhere in between. Islam took care of the rest. The connections between Islam and Rome...well, that's another story.
Hey Backlit...
Some paragraphs would be nice!!
It's difficult to read all of the above, but I'll give it a go...
:(
 

GodsGrace

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In the first century the followers of Jesus were called Christians, not Catholics. They were mainly Jews, some of them in Palestine, but others in Asia and elsewhere. Along with those Jewish Christians there were an increasing number of Gentile Christians joining the faith. And in the centuries that followed, as a result of missionary endeavors and forced emigration as a result of persecution, the gospel spread all the ay to Britain, Africa, across Europe and into the far east. There were no denominations, they all had one faith, and their only leader was Christ. As the church grew, it was necessary to organize and oversee church business. Charities, mission, supporting one another under duress, etc. So from early on they appointed by popular vote, bishops and deacons to look after the flock. Others who had special gifts were to evangelise, others to shepherd the flock, etc. In certain areas such as Arabia, where the church grew to such an extent that it covered thousands of miles and had hundreds of thousands of members, where the bishops were numerous and had massive areas to cover, there was appointed a metroplolitan. But all those overseers, of whatever station and responsibility, were equal in rank...they were all brothers. NOne lorded themselves over others or demanded any other to a position of obedience and subjection. Not until Constantine vacated Rome for Istanbul, which he renamed Constantinople.
In Rome there was left a vaccum. Over time, the Roman bishops came to a point where they lusted after the civil power, the secular authority, and the baubles of office that came with that worldly status. The fame, the importance, the social status. By the 6th century, such was this status entrenched into Roman society, that it became officially recognized by the eastern emperor, Justinian. Thus it was a falling away from the purity of devotion only to Christ, to a lusting and competing for political power by what was at one time a true church, that brought about what we now know as the Papacy...the Catholic church. By placing faith and trust in political power and the strength of arms to defend the church and its members, the church in Rome went into apostasy. For some time she had been incorporating the symbolism and traditions of paganism, but this taking over of the civil power was the last straw that divorced her from her Husband, and she became a whore. The following steps further into deeper apostasy came quickly. She used the state and its weapons of warfare to further her grasp on power throughout the following centuries, until such time as she controlled all of Europe. This was the Catholic version of "sharing the gospel". Such was the rise of Catholicism, and the demise of Christianity, in the Roman church. Oh by the way. And Christianity elsewhere? Well, it wasn't long before they became a thorn in the side of the Roman church, and thus it was necessary for Rome to paint those churches in the darkest shades of grey possible, justifying persecuting them, and destroying them by labelling them as "heretic" and lying about their beliefs and practices. Altering history and destroying the written works of those Christian communities became standard practice from Rome to Britain, and everywhere in between. Islam took care of the rest. The connections between Islam and Rome...well, that's another story.
I agree with most of the above, but you left out some important history.

Christians in the 1st century referred to themselves as the universal church....the word for universal is catholic.
That's how we came to have the Catholic Church.

I'd also add that the Bishops were part of a hierarchy - I think you romanticise the non-existence of a hierarchy in order to make the church sound more "pure". A hierarchy was necessary as the church grew.

The top of the hierarchy was the Bishop. There were 5 areas of most importance and the 5 Bishops of those areas were called "pope" which has a specific meaning but I won't get into it, it's not important.

The five areas are:
Jerusalem
Rome
Constantinople
Alessandria
Antioch

Eventually, when there was a question to settle, the other Bishops began to depend on Rome...
this is why it was decided to only call the Bishop of Rome, Pope. To this day, the Pope is the Bishop of Rome.
 

GodsGrace

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see its His church there is a church which is a building then we have the church --us when we assemble those who are truly saved are the Church .which has many members the denom name tag will either fall off going up or burn off going down. God does not see names ie: Baptist catholic Calvinist, methodist etc. God looks at the heart man looks at the outward appearance. i can say this the catholic church main teaching is way off.. hail mary purgatory all the ritual prayers. i have girl cousin who got married when i was in my wild days i loved the reception it was party time. the Bible does not promote drunkenness' there are other denoms way off also
I agree with you.

The CC does have some teachings that are off, as you put it.
I do have to say that most persons that go to the CC are most probably not saved, although it's not my place to judge anyone's soul and I'll leave that up to God...but from the looks of it.....

Yeah. Most weddings are party time due to the above reason.


I'd say that, yes, every denomination has some incorrect teaching.
I might start a thread on this, maybe in theology...
 

Desire Of All Nations

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And notice it says nothing about the church being the authority. Nothing.
Actually, that is exactly what 1 Tim. 3:15 says. God's Church is the authority on what constitutes truth as long it is led by the Source of all truth.
there is absolutely no reason to join Rome as Rome is not Christian.
According to Rev. 17:5, Protestants never left Rome. The Bible says the harlot church and its protesting daughter churches are all equally antichrist and that they are operating in opposition to God's true Church(Rev. 12::17, 14:12). You also might want to read what Isaiah wrote about how all Protestants are prophesied to return to their mother church(Isa. 47:1-8). It's already happening in America and Europe right now, so i can safely guarantee that any attempts to insist Isa. 47:1-8 doesn't say that will be for nothing.

While Protestants glorify the Reformation, they don't do the slightest bit of research about it. If they did, they would know that Martin Luther and most of the other Reformers never completely renounced Catholicism. The only thing they really did was severe themselves from the ecclesiastical authority of the pope, which they ironically still acknowledged by keeping the festivals that the popes declared as Christian. Martin Luther and Carlstadt even had a falling out over the latter's desire to completely reform their beliefs and Martin wanting to retain the Eucharist as a Protestant custom. And the incredible irony of it all is that for the past 5 centuries, Protestants all over the world have convinced themselves that Martin reintroduced the professing Christian world to biblical Christianity.
Yet that criminal on the cross who put his faith in Christ entered Heaven. And so have countless Christians who never went to a fantasyland called "Purgatory".
Jhn 3 says no human being besides Christ was ever going to Heaven. The idea that deceased Christians are in Heaven is just as fictitious as purgatory, as the Bible clearly teaches in the Matthew, Psalms, Hebrews, Revelation, and other books that going to Heaven is not the Christian's reward.

There is a clear disconnect between the belief that people go to Heaven and the Bible teaching the resurrection of the dead. As problematic as the Pharisees' doctrines were, even they had enough sense to know the scriptures taught that the deceased followers of God would be resurrected to eternal life.