Apologetics of low interest in churches

[OzSpen]

I live in a very secular, pluralistic country of Australia.

Unless I preach on a apologetics topic in my preaching as an occasional preacher, apologetics' topics go unnoticed in the church I attend.

My observation of churches in Australia and especially in my region of northern Brisbane suburbs, is that apologetics is seldom mentioned. I have been to Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Baptist, Churches of Christ and Pentecostal churches and none of them has apologetics as a core platform of ministry in this very secular Australia. Why is this?

What is it like in your part of the world? I can't remember the seminar on apologetics that I saw advertised in any local church.

I'm interested in hearing how it plays out in your part of the world, and especially if you live in a secularised country like my own.

Oz

 

[Born_Again]

I myself am big into apologetics. However, I have spoke with quite a few people who don't really care for it. The biggest reason, that I see, is that they don't fully understand exactly what it is. A lot of Churches now days are more focused on the relationship with Jesus. They don't want to get into the defense of their faith.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Case in point, you have one reply. The church believes that we lose our young people because we don't listen to them, because church isn't hip or relevant. Nonsense!! We lose because unbelievers are way more evangelical in their apologetics than we are. So, we have dying churches with no pastors because no one is entering the ministry.

God will take care of this problem. I just wish we would help him a little more.

 

[Born_Again]

Case in point, you have one reply. The church believes that we lose our young people because we don't listen to them, because church isn't hip or relevant. Nonsense!! We lose because unbelievers are way more evangelical in their apologetics than we are. So, we have dying churches with no pastors because no one is entering the ministry.

God will take care of this problem. I just wish we would help him a little more.

Yea, Im going to have to uh, sorta disagree with ya there, yeaaaa.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Thanks for the clarity in your answer.

 

[OzSpen]

Case in point, you have one reply. The church believes that we lose our young people because we don't listen to them, because church isn't hip or relevant. Nonsense!! We lose because unbelievers are way more evangelical in their apologetics than we are. So, we have dying churches with no pastors because no one is entering the ministry.

God will take care of this problem. I just wish we would help him a little more.

Perhaps it will take an awakening - caused by youth and young adults moving away from the Christian faith after university encounters - to cause the church to wake up to the fact that equipping the saints for the work of ministry is the primary role of the evangelist, pastor and teacher (Eph 4:11-12 ESV).

Where are the churches that are answering these questions for our youth and others?

• Why is there so much evil in the world? Is that the kind of awful, wicked God you serve who would permit or cause children to be raped, DV against women, murders, terrorism in Syria or New York City?
• What horrible God would create or allow the loss of lives in the Malaysia Airlines M370 disaster?
• What God caused the tsumani havoc in Indonesia in 2004?
• Who made God?
• Why should I trust that book full of mythology - called the Bible?
• What a joke that Jesus rose from the dead? That's the stuff of fantasy.
• Why is God allowing so many kids to become ICE addicts and drug addicts?

When we get serious about answering these questions for youth and others, then we'll know that apologetics is a serious and needed ministry.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I myself am big into apologetics. However, I have spoke with quite a few people who don't really care for it. The biggest reason, that I see, is that they don't fully understand exactly what it is. A lot of Churches now days are more focused on the relationship with Jesus. They don't want to get into the defense of their faith.

BA,

That means those churches are being disobedient to the biblical mandate, 'But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect' (1 Peter 3:15 ESV).

What did Paul do on Mars Hill (the Areopagus) according to Acts 17:22-34? Did he give them a pleasant ditty on friendship with Jesus? Not at all! He built on the common ground relating to their religious views and the inscription, 'To the unknown god'.

Relationship with Jesus can be shattered when Jesus doesn't come to the rescue when my best friend dies of a brain tumour or the university professors challenge the students' views on homosexuality, creation, or what is wrong with our society and how to fix it.

If Paul came to my city, I suspect he could say: 'I see that you are very religious; you worship the God of relativism where anyone chooses what is right for him or her. Let's examine where that view will lead you. It will lead to disaster in Australia because if you allow that drunk to drink as much as he wants, men and women jump into bed with anyone, why should you be up in arms about the paedophile? Your worldview and values all for that to be the logical conclusions of your moral relativism. Do you want a way out of this dilemma. Let me share the absolute solution for you that will be right for all times in all countries. Are you ready for it?'

Are you and I ready for that kind of encounter? I seek to be.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Case in point, you have one reply. The church believes that we lose our young people because we don't listen to them, because church isn't hip or relevant. Nonsense!! We lose because unbelievers are way more evangelical in their apologetics than we are. So, we have dying churches with no pastors because no one is entering the ministry.

God will take care of this problem. I just wish we would help him a little more.

ChJugg,

I consider that an additional problem is caused by leading apologists themselves. Too many of them have foundations in philosophy and when they communicate, there is a danger of becoming philosophically difficult to understand (obtuse).

It's a few years ago now when I was at a meeting of the Christian & Missionary Alliance and Ravi Zacharias was the speaker. I really appreciate Ravi's apologetics' ministry but I found it difficult to keep up with him in his philosophically sophisticated reasoning. And I'm interested in apologetics. I fear that for many people his message zoomed over their heads.

At times I find William Lane Craig in the same category - too philosophically advanced for the average believer.

That's why people like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel have made such impacts in my view. They are simpler to understand. Norman Geisler is still philosophically upbeat, but can simplify the language at times.

The simplest of all defenses of the faith that I have in my library is by Stephen Gaukroger, It Makes Sense (Scripture Union Publishing 1996). It's brief, basic, but very important.

In my preaching and teaching on apologetic subjects, I've tried to keep it simple for the general populace.

Oz

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Oz,

I agree totally with what you just posted.

 

[Born_Again]

My church recently did a sermon series called "When God doesn't make sense." Its speaks to these sort of instances of when tragic things happen or when it seems prayers are not answered. One of the best lines from the sermon that really stuck out to me was "If God always met our expectation, then He would never have a chance to exceed them"

In that instance, Lazarus was referenced. Jesus could have very well healed him. But He had the chance to show HIs true power and perform and even bigger miracle and raised him from the dead. It was a really cool series. I have a link to it if anyone is interested. Just send me a PM.

BA

 

[OzSpen]

My church recently did a sermon series called "When God doesn't make sense." Its speaks to these sort of instances of when tragic things happen or when it seems prayers are not answered. One of the best lines from the sermon that really stuck out to me was "If God always met our expectation, then He would never have a chance to exceed them"

In that instance, Lazarus was referenced. Jesus could have very well healed him. But He had the chance to show HIs true power and perform and even bigger miracle and raised him from the dead. It was a really cool series. I have a link to it if anyone is interested. Just send me a PM.

BA

BA,

I'm pleased that your church is addressing some of these controversial - but needed - issues. What was the response from the congregation?

Did your church develop a response sheet for those who attended to get their feedback and for them to suggest further apologetic topics?

What was the general verbal feedback that you heard?

Oz

 

[Born_Again]

BA,

I'm pleased that your church is addressing some of these controversial - but needed - issues. What was the response from the congregation?

Did your church develop a response sheet for those who attended to get their feedback and for them to suggest further apologetic topics?

What was the general verbal feedback that you heard?

Oz

Im not sure if there was any organized response. But from speaking with other members of the congregation on my own, (general conversation) it was received really well. Our pastor is pretty good about covering these types of issues. He doesn't sugar coat it. He says we often get caught up in "America's version of Christianity" and we softened it up. He likes to tackle these controversial issue. That is one reason I started attending that church. Its "real" about things and about Christianity.

 

[OzSpen]

Im not sure if there was any organized response. But from speaking with other members of the congregation on my own, (general conversation) it was received really well. Our pastor is pretty good about covering these types of issues. He doesn't sugar coat it. He says we often get caught up in "America's version of Christianity" and we softened it up. He likes to tackle these controversial issue. That is one reason I started attending that church. Its "real" about things and about Christianity.

Sounds good, BA.

Last night I finished preparing a sermon on James 2:8-9 (NIV) in which I used this as an illustration of how some churches in Australia are engaging with out culture in relation to asylum seekers being offered sanctuary in churches.

See the article by [SIZE=12pt]Adam Gartrell, The Sydney Morning Herald, ‘Churches become potential flashpoint after offering sanctuary to asylum seekers in wake of High Court verdict’, Feb 4, 2016. Then I provide another example of sanctuary resistance by Corrie ten Boom in Holland during World War 2. I preach this message on 21 Feb. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I'm of the view that these are 2 examples of cultural apologetics with a sharp (and controversial) edge. I expect the conservative Presbyterian congregation where I'll preach this message will be uncomfortable with my raising the issue of asylum seekers (whom the Australian govt is sending back to detention on Manus Is. and Nauru - with endorsement from our Supreme Court) but will more than endorse what Corrie ten Boom did. Interesting days in which we live.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Oz[/SIZE]

 

[Born_Again]

Sounds good, BA.

Last night I finished preparing a sermon on James 2:8-9 (NIV) in which I used this as an illustration of how some churches in Australia are engaging with out culture in relation to asylum seekers being offered sanctuary in churches.

See the article by [SIZE=12pt]Adam Gartrell, The Sydney Morning Herald, ‘Churches become potential flashpoint after offering sanctuary to asylum seekers in wake of High Court verdict’, Feb 4, 2016. Then I provide another example of sanctuary resistance by Corrie ten Boom in Holland during World War 2. I preach this message on 21 Feb. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I'm of the view that these are 2 examples of cultural apologetics with a sharp (and controversial) edge. I expect the conservative Presbyterian congregation where I'll preach this message will be uncomfortable with my raising the issue of asylum seekers (whom the Australian govt is sending back to detention on Manus Is. and Nauru - with endorsement from our Supreme Court) but will more than endorse what Corrie ten Boom did. Interesting days in which we live.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Oz[/SIZE]

Oz,

Being formally of the conservative Presbyterian culture, I am curious to see the response that congregation gives you! I am non-denom now. My spiritual hunger outgrew what my previous church was giving me.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Being formally of the conservative Presbyterian culture, I am curious to see the response that congregation gives you! I am non-denom now. My spiritual hunger outgrew what my previous church was giving me.

BA,

I also will be interested in the response as the theme of James 2 is on partiality/discrimination. Where I'll preach this is a super-conservative congregational, only singing old hymns with piano, organ and bass guitar/string bass. It's the 4 hymn service that goes according to the same format every week.

I've written an article about sermons in this kind of environment :It’s a sin to bore God’s people with God’s Word.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

It's strange, because one of a pastor's jobs, is to equip the SAINTS for the work of the ministry, which should definitely include apologetics. Part of that is because most church's see themselves as a field to draw people into, so they be preached to about Jesus, rather than view themselves as a force to go OUT into the community to bring THE GOOD NEWS to those who don't know it. That is the work of the ministry.

 

[Born_Again]

BA,

I also will be interested in the response as the theme of James 2 is on partiality/discrimination. Where I'll preach this is a super-conservative congregational, only singing old hymns with piano, organ and bass guitar/string bass. It's the 4 hymn service that goes according to the same format every week.

I've written an article about sermons in this kind of environment :It’s a sin to bore God’s people with God’s Word.

Oz

Excellent article, Oz.

 

[OzSpen]

Excellent article, Oz.

Thanks, BA.

Which team did you support in the Super Bowl?

Oz

 

[tom55]

I live in a very secular, pluralistic country of Australia.

Unless I preach on a apologetics topic in my preaching as an occasional preacher, apologetics' topics go unnoticed in the church I attend.

My observation of churches in Australia and especially in my region of northern Brisbane suburbs, is that apologetics is seldom mentioned. I have been to Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Baptist, Churches of Christ and Pentecostal churches and none of them has apologetics as a core platform of ministry in this very secular Australia. Why is this?

What is it like in your part of the world? I can't remember the seminar on apologetics that I saw advertised in any local church.

I'm interested in hearing how it plays out in your part of the world, and especially if you live in a secularised country like my own.

Oz

You say you have been to Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Baptist, Churches of Christ and Pentecostal churches. Which one did you finally settle on? On this forum you say you are an orthodox, evangelical Christian. On another forum you say you are a Baptist. Maybe your a Berean or Arminian? <_<

To answer your question. Apologetics where I live seem to only be talked about at special conferences for apologetics. Otherwise each church just preaches whatever they feel like is the truth to them personally.

 

[OzSpen]

You say you have been to Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Baptist, Churches of Christ and Pentecostal churches. Which one did you finally settle on? On this forum you say you are an orthodox, evangelical Christian. On another forum you say you are a Baptist. Maybe your a Berean or Arminian? <_<

To answer your question. Apologetics where I live seem to only be talked about at special conferences for apologetics. Otherwise each church just preaches whatever they feel like is the truth to them personally.

Tom,

When I joined that other forum in 2005, I was attending a Baptist church. I'm ordained with the Christian & Missionary Alliance, which is a Baptistic denomination.

I currently attend an evangelical Presbyterian church, which has the best teaching (expository preaching) in my region, but I participate in and sometimes lead a Wesleyan Methodist Bible study. I attend that study this morning.

I am a Berean (Acts 17:11) and a convinced Reformed/Classical Arminian - I actually do read the works of James Arminius and his expositions of Scripture, which are too often not used by some contemporary Arminians.

As for apologetic subjects in evangelical churches, that's in my wish list.

Oz