Apostle Paul Showed The Rapture Happens With The Future Resurrection

[Davy]

we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

First thing to do is look at that KJV word "prevent" in the Greek, because it's not the word 'prevent', but in the Greek means 'precede'. I don't know why the KJV translators brought that into English as "prevent"...

NT:5348
phthano (fthan'-o); apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:
KJV - (already) attain, come, prevent.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Paul is simply saying with that, that we who remain and are still alive shall not 'precede' the asleep saints that are already there with Jesus (per 2 Cor.5, remember?).

I get you will disagree. But to me the following 1 Corinthians 11:26-34 discerning of the Lord’s body; speaks of not preventing those weak and sickly among you from eating that they may be strengthened in Christ…but instead those hungry and thirsty are pushed out of the way and there are those who eat unto drunkenness and those who go away from the Lords table hungry. “You do show the Lord’d death until He comes”? No? Many there are among you who are weak and sickly and do sleep. He told the Pharisees not only do they not enter but the prevent others trying to “awake, awake, wake up unto righteousness and the Lord will give you Light” but instead they feared, “all will believe on this Son of God -and it will take away our positions and status as high men!” There is still a “not discerning the Lord’s body today” saying “we have Jesus” “come and see” but wait for the response… “did you actually think I cared about you state or well being? Well I don’t.” Yet those strong ought not prevent those who weak, but instead the strong ought to support the weak. Or those that have fallen asleep. Romans 13:11-12 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. [12] The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.

Yeah, you're right, I cannot agree with all your 'personal' correlations you're trying to make in the above.

It's like your thoughts are all over the place because you are trying to tie simple words together from different Scriptures. We must always remain within the 'context' of the verse's subject regardless, and you really are not doing that.

The 1 Corinthians 11:26-34 Scripture is about those who were treating Communion with Christ like a Church social dinner. They were keeping it in an 'unworthily' manner. Instead, we are to 'examine' ourselves when keeping it, like Paul said there. It's supposed to be an event when we judge ourselves, i.e., work out things with Jesus in communion with Him, and especially for remembering what He did for us on His cross. This is why the Christian Church represents that with a Communion service in quietness, and in a respective manner. To treat it like a Church social dinner is not how to treat Communion with Christ Jesus.

So I fail to grasp how you are trying to relate that to what Jesus said to the Pharisees, just because of that word "prevent", which actually isn't even in the Greek of 1 Thess.4:15 anyway.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

First thing to do is look at that KJV word "prevent" in the Greek, because it's not the word 'prevent', but in the Greek means 'precede'. I don't know why the KJV translators brought that into English as "prevent"...

First, I get we won’t agree because to you His coming in the clouds has to a hundred percent be literal clouds? Correct? Or did I misunderstand? If it’s a rapture up into literal clouds at His coming, then everything in scripture has to support that. Even the: we who are alive and remain until His coming will not “prevent”, or will not “precede”, or will not “go before” those who have fallen asleep.

You said “those who are alive and remain in Him” and “those who have fallen asleep in Him” has nothing at all to do with their “not discerning the Lord’s body” spoken of. “this is My body broken for you.” “Do this in remembrance of me until I come”

Defining Prevent which you said isn’t in the text. But instead it is “will not precede” them who are asleep. another good word for “to not precede” is “to not go before them” who have fallen asleep.

The passage on those not discerning the Lords body speaks of the definition (Imo) that you are trying to get after …but it defines it as those who “precede” to take their own supper ..or…to go on ahead of those who sleep, who are sickly and weak …going before and ahead of them to take their own supper.
Define we will not “precede” those who sleep? Or we will not go ahead of those who sleep …as those who have no hope. Those who have no Hope will almost always take their own supper before those who have fallen asleep?

1 Corinthians 11:21-23 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [22] What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. [23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: …not to leave out the rest for we know the rest of what He did.

Concerning sleep …to make clouds be literal…sleep also has to be given a definition that supports it. Yet 1 Thessalonians 5:4-8 defines “sleep”
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. [8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
^that they that be drunken are drunken in the night. When he speaks of the Lords table and one goes away drunk and another hungry. I’ve heard it said they were drinking too much alcohol. But to be made “drunk” elsewhere in scripture is defined as stumbling around in the darkness not even knowing what they stumble over.

To me …as much as you may say it’s hogwash. (I’m expecting it)
A good example of ”to precede those who sleep” or “to go ahead of those who sleep” or it even fits “to prevent those who sleep” is Corinthians 11:21-23 For in eating every one taketh before (precedes) other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [22] What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

And 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.



Not discerning the Lords body: those who are alive and left until His coming and those who have fallen asleep. Those who have fallen asleep go first? For those strong and with Hope ought to support those without it. “or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?”

The 1 Corinthians 11:26-34 Scripture is about those who were treating Communion with Christ like a Church social dinner. They were keeping it in an 'unworthily' manner. Instead, we are to 'examine' ourselves when keeping it, like Paul said there. It's supposed to be an event when we judge ourselves, i.e., work out things with Jesus in communion with Him, and especially for remembering what He did for us on His cross. This is why the Christian Church represents that with a Communion service in quietness, and in a respective manner. To treat it like a Church social dinner is not how to treat Communion with Christ Jesus.

So I fail to grasp how you are trying to relate that to what Jesus said to the Pharisees, just because of that word "prevent", which actually isn't even in the Greek of 1 Thess.4:15 anyway.

 

[Davy]

First, I get we won’t agree because to you His coming in the clouds has to a hundred percent be literal clouds? Correct? Or did I misunderstand?

Of course Jesus is coming back "in like manner" which He ascended, being taken up IN A CLOUD into Heaven, as written in Acts 1. Why wouldn't you believe that He ascended literally in a 'cloud' while His Apostles were seeing it, as written in Acts 1? Who suggested to you that was false??

Ya know, Origen of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt got excommunicated because of his trying to make an allegory out of many literal things written in God's Word. I will warn you against doing what he did with God's Word.

If it’s a rapture up into literal clouds at His coming, then everything in scripture has to support that. Even the: we who are alive and remain until His coming will not “prevent”, or will not “precede”, or will not “go before” those who have fallen asleep.

There are many Bible verses that declare Jesus comes in a cloud. So I'm not going to waste my time debating that with you.

And I already told.. you, that word "prevent" in the 1 Thess.4:15 verse does not exist in the Greek New Testament! Are you hard of hearing, or what?

All that Paul is saying is that those of us still alive on earth shall not precede the asleep saints which have already died in Christ, and are with Jesus now. Don't you recall what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5 that to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord?

You said “those who are alive and remain in Him” and “those who have fallen asleep in Him” has nothing at all to do with their “not discerning the Lord’s body” spoken of. “this is My body broken for you.” “Do this in remembrance of me until I come”

That's right, the 1 Thess.4 subject about the events of Christ's coming to gather His Church is NOT the same subject as the 1 Cor.11 subject of taking The Lord's Supper. So quit TRYING to make something out it, because the devil will... speak through you IF... you allow him.

Sorry, but your mind is all over the place, so I cannot keep a conversation with you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Of course Jesus is coming back "in like manner" which He ascended, being taken up IN A CLOUD into Heaven, as written in Acts 1. Why wouldn't you believe that He ascended literally in a 'cloud' while His Apostles were seeing it, as written in Acts 1? Who suggested to you that was false??

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lord comes upon and in a Great cloud of Witnesses seems real to me.

 

[Davy]

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lord comes upon and in a Great cloud of Witnesses seems real to me.

There was NO 'cloud of witnesses' in the literal "cloud" that took Jesus up into Heaven per Acts 1.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There was NO 'cloud of witnesses' in the literal "cloud" that took Jesus up into Heaven per Acts 1.

If you are correct then He will literally return in a cloud …serious question. do you also believe He will have a literal sickle in His hand? Revelation 14:14-16 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

If it’s not a literal cloud …then your hundred percent confidence in the prophecy of His return on literal clouds …will prove to be false prophecy.
Either way you wont loose. Either you will find out you are correct. Or find out you are wrong.

 

[Davy]

If you are correct then He will literally return in a cloud …serious question. do you also believe He will have a literal sickle in His hand? Revelation 14:14-16 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

If it’s not a literal cloud …then your hundred percent confidence in the prophecy of His return on literal clouds …will prove to be false prophecy.
Either way you wont loose. Either you will find out you are correct. Or find out you are wrong.

Why have you come here on CHRISTIAN FORUM to deceive the brethren with your false commotions and false claims?


You are not... arguing against ME! You are arguing against GOD in HIS WRITTEN WORD! NOTE what HE said, I didn't write it...

Acts 1:9-12
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

Who are you really, then? No true Christian would deny what is written above about that CLOUD receiving Jesus up into Heaven!

And no true Christian would try... and claim anyone pointing that ACTS 1 Scripture out to you is lying about it, you white-washed wall deceiver!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why have you come here on CHRISTIAN FORUM to deceive the brethren with your false commotions and false claims?


You are not... arguing against ME! You are arguing against GOD in HIS WRITTEN WORD! NOTE what HE said, I didn't write it...

Acts 1:9-12
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

Who are you really, then? No true Christian would deny what is written above about that CLOUD receiving Jesus up into Heaven!

And no true Christian would try... and claim anyone pointing that ACTS 1 Scripture out to you is lying about it, you white-washed wall deceiver!

One I’m not arguing with what is written. But I have to at least acknowledge there are countless interpretations and debates over what is written. And every person will tell you their interpretation is correct.

The way I see it (maybe I’m wrong) but you are saying His coming in the clouds is a literal occurrence (you never touched on with a sickle or not). A prophecy you teach is still to come. Meaning it has not yet happened but it will come to pass with a certainty. My understanding is the difference between false prophecy and true prophecy…the difference between true prophets and false prophets … true prophecy comes to pass and is no lie. So I don’t see any point in calling me names when you are the one speaking true prophecy and the right one here. Since I’m the liar, I’m the bitter one? .“White washed deceiver” who did you get that from?

 

[Davy]

One I’m not arguing with what is written.

YES YOU ARE ARGUING AGAINST THE 'WRITTEN' BIBLE SCRIPTURE! Acts 1 was written by The Holy Spirit through Christ's Apostles. Thus it is from God's Own Word.

Just because you may not believe Jesus ascended up into Heaven upon a literal cloud does not mean it didn't happen, and that regardless of how many commentaries you read that puts you in a state of confusion!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

YES YOU ARE ARGUING AGAINST THE 'WRITTEN' BIBLE SCRIPTURE! Acts 1 was written by The Holy Spirit through Christ's Apostles. Thus it is from God's Own Word.

Just because you may not believe Jesus ascended up into Heaven upon a literal cloud does not mean it didn't happen, and that regardless of how many commentaries you read that puts you in a state of confusion!

Davy, just because I may disagree with you, that does not automatically mean I disagree with what is written. Although you may claim that to be the case.

I’m sure there are others that have different perspectives concerning the rapture and His coming in the clouds. Even concerning the rapture there are varied interpretations. I know you keep saying “read what is written”. I do. Same as “you must eat My flesh and drink My blood” and “you must be born again” …I also don’t think it’s a sin for me to consider “He will return the same way He left”.

You say (paraphrasing) “duh, He left in the clouds, you white washed liar.” I’ll say it again. disagreeing with you doesn’t automatically mean that I disagree with what is written. It may mean I question your interpretation or maybe even doubt it. Same as I would doubt it if someone told me Jesus Christ promoted cannibalism. That doesn’t mean I doubt what is written when He said “you must eat My flesh and drink My blood.”

But it’s your thread. I was only commenting which was a mistake from the start. I’ll drop out now so continue on. No hard feelings.

 

[Davy]

Davy, just because I may disagree with you, that does not automatically mean I disagree with what is written. Although you may claim that to be the case.

There's a huge difference between disagreement with written Bible Scripture, and my own opinion. When I declare Bible Scripture 'as written', that is not my opinion. So I would recommend you learn this difference so you don't get caught denying the actual written Bible Scripture like you HAVE done with denying that Jesus ascended upon a "cloud", as written...

Acts 1:9
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
KJV

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There's a huge difference between disagreement with written Bible Scripture, and my own opinion. When I declare Bible Scripture 'as written', that is not my opinion. So I would recommend you learn this difference so you don't get caught denying the actual written Bible Scripture like you HAVE done with denying that Jesus ascended upon a "cloud", as written...

Acts 1:9
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
KJV

You said “there is a huge difference between disagreement with the written Bible scripture, and my own opinion.” you said “I declare what is written.”

I’ve given you the best example I can give which is: if someone had a strong opinion Jesus Christ promoted Cannibalism they could use “you must eat My flesh and drink My blood” as “see there?” ‘It is written’ asking me if I want to dispute what is written? I would have a hard time with their insistence… where to them …it appears obvious the eating of ones flesh and drinking ones blood is cannibalism. They keep pointing at it! Saying “read it! What does that say to you?” You may say no one would make such claims but they do all the time. Maybe they have a bone to pick with God and just want to discredit Him or maybe they want to justify their own habits. If someone was claiming such a thing…cannibalism. And how it is written Jesus supports it. I think you would be in agreement with me telling them that although ‘it is written’ concerning eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood that they are refusing to see it is not about cannibalism that He teaches.

You may say “what’s that have to do with a cloud?” A lot actually. Please take time to at least consider further “a cloud”. Consider what happens in diminishing to make it any ol’ cloud:

Strong's Greek: 3507. νεφέλη (nephelé) -- a cloud
‘of that cloud in which Jehovah is said (Exodus 13:21f, etc.) to have gone before the Israelites on their march through the wilderness, and which Paul represents as spread over them’

1 Corinthians 10:1 Interlinear: And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

The other day on the topic of sleep Romans 11:8 came to mind:
(According as it is written, God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

I get this was concerning Israel. But also one reason this topic matters to me is because I do find comfort in
1 Thessalonians 4:12-13 That you may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that you may have lack of nothing. [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Do you know anyone given the spirit of slumber? Eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear? Where He says “sorrow not, even as others which have no hope?”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

There's a huge difference between disagreement with written Bible Scripture, and my own opinion. When I declare Bible Scripture 'as written', that is not my opinion. So I would recommend you learn this difference so you don't get caught denying the actual written Bible Scripture like you HAVE done with denying that Jesus ascended upon a "cloud", as written...

Acts 1:9
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
KJV

More reason for why I don’t think (Imo) a cloud is just ‘a cloud‘.
Lamentations 3:40-46 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD. [41] Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens. [42] We have transgressed and have rebelled: You have not pardoned. [43] You have covered with anger, and persecuted us: you have slain, you have not pitied. [44] You have covered yourself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through. [45] You made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people. [46] All our enemies have opened their mouths against us.


puffy white ‘bright’ clouds, nor dark stormy literal clouds up in the sky do not make it so that ‘our prayer should not pass through’ …to me it’s significant that the cloud “the covering”
Where men should not pass through …entering therein…received Christ. And now as in the verse of His passing into the heavens, received into a cloud, taken up unto heaven …Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens (Acts 1:9-11), Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Where did “a cloud” go that covered God so our prayers could not pass through? Instead it is “come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

where did ‘the cloud’ go ‘that hinders’ our prayers? 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, you husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
did “a cloud” reappear …’to hinder’ as in ‘We have transgressed and have rebelled: You have not pardoned. You have covered with anger, and persecuted us: you have slain, you have not pitied. You have covered yourself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.’ Why?

 

[Davy]

More reason for why I don’t think (Imo) a cloud is just ‘a cloud‘.
Lamentations 3:40-46 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD. [41] Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens. [42] We have transgressed and have rebelled: You have not pardoned. [43] You have covered with anger, and persecuted us: you have slain, you have not pitied. [44] You have covered yourself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through. [45] You made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people. [46] All our enemies have opened their mouths against us.


puffy white ‘bright’ clouds, nor dark stormy literal clouds up in the sky do not make it so that ‘our prayer should not pass through’ …to me it’s significant that the cloud “the covering”
Where men should not pass through …entering therein…received Christ. And now as in the verse of His passing into the heavens, received into a cloud, taken up unto heaven …Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens (Acts 1:9-11), Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Where did “a cloud” go that covered God so our prayers could not pass through? Instead it is “come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

where did ‘the cloud’ go ‘that hinders’ our prayers? 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, you husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
did “a cloud” reappear …’to hinder’ as in ‘We have transgressed and have rebelled: You have not pardoned. You have covered with anger, and persecuted us: you have slain, you have not pitied. You have covered yourself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.’ Why?

Matt 23:24
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
KJV

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Matt 23:24
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
KJV

Do you really think quoting it and bolding it in red makes you Jesus? Wake up Davy. Your throwing that verse at me does nothing. It’s stealing His words and using them as your own; a pile of poo to throw at someones face (like a child) to save your own face. Get over yourself.

 

[Davy]

Beware of the false Jews, brethren in Christ, they are not true Jews. They represent the "synagogue of Satan" that Jesus said they say they are Jews, but are not (Rev.2:9, Rev.3:9).

Here also is something Jesus said to them, to mark them, other than the fact that they don't actually believe His written Word...

John 5:43-47
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe My words?
KJV

 

[rebuilder 454]

There's a huge difference between disagreement with written Bible Scripture, and my own opinion. When I declare Bible Scripture 'as written', that is not my opinion. So I would recommend you learn this difference so you don't get caught denying the actual written Bible Scripture like you HAVE done with denying that Jesus ascended upon a "cloud", as written...

Acts 1:9
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
KJV

clouds obscure anything going up.
That is all that is there.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

clouds obscure anything going up.
That is all that is there.

Personally I love what you shared concerning “clouds obscure anything going up”
But I wouldn’t agree “that is all that is there”

“clouds obscure anything going up” to me I find hope in when Jesus spoke of His going to the Father and returning; instructing “pray to the Father” and “He will hear and give unto you what is asked”. Gives me hope in prayers not being obscured from before God, but vials of sweet odor, prayers ascending up before Him.

 

[Davy]

Now, back to the original subject of this Thread, Apostle Paul showed the event of Christ's coming to gather His Church, is the SAME gathering events that Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse.

When we put both Paul's example of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 together with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, we discover the TIMING of that gathering of the Church is pointed to in BOTH Scripture examples.

Jesus said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." (Matthew 24:29).

And Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 said, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."


That puts the time of Christ's future return, the future resurrection, and gathering of His Church, at the very end of this world, after the coming "great tribulation".

The John 6:40 Scripture reveals when that will happen at the 'end' of this world with...

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

Can't get any more simple than that.