Are Christians sinners?

[Episkopos]

How is it you do not take God at His Word? 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Are you born of God? John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If whether I am a sinner (unrighteous) or I am righteous, has ANYTHING to do with my works (my deeds in the flesh), then what Jesus did on the cross is useless. No no no, it is as simple as taking God at His Word. Believe! Brothers/Sisters, you can no longer call yourself a sinner, if indeed you abide in Christ. (1 John 3:5-6) Do you abide in Him? Yes? Then you cannot call yourself a sinner. You are not a sinner. God said it.

(Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This is offensive! This is the offense of the Gospel! The gospel is offensive because we claim righteousness (through Christ), when we, ourselves, are so clearly unworthy of it. (Gal 5:11) People look at us, as we claim to be righteous and in good standing with God, and they look at all our faults and every little way we fall short, and it is offensive to them. They think we are being hypocritical and self-righteous to claim to be righteous and at the same time show so many faults. They think we are blaspheming! But we are not self-righteous! We are Christ-righteous! Praise God!

Our status, as sinners or righteous, has absolutely nothing to do with our deeds. The only thing that matters is that we BELIEVE Jesus has accomplished what He said He has. IF we BELIEVE, we will walk in LOVE. Jesus' commandments to us are to 1. BELIEVE 2. WALK IN LOVE.(1 John 3:23) If we BELIEVE we will walk in LOVE. Walking in LOVE is evidence of our BELIEF. Also, love is the fulfillment of the Law. Love does no wrong to its neighbor.

This has nothing to do with claiming to be perfect. No one is perfect in the flesh, except our Lord. We can stumble in the flesh, however God tells us not to walk according to the flesh.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:16-17)

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom 7:25)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (Rom 8:13)


When we stumble in the flesh, it is not imputed to us as sin. The only way we can sin is if we do not believe in Jesus. That said, God tells us NOT to walk according to the flesh. We are to walk according to the Spirit:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Gal 5:16)

So how do we know if we are walking according to the Spirit or according to the flesh? By the fruits:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Gal 5:19-21)


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Gal 5:22-26)


This is the Gospel! And what Good NEWS it is!!

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You were doing so well until this...

Our status, as sinners or righteous, has absolutely nothing to do with our deeds.

It has everything to do with our deeds. We will be judged by what we do as well as what we have said. The gospel speaks of a real power to overcome in this world. Abiding in Christ causes us to do the works of Christ.

 

[mark s]

You were doing so well until this...

Our status, as sinners or righteous, has absolutely nothing to do with our deeds.

It has everything to do with our deeds. We will be judged by what we do as well as what we have said. The gospel speaks of a real power to overcome in this world. Abiding in Christ causes us to do the works of Christ.

OK, Episkopos,

In this you have revealed yourself.

If in your words our status as righteous or not righteous is dependant upon our works, they you are proclaiming a gospel of works, which is really no gospel at all.

Tell me plainly . . . do you believe Christians reach a point in their earthly life when they cease from all sin?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[haz]

Hi Episkopis,

My question is similar to Mark S, but I guess maybe more specific.

Do you know anybody who has achieved this perfection in deeds/lifestyle you claim we need to have?

 

[Episkopos]

OK, Episkopos,

In this you have revealed yourself.

If in your words our status as righteous or not righteous is dependant upon our works, they you are proclaiming a gospel of works, which is really no gospel at all.

Tell me plainly . . . do you believe Christians reach a point in their earthly life when they cease from all sin?

Love in Christ,
Mark

We are saved in order to do the works of God not men. You have to see that God has a purpose that isn't a human one. Men are trying to wrestle away God's purpose for themselves...the same way they are trying to build a church for Him...in their own understanding.

So we are created to DO the works BY grace THROUGH faith. We do exactly as Jesus did this way. As He IS so are WE in this world. Not too many believe this and fewer have the faith that opens this reality up.

While it is always posible to turn away from Christ I do believe that a mature Christian has ceased from sin. As long as we abide in Christ we cannot sin...we are indeed dead to sin who are alive to God. This is basic bible teaching.

Hi Episkopis,

My question is similar to Mark S, but I guess maybe more specific.

Do you know anybody who has achieved this perfection in deeds/lifestyle you claim we need to have?

It is not for us to know this. We can't discern what power a person is living by....we only see the tip of the iceberg not the heart. But I do believe there are a certain number of disciples that walk in HIS power and HIS power alone...not even sinning for a moment...just like Jesus Himself; complete.

 

[haz]

Hi Episkopis,

Unfortunately you are reluctant to offer scripture to support your doctrine, claiming that it's no use to do so.
But why would you think making your own personal claims about your doctrine be any more worthwhile stating than scripture?

What I see from what you have shared is your doctrine is mixing grace and works of the law. But these 2 can't be mixed.

Rom 11:6
"if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Mixing grace and works is being lukewarm.

Rev 3:15,16
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.[sup] [/sup]So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth"

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopis,

Unfortunately you are reluctant to offer scripture to support your doctrine, claiming that it's no use to do so.
But why would you think making your own personal claims about your doctrine be any more worthwhile stating than scripture?

What I see from what you have shared is your doctrine is mixing grace and works of the law. But these 2 can't be mixed.

Rom 11:6
"if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Mixing grace and works is being lukewarm.

Rev 3:15,16
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.[sup] [/sup]So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth"

Where do you get this idea? You are formulating your own reality based on what you understand. Ironically the lukewarm reveal a lack of good works. They feel they are saved to look pretty or something. It is unfortunate that you react to a word without understanding the spiritual context. We are saved to DO the works prepared in advance. We are not being saved BY works. Why can't you see the huge difference here?

It is doers of the law that will be justified. God is not looking for mere lip-service...Try to understand.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Why would Paul make (in your opinion) such a lukewarm statement as this?

Could you be wrong and grace is meant to make real disciples of us in order to actually abide in Christ and do what He does? Would this not take real faith to seek for this?

 

[haz]

Where do you get this idea? You are formulating your own reality based on what you understand. Ironically the lukewarm reveal a lack of good works. They feel they are saved to look pretty or something. It is unfortunate that you react to a word without understanding the spiritual context. We are saved to DO the works prepared in advance. We are not being saved BY works. Why can't you see the huge difference here?

It is doers of the law that will be justified. God is not looking for mere lip-service...Try to understand.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Why would Paul make (in your opinion) such a lukewarm statement as this?

Could you be wrong and grace is meant to make real disciples of us in order to actually abide in Christ and do what He does? Would this not take real faith to seek for this?

Hi Episkopis,

Agreed, Rom 2:13 says the doers of the law are justisfied.

But scriptures also state the following:
Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ

Gal 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

And note also Gal 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

Also note Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Rom 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

And Rom 4:5,6
"[sup] [/sup]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:"

Paul in Rom 2:13 is not being lukewarm, as you wrongly suggest I'm saying. You are misunderstanding scripture.

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
Unfortunately some professing Christians "profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."Titus 1:16

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopis,

Agreed, Rom 2:13 says the doers of the law are justisfied.

But scriptures also state the following:
Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ

Gal 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

And note also Gal 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

Also note Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Rom 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

And Rom 4:5,6
"[sup] [/sup]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:"

Paul in Rom 2:13 is not being lukewarm, as you wrongly suggest I'm saying. You are misunderstanding scripture.

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
Unfortunately some professing Christians "profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."Titus 1:16

The last scripture you posted destroys your argument. We WILL work either death or life....this is to be hot or cold. The lukewarm claim to be Christians but have no good works. There is no spiritual life in them...they just claim certain scriptures and say they are saved.

You will of course agree with the scriptures...but of what use is that lip service if you don't understand the meaning? Try rather to actually understand what the gospel is really about.

 

[haz]

The last scripture you posted destroys your argument. We WILL work either death or life....this is to be hot or cold. The lukewarm claim to be Christians but have no good works. There is no spiritual life in them...they just claim certain scriptures and say they are saved.

You will of course agree with the scriptures...but of what use is that lip service if you don't understand the meaning? Try rather to actually understand what the gospel is really about.

Hi Episkopis,

It is unfortunate that you have no spiritual understanding of scriptures including Titus 1:16, "They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work"

We are clearly following different gospels.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopis,

It is unfortunate that you have no spiritual understanding of scriptures including Titus 1:16, "They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work"

We are clearly following different gospels.

Why are you mixing faith with works!!!! LOL

 

[haz]

Why are you mixing faith with works!!!! LOL

Hi Episkopis,

Are you mixing up "mixing faith with works" with "mixing grace with works" (of the law)?

Regarding faith, it is dead without works (James 2:26).
Unfortunately for you, you incorrectly see these works as works of the law.
This contradicts Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

And also Rom 11:6
"if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

The works God seeks from us is "believe on him whom he hath sent", John 6:29

If your believe works of the law determines righteousness, then your in unbelief.


BTW, you said: "Sin separates men from God. Carnality is walking in our own strength and understanding and opinions. When we are empowered by the Spirit we walk the same as Jesus walked. In the OT this walk was called the "highway of holiness". In the New testament it is called "The Way". It is impossible to sin in the Spirit...one must leave the presence of God in order to sin."

As you yourself claim that you fall into this category of being separated from God due to sin, how then can you claim to have any understanding of scripture since you yourself admit that you're not in the Spirit?

Also, your claim that you do not know anybody who is in the Spirit (without sin), contradicts scripture. In the NT we see many references to believers as being "saints", "righteous", "holy", etc. If you can't see anyone today in the Spirit (without sin) then why were there so many in the NT?

 

[mark s]

To remain in Christ - abide - is to be born again.

2 Cor 5:17 (ESV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

If you were to cease to be "in Christ", of necessity, you cease to be born again. If you cease to be born again any time that you sin, this then is on-again-off-again "salvation" based entirely on your works.

This is not what Scripture teaches.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Episkopos]

To remain in Christ - abide - is to be born again.

2 Cor 5:17 (ESV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

If you were to cease to be "in Christ", of necessity, you cease to be born again. If you cease to be born again any time that you sin, this then is on-again-off-again "salvation" based entirely on your works.

This is not what Scripture teaches.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Human reasoning should never trump the truth. One can easily be born again and walk according to the flesh. Esau sold his birthright for a temporal gratification. I think we'll be surprised at how many of us do the same.

Hi Episkopis,

Are you mixing up "mixing faith with works" with "mixing grace with works" (of the law)?

Regarding faith, it is dead without works (James 2:26).
Unfortunately for you, you incorrectly see these works as works of the law.
This contradicts Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

And also Rom 11:6
"if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

The works God seeks from us is "believe on him whom he hath sent", John 6:29

If your believe works of the law determines righteousness, then your in unbelief.


BTW, you said: "Sin separates men from God. Carnality is walking in our own strength and understanding and opinions. When we are empowered by the Spirit we walk the same as Jesus walked. In the OT this walk was called the "highway of holiness". In the New testament it is called "The Way". It is impossible to sin in the Spirit...one must leave the presence of God in order to sin."

As you yourself claim that you fall into this category of being separated from God due to sin, how then can you claim to have any understanding of scripture since you yourself admit that you're not in the Spirit?

Also, your claim that you do not know anybody who is in the Spirit (without sin), contradicts scripture. In the NT we see many references to believers as being "saints", "righteous", "holy", etc. If you can't see anyone today in the Spirit (without sin) then why were there so many in the NT?

One can claim to have understanding of the scriptures but we will not be quizzed in order prove our worthiness for the kingdom. We must walk the walk.

It is possible to have the Spirit in you without walking in the Spirit. In fact this is mostly what we find in our modern world. Very very few have even experienced walking in the Spirit. It takes a level of consecration to do this that we rich westerners just don't seem to understand. I, personally have found it difficult to walk in the Spirit because of loneliness in that I cannot find another Christian to fellowship with. The unreality in the present church is too great. But the race is not over.

On overcoming sin:

I want to use an aerodynamic example (using plane language of course)!

Now, does the invention of the airplane destroy the law of gravity? No.....but it overcomes it! So when we abide in an aircraft we are able to overcome gravity. As soon as we no longer abide in said aurcraft we fall and are subject to gravity once again.

So it is with abiding in Christ. Is the law abolished? No...rather it is overcome by abiding in Christ. As long as we abide in Christ we are not under the law...we cannot fall (sin) as long as we remain IN Christ.

 

[haz]

Human reasoning should never trump the truth. One can easily be born again and walk according to the flesh. Esau sold his birthright for a temporal gratification. I think we'll be surprised at how many of us do the same.



One can claim to have understanding of the scriptures but we will not be quizzed in order prove our worthiness for the kingdom. We must walk the walk.

It is possible to have the Spirit in you without walking in the Spirit. In fact this is mostly what we find in our modern world. Very very few have even experienced walking in the Spirit. It takes a level of consecration to do this that we rich westerners just don't seem to understand. I, personally have found it difficult to walk in the Spirit because of loneliness in that I cannot find another Christian to fellowship with. The unreality in the present church is too great. But the race is not over.

On overcoming sin:

I want to use an aerodynamic example (using plane language of course)!

Now, does the invention of the airplane destroy the law of gravity? No.....but it overcomes it! So when we abide in an aircraft we are able to overcome gravity. As soon as we no longer abide in said aurcraft we fall and are subject to gravity once again.

So it is with abiding in Christ. Is the law abolished? No...rather it is overcome by abiding in Christ. As long as we abide in Christ we are not under the law...we cannot fall (sin) as long as we remain IN Christ.

Hi Episkopis,

Regarding your example using Esau consider Heb 12:15-17.
[sup] "[/sup]looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;[sup] [/sup]lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. [sup] [/sup]For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears".

There is a point of going too far, like Esau did. After that it's impossible to be renewed unto repentance (Heb 6:4-6).


You said: "So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

Assuming you mean the 10 commandments (law of righteousness, aka law of sin and death), consider Rom 8:3,4
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup] [/sup]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

So this physical you seek to judge in determining whether someone is "walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it", is dead.
Rom 8:10
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin,"

Your doctrine of keeping Christians under the law is unbelief. It's walking in the flesh and thus not submitting to the righteousness of God.



I agree however that there is much unreality within churches. Unfortunately many churches seek submission to it's doctrines for fellowship in it's community. And even those churches who don't do this obtain similar results regardless due to that human condition of conforming to group think.
Your loneliness in not being able to find any other likeminded person is understandable. There are however churches who share similar grace + works of the law doctrine to you. But I advise against this. Such churches are lukewarm, Rev 3:16.


Finally, your reluctance to use scripture, relying instead on the power of your own words/claims, only hinders discussion. Your claims often come across as ambiguous without the context of scripture. Is this deliberate? Is there any chance you can change your style of communication?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopis,

Regarding your example using Esau consider Heb 12:15-17.
[sup]"[/sup]looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;[sup] [/sup]lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. [sup] [/sup]For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears".

There is a point of going too far, like Esau did. After that it's impossible to be renewed unto repentance (Heb 6:4-6).


You said: "So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."

Assuming you mean the 10 commandments (law of righteousness, aka law of sin and death), consider Rom 8:3,4
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup] [/sup]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

So this physical you seek to judge in determining whether someone is "walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it", is dead.
Rom 8:10
"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin,"

Your doctrine of keeping Christians under the law is unbelief. It's walking in the flesh and thus not submitting to the righteousness of God.



I agree however that there is much unreality within churches. Unfortunately many churches seek submission to it's doctrines for fellowship in it's community. And even those churches who don't do this obtain similar results regardless due to that human condition of conforming to group think.
Your loneliness in not being able to find any other likeminded person is understandable. There are however churches who share similar grace + works of the law doctrine to you. But I advise against this. Such churches are lukewarm, Rev 3:16.


Finally, your reluctance to use scripture, relying instead on the power of your own words/claims, only hinders discussion. Your claims often come across as ambiguous without the context of scripture. Is this deliberate? Is there any chance you can change your style of communication?

I try to not share scriptures unless I think they will be understood. What is the point in quoting what people will always agree with? Everybody agrees with scripture...just only a few understand them. So it is better to hear what people think they are actually saying.

Your doctrine of keeping Christians under the law is unbelief. It's walking in the flesh and thus not submitting to the righteousness of God.

We are to fulfill the law...not be subject to it. Your eliminarion of the law as a gauge shows that you espouse lawlessness. Grace does not make us lawless. Criminals are lawless. Christ rather fulfills the law IN US!!!!

Here is a verse...you can ignore it or explain it away as you wish...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This means that Christ is not righteous instead of us....but rather In us and through us as we walk exactly as He walked.

 

[haz]

I try to not share scriptures unless I think they will be understood. What is the point in quoting what people will always agree with? Everybody agrees with scripture...just only a few understand them. So it is better to hear what people think they are actually saying.



We are to fulfill the law...not be subject to it. Your eliminarion of the law as a gauge shows that you espouse lawlessness. Grace does not make us lawless. Criminals are lawless. Christ rather fulfills the law IN US!!!!

Here is a verse...you can ignore it or explain it away as you wish...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This means that Christ is not righteous instead of us....but rather In us and through us as we walk exactly as He walked.

Hi Episkopis,

It seems we're at a continual stalmate with no point continuing further discussion. I understand from your doctrine that you are in unbelief, whilst according to your works of the law doctrine I'm allegedly lawless.

You said: "I try to not share scriptures unless I think they will be understood. What is the point in quoting what people will always agree with? Everybody agrees with scripture...just only a few understand them. So it is better to hear what people think they are actually saying."

Unfortunately your reluctance to refer to scripture has only made discussion much more difficult. Your claim of being one of the rare few with understanding of scripture, and that whilst not walking in the Spirit and yet still facing death because of your sin, is merely your own contradictory personal claim to truth.

As you have no interest in sharing scripture with your alleged understanding and instead find it better to "hear what people think they are actually saying" and then you tell them their wrong in ambiguous, unsupported ways, seems unusual.

I note however, that you have found a very likeminded person (Prentis) on another forum topic. His beliefs and method of debate are very similar to yours and being that both you and Prentis are in Montreal you can fellowship together.

 

[Episkopos]

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This is most misused and twisted verse in the bible for the self-justifying crowd. John here is speaking of those who take no responsibility for their own sins (sound familiar?). The gnostics claimed to be holy in spite of sinning because they accused their bodies of a sin they were no longer to be accountable for...since they had saving knowledge. There are many here who hold to this heresy. The very people who tout this verse are in fact condemned by it...they claim to be already forgiven for every sin they will ever commit...so they have no sin!!!! Now how is that different from gnosticism? Gnostics believed that sin was no longer as issue for them...they just wiped their mouth and said...I have done nothing wrong. But these deceive themselves, as John says.

Now to those who think that John was preaching a gospel that cannot overcome sin...he says..

Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Why do so many not see what John is saying??? How could John be reassuring sinners on the one hand and then come out with this among many other verses that say the same? But people are so brainwashed that they can't see anything.

 

[mark s]

Then by your own words, as you've admitted you still sin, you do not know God.

 

[haz]

Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Hi Episkopos,

As mark s has rightly pointed out, by your own words you admit you still sin therefore your own doctrine shows that you do not know Christ.

Interestingly your claim to being one of the very few with true understanding of scriptures is in stark contradiction to the fact that your doctrine proves that you do not know Christ anyway.

And Rev 3:16 also confirms you do not know him. Your lukewarm doctrine mixing grace with works results in your being spewed out.

Episkopos,...repent and turn to God.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

As mark s has rightly pointed out, by your own words you admit you still sin therefore your own doctrine shows that you do not know Christ.

Interestingly your claim to being one of the very few with true understanding of scriptures is in stark contradiction to the fact that your doctrine proves that you do not know Christ anyway.

And Rev 3:16 also confirms you do not know him. Your lukewarm doctrine mixing grace with works results in your being spewed out.

Episkopos,...repent and turn to God.

You sadly continue to ignore the truth. Instead you seek to condemn me who is pointing it out. Who else did this? Hmm!