Apologetics vs Honor

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Webers_Home

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It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you
a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average
Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of
forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the
defensive Christian waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly
concealing the unspeakable truth that they too have sometimes entertained
the very same opinions.

I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So;
if perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?


Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He
wants to hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly
what He knows already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or
tiresome rhetoric, no, it had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better
be honest.
_
 
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Curtis

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When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average
Christian typically circles the wagons,

Except God’s actions are never any of those - so I would never agree with the skeptic - and setting them straight is called apologetics, not circling the wagons.

Your post sounds a lot like you agree with the skeptics.
 

Webers_Home

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Your post sounds a lot like you agree with the skeptics.

There are occasions when I prefer to sympathize with skeptics rather than
argue with them seeing as how I and they have many opinions in common;
for example:

GOD: Should I have stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD: Was there ever a time when you resented My control over your life?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD: Are you dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of Fire?

MY RESPONSE: Yes; both.

GOD: Was there ever a time when you felt that some of My actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD: Was there ever a time when you wished I didn't exist?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

The Bible urges Christ's followers to come before the throne of grace
with boldness. (Heb 4:15-16). The Greek word for boldness is parrhesia
(par-rhay-see' ah) which means all out-spokenness, i.e. frankness,
bluntness, and/or candor.

For many years I suppressed my deepest thoughts and feelings about God,
and about Jesus too, because those thoughts and feelings were just too
unholy to out. Thus I kept a certain amount of my innermost being secret
from God. Well; in time I came to a realization that keeping secrets from
God is not only stressful, but also quite futile.

Transparency is a popular buzz word that roughly means free from pretense
or deceit. When I see a Christian go ballistic with an apologetic, I know
they're hiding something, and terrified that somebody will come along and
figure it out.
_
 

Curtis

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There are occasions when I prefer to sympathize with skeptics rather than
argue with them seeing as how I and they have many opinions in common;
for example:

GOD: Should I have stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD: Was there ever a time when you resented My control over your life?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD: Are you dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of Fire?

MY RESPONSE: Yes; both.

GOD: Was there ever a time when you felt that some of My actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD: Was there ever a time when you wished I didn't exist?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

The Bible urges Christ's followers to come before the throne of grace
with boldness. (Heb 4:15-16). The Greek word for boldness is parrhesia
(par-rhay-see' ah) which means all out-spokenness, i.e. frankness,
bluntness, and/or candor.

For many years I suppressed my deepest thoughts and feelings about God,
and about Jesus too, because those thoughts and feelings were just too
unholy to out. Thus I kept a certain amount of my innermost being secret
from God. Well; in time I came to a realization that keeping secrets from
God is not only stressful, but also quite futile.

Transparency is a popular buzz word that roughly means free from pretense
or deceit. When I see a Christian go ballistic with an apologetic, I know
they're hiding something, and terrified that somebody will come along and
figure it out.
_

Paul warned us to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Scripture says to trust in the lord with all our heart, and lean not on our own understanding.

Such as - in my limited understanding I can’t see why God let Adam and Eve fall, therefore God made a mistake, and erred.

Instead of asking the Holy Spirit who guides us to the truth, to show us why from scripture that God did certain things we don’t easily understand.

When we trust in the Lord and don’t insist on our own understanding before we accept certain events in scripture, we trust that God is fair and just and leave it in His hands, while we seek to find the answer in scripture through the Holy Spirit.
 
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Webers_Home

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Paul warned us to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith. I can see
why. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Scripture says to trust in the lord, and lean not on
our own understanding.

Just as a reminder before we get too far afield; I didn't set this thread up for
posting apologetics, rather, a thread for discussing apologetics in relation to
honesty.

And besides: explaining the Bible's mysteries by quoting a biblical defense of
the Bible's mysteries is inadmissible. It's like releasing a defendant on the
basis of him saying he didn't do it.
_
 

Curtis

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Just as a reminder before we get too far afield; I didn't set this thread up for
posting apologetics, rather, a thread for discussing apologetics in relation to
honesty.

And besides: explaining the Bible's mysteries by quoting a biblical defense of
the Bible's mysteries is inadmissible. It's like releasing a defendant on the
basis of him saying he didn't do it.
_

If I’m allowed to discus apologetics in an apologetics forum, I’d like to respond that there are no mysteries in scripture concerning why God currently allows evil in the world, and why man was allowed to fall in Eden - for two examples mentioned in the OP - there are answers but they didn’t get solved in five minutes...

As to being “honest” and telling a skeptic that there’s no explanation why God allows evil if He’s powerful enough to stop it, etc, and let him walk away with snug assurance they can destroy the concept of a gods existence with just one question, it’s better to be able to explain why, wouldn’t you agree?
 

Webers_Home

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If I’m allowed to discus apologetics in an apologetics forum

Except that you have not been discussing apologetics, instead, you've been
composing them.

Instead of attacking my honest responses to God's questions, how about you
share your own honest answers to the questions I listed in post No.3

Don't be afraid to be transparent. God respects the truth, but despises
deceit.
_
 

Webers_Home

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FAQ: Why would God ask any of these questions?

A: There are many things that God knows about people that He doesn't have
to ask. However, there are times when knowing alone doesn't satisfy Him.

For example: God already knew in advance whether Abraham would go thru
with sacrificing his son Isaac. But knowing is different than actually watching
a current event in real time, as an on-scene eye witness.

In other words: what God knows in His head is very different than what He's
seen for himself. Same thing applies to Sodom and Gomorrah, It wasn't
necessary for God to come down out of Heaven and visit the city for Himself
to know that it was a deplorable community, but He did anyway because He
wanted to see for Himself up close and personal as an eye witness. Same
goes for the Tower of Babel.

And Christ most likely knew in advance Peter's innermost thoughts when
asked how he felt about Jesus (John 21:15-17). But the Lord wasn't satisfied
till Peter came out with his feelings one on one, face to face, man to man.

Speaking for myself: I look forward to a sit down with God with about as
much pleasure as I look forward to a root canal; and like a root canal; I will
be very glad when it's over because I suspect that the grilling we're all
facing won't be pleasant.

There are many questions in life that we can brush off as too personal or "I
don't know" but God can't be brushed off. If we try, He will only dig in His
heels and force the issue till we finally break.
_
 

Desire Of All Nations

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There is no such thing as a rational skeptic. In fact, the term is oxymoronic, because skeptics do not think rationally. A rational person hears the other side of an argument, understand where that person is coming from/look at the evidence, and then at least considers the possibility that their own position might be wrong and needs to be adjusted. Skeptics are too prideful to ever be rational because they believe their own false narratives and opinions of God should automatically be accepted as truth, and they certainly don't believe that their beliefs need to be adjusted.

It would be quite silly for an omniscient God to ask somebody whether or not there was a point where they wished He didn't exist, considering the apostle Paul was inspired by that God to write in Rom. 8:7 that the carnal nature in every human being desires to live like He didn't exist. And before a person truly converts to Christianity, they might have obviously believed God did something that was too harsh or unfair at some point since Satan broadcasts his own hostility towards God through human beings(Eph. 2:2-3).

God requires Christians to keep His laws, statues, and judgements so they can see things in this world as He does and the justice of His actions(Deut. 4:6-8, Neh. 9:13, Psa. 111:10, Rom. 7:12), but that seems counterintuitive to Romanists who equate obeying His laws to being in bondage(like Satan did and still does). Being a God of justice requires that He punishes people for their refusal to obey His commands. And even when He punishes people, it is still done so they would learn to quit placing their hand on a hot stove.

A lot of people only want to hear about God's love and mercy, but they don't want to hear about His wrath. People who view the incidents where God punishes somebody as Him being evil or unfair simply do not understand the big picture in regards to God's plan for those people, and it loops back to a failure in keeping God's laws the way they are supposed to be kept. If people have a problem with that, they certainly won't like the corrective measures He will employ before and during the Tribulation.
 

Matthias

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It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you
a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

That hasn’t been my experience. I may or may not agree with their answers but I haven’t had any difficulty at all finding Christians who are both willing and able to give direct answers to direct questions posed to them about their beliefs and practices.

A Christian lacking integrity is a very weak Christian, if truly a Christian at all. And you have a ”very difficult time” finding any that have integrity?