Apparitions of the Virgin Mary
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YeshuaFan1
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 11 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,
How would he know Mary from Satan? An atheist? Oh my!
So the losers, Saul, the rich man in Hell and an atheist, children of Satan are your proof?
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Well of course not. And if by 'worship' you mean 'latria' neither should they..
We do not offer Mary or any other creature sacrifice.
If you wish to know to Whom it is we offer sacrifice, come to Mass and hear!
Peace be with you!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
No, she's Jewish. Mary is the Mother of All Christians because she is the Daughter of Zion. Scripture personifies God's people as "woman", that's why there is no such thing as "son of Zion".
In what is among the most simple and beautiful prayers in the Torah, Moses fervently prays for God to dwell “in the midst of” his people. It is a seemingly praiseworthy request, and yet God’s answer is a firm “no.” God’s refusal was not because of any lack of desire on his part; God’s will was always to dwell in the midst of his people. The problem was Israel’s sins.
Exodus 33:3
Exodus 33:5
God says he could have dwelt among them—but he would have destroyed them if he had! And yet in spite of the dire warnings, Moses entreats the Lord anyway, in Exodus 34:9.
When I said Moses’ petition would not be granted, that was true, but incomplete. It would be more correct to say it would not be granted in his lifetime, or even in the context of the Mosaic Covenant. Because of the sins of Israel, God would only dwell in the Ark of the Covenant made of wood and gold, in the tabernacle in the wilderness, or later on in the temple. However, the God-inspired longing of Moses’ heart would one day be realized. Multiple prophets subsequent to the time of Moses prophesied God would indeed one day dwell in the midst of his people. But this ancient promise would only find its fulfillment in Jesus Christ… AND in his mother. BOTH/AND, NOT "EITHER/OR".
Both/and is the Hebraic approach to Scripture.
Either/or is the Calvinist approach to Scripture.(CARM)
You’ll want to take note of how many times the inspired author prophesies of that day, which refers to the coming of the Messiah and the New Covenant.
Isaiah 11:1-2
Isaiah 11:10-11
Isaiah 2:1
Isaiah 2:6
The promise of the Lord dwelling in the midst of Israel was just that—a promise for the future.
Isaiah 37:22
Jeremiah 14:17
Lamentations 2:13
In Zephaniah, we find similar language. The Lord chastises Israel resoundingly for its sins, but then promises through the message of the prophet:
Zephaniah 3:8
Zephaniah 11:13-15
And finally, after urging Israel to repent of their sins, Zechariah also prophesies: Zechariah 2:10
We now fast-forward to Luke 1:28. When Luke records the greeting of the angel, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” There are two keys to understanding this text in relation to Mary as the fulfillment of the ancient “daughter of Zion” prophecies.
- The Greek word for hail is kaire, which can also be translated rejoice. In fact, the New King James Version of the Bible translates it as, “Rejoice, highly favored one!” Because this “new name”—kecharitomene—is in the feminine, we could also translate it as “Rejoice, favored woman.”
- The angel does not say “the Lord shall be with you;” he says, “The Lord is with you.”
Indeed, this verse becomes an excellent example of what Scripture scholars refer to as the polyvalent or multi-layered nature of Scripture. The angel’s greeting not only signals that Mary is “full of grace,” but that she is the true “Daughter of Zion.”
On one level, since she was “full of grace” Mary was the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the Daughter of Zion even before the Incarnation. And yet, there was more to come. Mary’s fullness of grace had prepared the New Covenant Daughter of Zion for something the Old Covenant people of God could never have fathomed. It was grace that made her fit to be a worthy vessel to bear the King of Glory in her body. The fulfillment of God’s promise would not be complete, then, until Mary conceived Jesus in her womb.
And we should further note that in Isaiah and elsewhere, “the inhabitant of Zion” is also referred to as “the daughter of Zion,” or even “the virgin daughter of Zion.” For example, in Isaiah 37:22, Isaiah prophesies against Assyria, who had conquered Israel: Luke 1:28-35
I suppose an entire volume could be written on the significance of these prophecies. But I will conclude our thoughts here with succinct teaching on the significance of Mary as Daughter of Zion, in whom God promised he would dwell.
The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty.
Conclusion: Mary is Catholic in the sense of her universal motherhood AND Jewish in the sense of Daughter of Zion. both/and, not either/or. Jesus is our Brother, that logically makes Mary Our Mother, unless you wish to argue that Christians are not adopted sons and daughters of God.
Revelation 12:17 explains who "the seed of the woman" or offspring of the women are... those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. (universal motherhood) It doesn't mention anything about belonging only to the Catholic Church. Logically, the seed of the woman are all Christians who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
The woman is
(1) Mary,
(2) the Church
(3) and Israel (Zion)
the polyvalent or multi-layered nature of Scripture.
Last edited:
YeshuaFan1
Active Member
That passage refers to Israel in the last days, Mary worship is idolatry!No, she's Jewish. Mary is the Mother of All Christians because she is the Daughter of Zion. Scripture personifies God's people as "woman", that's why there is no such thing as "son of Zion".
In what is among the most simple and beautiful prayers in the Torah, Moses fervently prays for God to dwell “in the midst of” his people. It is a seemingly praiseworthy request, and yet God’s answer is a firm “no.” God’s refusal was not because of any lack of desire on his part; God’s will was always to dwell in the midst of his people. The problem was Israel’s sins.
Exodus 33:3
Exodus 33:5
God says he could have dwelt among them—but he would have destroyed them if he had! And yet in spite of the dire warnings, Moses entreats the Lord anyway, in Exodus 34:9.
When I said Moses’ petition would not be granted, that was true, but incomplete. It would be more correct to say it would not be granted in his lifetime, or even in the context of the Mosaic Covenant. Because of the sins of Israel, God would only dwell in the Ark of the Covenant made of wood and gold, in the tabernacle in the wilderness, or later on in the temple. However, the God-inspired longing of Moses’ heart would one day be realized. Multiple prophets subsequent to the time of Moses prophesied God would indeed one day dwell in the midst of his people. But this ancient promise would only find its fulfillment in Jesus Christ… AND in his mother. BOTH/AND, NOT "EITHER/OR".
Both/and is the Hebraic approach to Scripture.
Either/or is the Calvinist approach to Scripture.(CARM)
You’ll want to take note of how many times the inspired author prophesies of that day, which refers to the coming of the Messiah and the New Covenant.
Isaiah 11:1-2
Isaiah 11:10-11
Isaiah 2:1
Isaiah 2:6
The promise of the Lord dwelling in the midst of Israel was just that—a promise for the future.
Isaiah 37:22
Jeremiah 14:17
Lamentations 2:13
In Zephaniah, we find similar language. The Lord chastises Israel resoundingly for its sins, but then promises through the message of the prophet:
Zephaniah 3:8
Zephaniah 11:13-15
And finally, after urging Israel to repent of their sins, Zechariah also prophesies: Zechariah 2:10
We now fast-forward to Luke 1:28. When Luke records the greeting of the angel, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” There are two keys to understanding this text in relation to Mary as the fulfillment of the ancient “daughter of Zion” prophecies.
- The Greek word for hail is kaire, which can also be translated rejoice. In fact, the New King James Version of the Bible translates it as, “Rejoice, highly favored one!” Because this “new name”—kecharitomene—is in the feminine, we could also translate it as “Rejoice, favored woman.”
Could this hearken back to the prophetic “daughter of Zion” prophecies of old? There is really no biblical way around it. The ancient prayer of Moses was definitively answered in and through what was likely to have been about a fifteen year-old young woman named Mary, and in a way beyond the wildest imaginings of the ancient prophets. Because of her “yes,” after all of those centuries in waiting, God would finally dwell “in the midst of his virgin Daughter of Zion.” There is really no biblical way around it.
- The angel does not say “the Lord shall be with you;” he says, “The Lord is with you.”
Indeed, this verse becomes an excellent example of what Scripture scholars refer to as the polyvalent or multi-layered nature of Scripture. The angel’s greeting not only signals that Mary is “full of grace,” but that she is the true “Daughter of Zion.”
On one level, since she was “full of grace” Mary was the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the Daughter of Zion even before the Incarnation. And yet, there was more to come. Mary’s fullness of grace had prepared the New Covenant Daughter of Zion for something the Old Covenant people of God could never have fathomed. It was grace that made her fit to be a worthy vessel to bear the King of Glory in her body. The fulfillment of God’s promise would not be complete, then, until Mary conceived Jesus in her womb.
And we should further note that in Isaiah and elsewhere, “the inhabitant of Zion” is also referred to as “the daughter of Zion,” or even “the virgin daughter of Zion.” For example, in Isaiah 37:22, Isaiah prophesies against Assyria, who had conquered Israel: Luke 1:28-35
I suppose an entire volume could be written on the significance of these prophecies. But I will conclude our thoughts here with succinct teaching on the significance of Mary as Daughter of Zion, in whom God promised he would dwell.
The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty.
Conclusion: Mary is Catholic in the sense of her universal motherhood AND Jewish in the sense of Daughter of Zion. both/and, not either/or. Jesus is our Brother, that logically makes Mary Our Mother, unless you wish to argue that Christians are not adopted sons and daughters of God.
Revelation 12:17 explains who "the seed of the woman" or offspring of the women are... those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. (universal motherhood) It doesn't mention anything about belonging only to the Catholic Church. Logically, the seed of the woman are all Christians who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
The woman is
(1) Mary,
(2) the Church
(3) and Israel (Zion)
the polyvalent or multi-layered nature of Scripture.
Marymog
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I already gave you "my thoughts". What you are saying makes zero sense to me. Neither Scripture or the 2,000 year teaching of Christianity agrees with what you have written.
From whom did you learn this?
Mary
Marymog
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You are right. If anyone worships (treats her as a deity) Mary that is idolatry. That is what The Catholic Church believes/teaches also. You agree with The Church. Are you Catholic?
YeshuaFan1
Active Member
Reformed baptist, and MANY Catholics do actually worship and pray unto her like she is a goddess!
Marymog
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Marymog
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YeshuaFan1
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Romans 5
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Do you see another way to deal with sin?
Much love!
Marymog
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Thanks for joining the convo. So YOU know how to properly interpret His words (Scripture)?
Mary
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