Anybody out there worried about the U.S. presidential election?
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I don't. I think that's a completely silly reason to think that someone who has been in a Christian church for over 20 years isn't Christian.
That was just a warning sign. After going to his website now I know for sure.
That was just a warning sign. After going to his website now I know for sure.
(For Life;35227)
That was just a warning sign. After going to his website now I know for sure.
Care to elaborate?
That was just a warning sign. After going to his website now I know for sure.
Care to elaborate?
I hope some of you folks saw the Che Guevara flag in the Obama offices, I'm afraid people won't wake up and realize what they are dealing with. Communism is alive and well in this nation and it may just win this time around. What's sad about it all is that this worthless pile is compared to Reagan, the man that made sure Communism was brought down.I await Yeshua to set things straight.
Care to elaborate?
I saw racism, perceived persecution, and socialism. And this was from a church. I don't see these as christian values.
I saw racism, perceived persecution, and socialism. And this was from a church. I don't see these as christian values.
(For Life;35672)
I saw racism
I didn't see this at all. I saw an acknowledgment of the truth of racial and social inequity. And social inequity was a very important issue for early Christians.(For Life)
perceived persecution
This is strange, because early Christians definitely saw themselves as being persecuted by the Roman Empire.(For Life)
and socialism.
To be honest, I saw Jesus as much closer to a socialist than a free market capitalist. Though again, I really don't see where you found this on the site.The situation of blacks and other minorities in America is very analogous to the situation of Christians in the first century, so it doesn't seem strange at all that they would find Christianity to be empowering for their cause (and I assume that you'll at least not dispute that racial equity is a noble cause).
I saw racism
I didn't see this at all. I saw an acknowledgment of the truth of racial and social inequity. And social inequity was a very important issue for early Christians.(For Life)
perceived persecution
This is strange, because early Christians definitely saw themselves as being persecuted by the Roman Empire.(For Life)
and socialism.
To be honest, I saw Jesus as much closer to a socialist than a free market capitalist. Though again, I really don't see where you found this on the site.The situation of blacks and other minorities in America is very analogous to the situation of Christians in the first century, so it doesn't seem strange at all that they would find Christianity to be empowering for their cause (and I assume that you'll at least not dispute that racial equity is a noble cause).
This is strange, because early Christians definitely saw themselves as being persecuted by the Roman Empire.
Well the early Christians were being fed to lions by the Roman Empire so their persecution was real. Minorities in America are seeing inequality, but it is in their favor. I think when a minority can run for President of the US and be winning that race, that racial persecution was over quite a long time ago. Now there are two classes of citizens as I see it. One class wants government control of their lives and the other doesn't. The one that wants government control uses race to drive a wedge between the people who don't want it. Divide and conquer so to speak.
To be honest, I saw Jesus as much closer to a socialist than a free market capitalist.
Jesus is against evil, therefore He is against socialism. I don't see how God would want to take from the hardworking to give to the slothful. Doesn't make sense. What does make sense is God Blessing the hard work of individuals.
Well the early Christians were being fed to lions by the Roman Empire so their persecution was real. Minorities in America are seeing inequality, but it is in their favor. I think when a minority can run for President of the US and be winning that race, that racial persecution was over quite a long time ago. Now there are two classes of citizens as I see it. One class wants government control of their lives and the other doesn't. The one that wants government control uses race to drive a wedge between the people who don't want it. Divide and conquer so to speak.
To be honest, I saw Jesus as much closer to a socialist than a free market capitalist.
Jesus is against evil, therefore He is against socialism. I don't see how God would want to take from the hardworking to give to the slothful. Doesn't make sense. What does make sense is God Blessing the hard work of individuals.
I didn't see this at all. I saw an acknowledgment of the truth of racial and social inequity. And social inequity was a very important issue for early Christians.
If a white male uses the phrase "white empowerment" he is labeled a Nazi. Similarly, if a black male - or church in this case - uses this phrase - they're "fighting against the system that is so harsh." This church holds a different pastor for each ministry and has very affluent membership. Obama himself is a US Senator running for President and seems to be the frontrunner.I'm missing the racial inequality there.I say this after I spent my life growing up in supposedly the racebelt. I say that after having just finished a book by a very successful and intelligent Black Entrepreneur that graduated from the most prestigious schools in our country.
To be honest, I saw Jesus as much closer to a socialist than a free market capitalist. Though again, I really don't see where you found this on the site.
I notice you keep saying you don't want to debate this, yet you keep asserting this point. I'd like you to provide an example of where Jesus taught that we need to create a government to redistribute. I'm pretty sure all the examples were private charity. The very same book that says what you maintain also says you don't eat if you don't work.
If a white male uses the phrase "white empowerment" he is labeled a Nazi. Similarly, if a black male - or church in this case - uses this phrase - they're "fighting against the system that is so harsh." This church holds a different pastor for each ministry and has very affluent membership. Obama himself is a US Senator running for President and seems to be the frontrunner.I'm missing the racial inequality there.I say this after I spent my life growing up in supposedly the racebelt. I say that after having just finished a book by a very successful and intelligent Black Entrepreneur that graduated from the most prestigious schools in our country.
To be honest, I saw Jesus as much closer to a socialist than a free market capitalist. Though again, I really don't see where you found this on the site.
I notice you keep saying you don't want to debate this, yet you keep asserting this point. I'd like you to provide an example of where Jesus taught that we need to create a government to redistribute. I'm pretty sure all the examples were private charity. The very same book that says what you maintain also says you don't eat if you don't work.
I googled his church and their pro gay marriage, and he personally has to be pro abortion.His pastor is one of those angry at white folk kind of guy.
(Denver;35743)
If a white male uses the phrase "white empowerment" he is labeled a Nazi. Similarly, if a black male - or church in this case - uses this phrase - they're "fighting against the system that is so harsh."
This is completely irrelevant, because I don't see the phrase "black empowerment" anywhere on that site or in Barack Obama's campaign.(Denver;35743)
I notice you keep saying you don't want to debate this, yet you keep asserting this point. I'd like you to provide an example of where Jesus taught that we need to create a government to redistribute. I'm pretty sure all the examples were private charity. The very same book that says what you maintain also says you don't eat if you don't work.
I don't actually ever recall saying that I wasn't going to debate this. If you're asking for Jesus to say specific things about what government ought to be, then that's a losing proposition whether you think Jesus was a socialist or a free-market capitalist, because Jesus was not a politician. He did not make concrete claims about the sorts of governments we ought to adopt, one way or the other. But if you were to look at the trends in his ideals, I think that they most certainly lean towards the socialist side. Acts 2:44 is a good example, as are the famous quotes ""If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all," (Mark 9:35) and "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5) The Mark quote in particular I find to be very evocative of socialism - suggesting that we ought to be the "servant of all" definitely suggests that we each have an ethical obligation to society as a whole. Jesus frequently shows sympathy for the poor ("Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God") and disdain for the rich ("Truly I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"). Christ's message is clear - sharing of wealth is not optional. Giving to the poor and advocating social equity is central. And while, aside from his advocation of communal living, there is not a whole lot of direct evidence of his supporting a strictly socialistic political scheme, he's certainly not advocating free-market capitalism, either. But if we were to go one way or the other, I'd say that his focus on sharing as necessary - not optional - and putting others before one's self definitely paint him as more of a socialist.(crooner;35749)
I googled his church and their pro gay marriage, and he personally has to be pro abortion.
When did these become the only two Christian issues? They are so trivial when you think of the larger picture. There is genocide going on in Darfur and we are worried about what a politicians thinks of what two men do in their bedrooms...this is not what Christ would want.
If a white male uses the phrase "white empowerment" he is labeled a Nazi. Similarly, if a black male - or church in this case - uses this phrase - they're "fighting against the system that is so harsh."
This is completely irrelevant, because I don't see the phrase "black empowerment" anywhere on that site or in Barack Obama's campaign.(Denver;35743)
I notice you keep saying you don't want to debate this, yet you keep asserting this point. I'd like you to provide an example of where Jesus taught that we need to create a government to redistribute. I'm pretty sure all the examples were private charity. The very same book that says what you maintain also says you don't eat if you don't work.
I don't actually ever recall saying that I wasn't going to debate this. If you're asking for Jesus to say specific things about what government ought to be, then that's a losing proposition whether you think Jesus was a socialist or a free-market capitalist, because Jesus was not a politician. He did not make concrete claims about the sorts of governments we ought to adopt, one way or the other. But if you were to look at the trends in his ideals, I think that they most certainly lean towards the socialist side. Acts 2:44 is a good example, as are the famous quotes ""If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all," (Mark 9:35) and "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5) The Mark quote in particular I find to be very evocative of socialism - suggesting that we ought to be the "servant of all" definitely suggests that we each have an ethical obligation to society as a whole. Jesus frequently shows sympathy for the poor ("Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God") and disdain for the rich ("Truly I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"). Christ's message is clear - sharing of wealth is not optional. Giving to the poor and advocating social equity is central. And while, aside from his advocation of communal living, there is not a whole lot of direct evidence of his supporting a strictly socialistic political scheme, he's certainly not advocating free-market capitalism, either. But if we were to go one way or the other, I'd say that his focus on sharing as necessary - not optional - and putting others before one's self definitely paint him as more of a socialist.(crooner;35749)
I googled his church and their pro gay marriage, and he personally has to be pro abortion.
When did these become the only two Christian issues? They are so trivial when you think of the larger picture. There is genocide going on in Darfur and we are worried about what a politicians thinks of what two men do in their bedrooms...this is not what Christ would want.
This is completely irrelevant, because I don't see the phrase "black empowerment" anywhere on that site or in Barack Obama's campaign.
I'm so glad you take everything you see exactly at face value.
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.
Funny how websites always get edited when the scrutiny starts. I notice several missing sections since the last time I looked at the website, but the above along with their 10 point plan speaks volumes despite the now veiled language.
I don't actually ever recall saying that I wasn't going to debate this.
And I quote
This was stated the moment I brought up Obama's healthcare, which is part of this big government does everything for you thing we call socialism and/or communism.)
Well, I'm not sure I really want this to segue into a debate over health care
For someone so concerned with the wellbeing of the people, you don't want to hear it when programs that sound so good don't work in the ideal manner. This is pretty much the typical response of anyone drawn to Obama. You start asking questions, and they suddenly don't wanna hear it.I think my point stands quite proven. Private charity and forced social charity are not one in the same and you couldn't give an example otherwise quite clearly. Thanks for proving my point.You'll also notice that I never used free market capitalism in my posts, so let's get that out of the way as well. It's a bit of a red herring to say the least.As we know, Christ was the Word made flesh.II Thessalonians 3:8
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
This is not the luxury of anything, this is not free handouts... If they don't work, they don't eat.I'm sorry, but I just don't believe in robbing the very food from our tables to give someone else healthcare.
I'm so glad you take everything you see exactly at face value.
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.
Funny how websites always get edited when the scrutiny starts. I notice several missing sections since the last time I looked at the website, but the above along with their 10 point plan speaks volumes despite the now veiled language.
I don't actually ever recall saying that I wasn't going to debate this.
And I quote
This was stated the moment I brought up Obama's healthcare, which is part of this big government does everything for you thing we call socialism and/or communism.)Well, I'm not sure I really want this to segue into a debate over health care
For someone so concerned with the wellbeing of the people, you don't want to hear it when programs that sound so good don't work in the ideal manner. This is pretty much the typical response of anyone drawn to Obama. You start asking questions, and they suddenly don't wanna hear it.I think my point stands quite proven. Private charity and forced social charity are not one in the same and you couldn't give an example otherwise quite clearly. Thanks for proving my point.You'll also notice that I never used free market capitalism in my posts, so let's get that out of the way as well. It's a bit of a red herring to say the least.As we know, Christ was the Word made flesh.II Thessalonians 3:8
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
This is not the luxury of anything, this is not free handouts... If they don't work, they don't eat.I'm sorry, but I just don't believe in robbing the very food from our tables to give someone else healthcare.
Lunar,Jesus would be socialistic? Jesus never advocates Robin Hoodlism. Paul in Romans 13 says what government function is; namely to punish evil and protect rights. To say that Jesus did not speak of politics is just wrong and I think shows somewhat of an antiTrinitarian mind set. You must ignore most of the Old Testament and New Testament to act as though God does not instruct civil magistrates. You must be very careful not to take what God commands man and apply it to the civil magistrate (CM) and vice versa. The individual is not to personally punish evildoers except those he has authority over and even then, he is not given the power to take a person's life. THat is the CM's job. In the same respect God commands individuals and the church to provide for the welfare and care of those who are truly in need. The first responsibility lies on the family and then the church. The CM was never given authority to take money from certain people and give it to others in the name of charity. That is stealing. Many Christians that advocate Socialism are not rightly dividing the Word. If a CM desires to give charitably, then he should do so with his own wages and not those of the citizens. He has no authorization from God to do such.You should really read Vindiciae, Contra Tyrannos sometime and some of the earlier Christian political writers. There are some very good books that influenced the Founders of this country a great deal.
Firstly, I said that I didn't want to segue into a debate about health care because this is thread is not a debate about health care. That's called derailing the topic. Talking about health care policies in the United States today, and about what Jesus would have wanted us to do with respect to distribution of wealth, are two very different issues. With that out of the way...(Denver;36033)
]I think my point stands quite proven. Private charity and forced social charity are not one in the same and you couldn't give an example otherwise quite clearly. Thanks for proving my point.
Did you read my post? I quoted several verses, you can find them above. According to Jesus, redistribution of wealth is not optional. We can have a separate debate over whether this redistribution of wealth ought to be through the state or through personal charity, but you're reading things far too literally if you conclude from his saying that we ought to "give our money to the poor" that that is the exact manner in which money ought to be given to the poor and no other. This isn't the first-century Roman Empire. If you refuse to implement a redistribution of wealth into the government itself, and leave it all up to private charity, then you must understand the consequences of your actions. Whether or not you think people ought to give to charity, the fact is that very few do. Jesus wanted us to make a choice that would lead to social equity, and would help the poor. Socialism does that. Private charity isn't going to cut it.(Denver)
You'll also notice that I never used free market capitalism in my posts, so let's get that out of the way as well. It's a bit of a red herring to say the least.
What is it, exactly, that you're advocating then?(Denver)
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe in robbing the very food from our tables to give someone else healthcare.
That's good, because nobody is proposing this. No one is going to have their income taxed so heavily that they can't afford food.Oh, and just to put this on the table - I am unashamedly socialistic, so if we want this to be an actual discussion you'll have to stop using it as a pejorative and start explaining why we can't accomplish it here, when so many other nations have essentially adopted it successfully.
]I think my point stands quite proven. Private charity and forced social charity are not one in the same and you couldn't give an example otherwise quite clearly. Thanks for proving my point.
Did you read my post? I quoted several verses, you can find them above. According to Jesus, redistribution of wealth is not optional. We can have a separate debate over whether this redistribution of wealth ought to be through the state or through personal charity, but you're reading things far too literally if you conclude from his saying that we ought to "give our money to the poor" that that is the exact manner in which money ought to be given to the poor and no other. This isn't the first-century Roman Empire. If you refuse to implement a redistribution of wealth into the government itself, and leave it all up to private charity, then you must understand the consequences of your actions. Whether or not you think people ought to give to charity, the fact is that very few do. Jesus wanted us to make a choice that would lead to social equity, and would help the poor. Socialism does that. Private charity isn't going to cut it.(Denver)
You'll also notice that I never used free market capitalism in my posts, so let's get that out of the way as well. It's a bit of a red herring to say the least.
What is it, exactly, that you're advocating then?(Denver)
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe in robbing the very food from our tables to give someone else healthcare.
That's good, because nobody is proposing this. No one is going to have their income taxed so heavily that they can't afford food.Oh, and just to put this on the table - I am unashamedly socialistic, so if we want this to be an actual discussion you'll have to stop using it as a pejorative and start explaining why we can't accomplish it here, when so many other nations have essentially adopted it successfully.
I fear for the presidential election a little bit. I am fearful of a Barack Obama win. I am against, just about everything he stands for. I respect him, but in my opinion, he is going to lead this nation to its downfall.Firstly, he is pro-abortion- he supports the legalization of mercilessly slaughtering millions of innocent lives that havn't even had a chance to enjoy life. A person cannot just kill their baby simply because they do not feel like taking care of it, that is just disgusting, I am sorry.He is anti-family- I do respect him for saying that marriage is between one man and one woman, but he is most likely going to change in support of gay marriage. Marriage has been a sacred union between one man and one woman in the eyes of God for eternity. But, Senator Obama wishes to destroy this essential family sacrament.He is for Government Funded Healthcare- this is the first step towards Socialism. I know many people who support Socialism, simply because it seems to be working, but ina few years, it shall evolve into Communism, which can only be controled by a dictator, and then eventually lead to collapse. I thought a nation was supposed to represented and put together by its people, not the government. As much as I would love for people to have free healthcare, it just simply cannot happen. I reside in New Jersey, where our state taxes are already high enough. My parents can barely afford anything, and we are drowning in debt every month. Now, Obama wishes to increase the Federal Taxes? As if I am not paying enough already? Besides taxation issues, Government healthcare is like, for example, public school food. In the United Kingdom, hundreds of people die before they are even treated. The doctors aren't passionate about their work, because they work for the government, and the simply do not care.He wishes to withdraw from Iraq- I opposed this war, but now, we are so far deep into it, there is no turning back now. We cannot just pull out and pretend this never happened. There are going to be repricutions. First of all, the Iraqi government is going to collapse. Every Islamic Extremist and terrorist group in the world is going to see Iraq as a safe haven, and this will eventually lead to another attack in US soil. We are beginning to win in Iraq, we are winning. Operation Phantom Phoenix has been launched, and we are closing in on remaining al-Quada in a province in Northern Iraq. We cannot wave the white flag, and retreat. The al-Quada would have won then.He wanted to also give free amnesty to ILLEGAL immigrants. They have come here illegally, so they should not have rights. You are going to give the message that anybody can just come here, and we are going to have a giant migration, and a bunch of trouble.He only has 3 years of expierence in the Senate, and absolutely no military expierence. We are at WAR. Our economy is at the brink of recession, we need an expierence candidate. I do not care about his skin color or his personality.Sorry, I didn't meant to bash Obama too much. I know all of you guys' have your views, and I have mine.God bless
and vote wisely.
John McCain says that he believes in evolution. But then rebukes it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ88l5ql_FQYou can see the guilt in his face for saying that. A million thoughts must have passed his mind at that moment.Here is Huckabee's answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXajXz4DF1w
Oh, and just to put this on the table - I am unashamedly socialistic, so if we want this to be an actual discussion you'll have to stop using it as a pejorative and start explaining why we can't accomplish it here, when so many other nations have essentially adopted it successfully.
Simple, the ones that have imposed it are dying. China is coming out of Communism little by little and they're talking about this being an Asian century. Europe, unfortunately for our friends over there, is not in good shape. England just nationlized one of its banks and even the hardest proponents of socialism know where this is going. Europe is dying away and slowly being replaced by other people as they pay them to take over, quite literally.Now let's fast forward to America where the same process is starting. We already have 10% of our population here illegally paying little to no taxes. However, we'd like to pay for these people to have healthcare, amongst other things.You're taking a system in Europe and trying to apply it to America where the country is as big as the entire continent put together and then tell me it doesn't cost? We have far and away the largest budget and yet we either don't have these programs or have a fraction of them in place at best - talking single digit percentages.In man's ignorance to supposedly want to help others, he seems to ignore the parts that hurt the rest. I don't know where you folks plan to get the trillions of dollars it will take to run a healthcare program from. I don't know when you're gonna find the $800 going on $900 BILLION dollars to combat world poverty from.Jesus never took possessions my friend, he knew those that love him will do what's right. Salvation itself is not communistic/socialistic. It takes you doing something, no matter how simple it is, in order to accept God's grace.I've never heard anyone rally around the cry "steal from the poor and give to the poor" but that certainly seems to be happening now.
Simple, the ones that have imposed it are dying. China is coming out of Communism little by little and they're talking about this being an Asian century. Europe, unfortunately for our friends over there, is not in good shape. England just nationlized one of its banks and even the hardest proponents of socialism know where this is going. Europe is dying away and slowly being replaced by other people as they pay them to take over, quite literally.Now let's fast forward to America where the same process is starting. We already have 10% of our population here illegally paying little to no taxes. However, we'd like to pay for these people to have healthcare, amongst other things.You're taking a system in Europe and trying to apply it to America where the country is as big as the entire continent put together and then tell me it doesn't cost? We have far and away the largest budget and yet we either don't have these programs or have a fraction of them in place at best - talking single digit percentages.In man's ignorance to supposedly want to help others, he seems to ignore the parts that hurt the rest. I don't know where you folks plan to get the trillions of dollars it will take to run a healthcare program from. I don't know when you're gonna find the $800 going on $900 BILLION dollars to combat world poverty from.Jesus never took possessions my friend, he knew those that love him will do what's right. Salvation itself is not communistic/socialistic. It takes you doing something, no matter how simple it is, in order to accept God's grace.I've never heard anyone rally around the cry "steal from the poor and give to the poor" but that certainly seems to be happening now.
Our society has romanticized Robin Hood. Oh what a great man he was to STEAL from folks in order to help the poor. Has anyone noticed that good ol' Robin Hood didn't have a JOB? The bureaucrats in Washington and every state capitol (Democrats and Republicans) are acting out Robin Hood's philosophy. Their "job" is to promise things to the poor and make the special interests and lobbyists rich, while also lining their own pockets. Robin Hood was a dirty thief, but at least he was not called "God's minister to you for good." (Romans 13:4)
