Are Christians sinners?
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Nice dodge! Look uip a few posts to post #98 and you will see that I did.
After that tell me by what power you walk in...human or divine???
Hardly plain!
But OK, as I re-read, I see what you have said. Exactly what I expected. We move into and out of a "saved state". So your salvation is "on-again-off-again" depending upon whether you are currently sinning or not. When you sin, you are not saved - in a "saved state".
This is a so-called gospel of works.
Hi all,
I haven't read the whole thread, but I knew the title of it was slightly incendiary... and hestitated to enter the fray.
Part of the problem of saying that a Christian is a sinner because he sins, or, that because a Christian sins therefore he might not be saved, is that neither of these pictures is found in scripture. John's first epistle chapter 1 and 2 covers the issues completely. It's up to us to make that our experience both practically and spiritually, not neglecting when the truth in us causes us to know our faults and failings, and refresh our fellowship with God through repentance and any changes we must make to our attitudes or behaviours.
For those who would like to hear a really professional presentation on the difference between 'a sinner' and 'a Christian who has sinned', here's a link to a sermon by Dr O J Smith. It's called The Spirit-Filled Life. The whole thing is worth hearing, but if you're short of time, start at minute 20, by which time he has made his case for why a Christian should be 'filled with the Spirit' - for 'power over sin' and 'power for service'
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=6612 Enjoy!
I haven't read the whole thread, but I knew the title of it was slightly incendiary... and hestitated to enter the fray.
Part of the problem of saying that a Christian is a sinner because he sins, or, that because a Christian sins therefore he might not be saved, is that neither of these pictures is found in scripture. John's first epistle chapter 1 and 2 covers the issues completely. It's up to us to make that our experience both practically and spiritually, not neglecting when the truth in us causes us to know our faults and failings, and refresh our fellowship with God through repentance and any changes we must make to our attitudes or behaviours.
For those who would like to hear a really professional presentation on the difference between 'a sinner' and 'a Christian who has sinned', here's a link to a sermon by Dr O J Smith. It's called The Spirit-Filled Life. The whole thing is worth hearing, but if you're short of time, start at minute 20, by which time he has made his case for why a Christian should be 'filled with the Spirit' - for 'power over sin' and 'power for service'
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=6612 Enjoy!
Hi Episkopos,
You claim you don't use scripture as theres no point, somehow believing that your own words have more power than God's. Also you don't give plain answers so that we have to search you out to come to an understanding of your fantasy-"truth" according to Episkopos.
But, as we have found, you have demonstrated that you are not a doer of the word. Your doctrine is of the ministry of death/condemnation. By your works (unbelief) you show that you "deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work" Tit 1:16
You said:
"You are not a follower of Christ unless you are walking by His Spirit."
"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet".
"Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will empower you to obey His commandments."
"There is no condemnation for those who abide in Christ...where there is no sin. But the soul that sins...it shall die."
As you yourself claim you do not perfectly obey the 10 commandments and not always walking in the Spirit it is clear from your doctrine that you have not humbled yourself in the sight of the Lord and hence you do not abide in him, you do not know him.
Regarding my question to you previously, your doctrine shows that should you, Episkopos, die physically whilst not perfectly obeying the 10 commandments (not abiding in Christ), then your soul would die.
Your "on-again-off-again" walk shows that you are not a doer of the word.
James 1:22-25
"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.[sup] [/sup]But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."
You claim you don't use scripture as theres no point, somehow believing that your own words have more power than God's. Also you don't give plain answers so that we have to search you out to come to an understanding of your fantasy-"truth" according to Episkopos.
But, as we have found, you have demonstrated that you are not a doer of the word. Your doctrine is of the ministry of death/condemnation. By your works (unbelief) you show that you "deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work" Tit 1:16
You said:
"You are not a follower of Christ unless you are walking by His Spirit."
"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet".
"Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will empower you to obey His commandments."
"There is no condemnation for those who abide in Christ...where there is no sin. But the soul that sins...it shall die."
As you yourself claim you do not perfectly obey the 10 commandments and not always walking in the Spirit it is clear from your doctrine that you have not humbled yourself in the sight of the Lord and hence you do not abide in him, you do not know him.
Regarding my question to you previously, your doctrine shows that should you, Episkopos, die physically whilst not perfectly obeying the 10 commandments (not abiding in Christ), then your soul would die.
Your "on-again-off-again" walk shows that you are not a doer of the word.
James 1:22-25
"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.[sup] [/sup]But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."
Only an insurance salesman can see the power of Christ as a works based salvation.
My walk is actually based on reality and experience. Anybody who makes up their own reality can do it just fine....why invent something that doesn't justify you!!! An psychologist can see through that scheme.
Yes. We Christians believe that Christ has dies to redeem us in all our sins but He was brought back to life .
That's right! And through His resurrection we can walk in newness of life....according a new power called grace.
Netchaplain
Ordained Chaplain
Please excuse me for re-posting this from my thread "The Sinner" but I considered it a potential use here:
I do not believe the Scriptural definition for sinner is merely “one who sins”, because the Christian isn’t referred to as a sinner in Scripture. The only passage that appears to indicate Christians are sinners is 1Ti 1:15; “. . . Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
The word “am” in the above Scriptural passage is the Greek word “eimi”, pronounced “ā-mē” and can mean, according to context, had been or was (Strong's Grk.). The law of hermeneutics, which is basically “Scripture interpreting Scripture”, calls for the “was” definition in this context. If Paul were admitting he is, at that time, the worst of all sinners, his claim would conflict with the remnant of Scripture, which is devoid of any references that anyone who is of God is a sinner.
This in no way intends that Christians do not sin, which would be a grievous misunderstanding and evidence of great ignorance and self-deception, nor should we allow this concept, or any understanding, to “puff us up” (1Cr 8:1). I believe the issue to sin is partly why, but mostly how. One who is truly of God encounters a continuous conviction of the Spirit’s chastisement when dealing with sin and therefore, the sin committed is never willful because the Spirit will ensure it is always accompanied with remorse and should be confessed.
“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish” (Gal 5:17). “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1Jhn 1:9).
The why-factor has always been an issue with God, as evidenced by the following Scripture passages: “So, the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the LORD, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people” (Num. 15:28, 30). These were in the Mosaic Law to the Jews and the issue concerning the why-factor of sin continues to retain significance. “If we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Heb. 10:26).
I would define a sinner as “one who sins willfully and without regard to God.”
I do not believe the Scriptural definition for sinner is merely “one who sins”, because the Christian isn’t referred to as a sinner in Scripture. The only passage that appears to indicate Christians are sinners is 1Ti 1:15; “. . . Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
The word “am” in the above Scriptural passage is the Greek word “eimi”, pronounced “ā-mē” and can mean, according to context, had been or was (Strong's Grk.). The law of hermeneutics, which is basically “Scripture interpreting Scripture”, calls for the “was” definition in this context. If Paul were admitting he is, at that time, the worst of all sinners, his claim would conflict with the remnant of Scripture, which is devoid of any references that anyone who is of God is a sinner.
This in no way intends that Christians do not sin, which would be a grievous misunderstanding and evidence of great ignorance and self-deception, nor should we allow this concept, or any understanding, to “puff us up” (1Cr 8:1). I believe the issue to sin is partly why, but mostly how. One who is truly of God encounters a continuous conviction of the Spirit’s chastisement when dealing with sin and therefore, the sin committed is never willful because the Spirit will ensure it is always accompanied with remorse and should be confessed.
“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish” (Gal 5:17). “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1Jhn 1:9).
The why-factor has always been an issue with God, as evidenced by the following Scripture passages: “So, the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the LORD, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people” (Num. 15:28, 30). These were in the Mosaic Law to the Jews and the issue concerning the why-factor of sin continues to retain significance. “If we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Heb. 10:26).
I would define a sinner as “one who sins willfully and without regard to God.”
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
The title of this thread is "Are Christians sinners." Let's let Scripture decide.
1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
The Apostle Paul, at the time he wrote this verse, considered himself the chief of sinners. I think we have our answer.
1Ti 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
The Apostle Paul, at the time he wrote this verse, considered himself the chief of sinners. I think we have our answer.
Amen Nomad
I agree Acts chapters 7and 8 would be a good read
The faith of Abraham and Paul
In my mind this marks the end of Daniels 70th week
And begins the poring out of Abraham's promise on all people and nations.
I agree Acts chapters 7and 8 would be a good read
The faith of Abraham and Paul
In my mind this marks the end of Daniels 70th week
And begins the poring out of Abraham's promise on all people and nations.
This one of those threads that an unbelivever would just shake their head and walk away from
Self loves knowledge because it can gain it without God and flaunt itt's self,plenty of atheist know the bible inside and out and many "christians" study it to show themselves....not show themselves approved.
Self loves knowledge because it can gain it without God and flaunt itt's self,plenty of atheist know the bible inside and out and many "christians" study it to show themselves....not show themselves approved.
Yes Nomad, and as in 1 John 1:7-10
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
So as we walk in the light Jesus purifies us when we sin, and IS faithful to do so IF we confess (agree) our sins.
The Symbolic Message Of Baptism
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Paul begins this phase of the gospel message with a series of questions, obviously addressed to his attackers.
First, he goes after the false assumption that the Law of Moses was added to put the spotlight on sin itself, the profusion of sin in the world (Romans 5:20,21), and that the increase of sin causes God's grace to be magnified.
If this is actually true, one might logically reason that we should sin all the more. The argument being that this would allow God to receive more glory, because of the magnification of His grace. Thus, the question of verse one is, "...Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"
Paul answers his own question with, "God forbid!", which demonstrates his absolute abhorrence of the idea. He then offers another question which reveals the absurdity of such reasoning: "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therin?"
That was a radical question, and it probably got the immediate attention of everyone. Paul was opening the door to his main subject of this section, which is the believer's death to sin, and his subsequent life in Christ.
In an effort to develop more fully the concept of the believer's death to sin, the Apostle draws our attention to the symbolic meaning of the ordinance of baptism.
Paul assumes we recognize the importance and the meaning of our baptism to be a sign of our willingness to be identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Specifically, he assumes we understand that baptism is the outward, symbolic expression of what has happened in the believer's heart: a genuine spiritual union with Christ.
At the moment of salvation we receive the Spirit of Christ; therefore, we are spiritually immersed into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). The act of baptism represents that fact by a corresponding physical immersion.
This also places us into relationship with a group of like-minded believers, a local body of Christ. Paul, as well as every other writer in the New Testament, assumes each believer will follow the Lord's directive concerning baptism, as given in (Matthew 28:19).
To be baptized into Christ means to be immersed into or joined tightly (as if fused together) to all Christ is and all that Christ does. Paul elaborates on the believer's baptism into Christ by informing us we are joined spiritually (or, eternally) with Christ in His death, His burial and His resurrection.
This means all believers, upon accepting Christ, are considered by God to have died with Christ on the cross, to have been buried with Christ in the tomb, and to have been raised with Christ as if born anew. From God's eternal vantage point, our old life ended and a new life began, simply because we accepted, in faith, God's grace. Water baptism, then, is our symbolic statement that this happened, and that it is our intention to walk out our new life in Christ.
Because of this new position, this union with Christ, it is impossible for the believer in Jesus Christ to continue in the realm of sin. Instead, we are spiritually united with the One who, through His own death, has delivered us from sin. Although this is a spiritual fact, it must be worked out progressively on earth.
Death is an integral part of Resurrection. There can be no resurrection until there is first death. Our Lord placed no emphasis upon physical death, but He spoke often of our need for moral and spiritual death. Our death and resurrection is something God has accomplished eternally. Our responsibility is to work it out progressively while we are still in the flesh. Dying to self begins by bringing every thought into captivity to Christ. This is primary, because every sin begins with a thought (2 Corinthians 10:5).
Our union with Christ is a fact which needs to be understood clearly, and continually accepted by each believer. In describing our position in Christ, Paul emphasized that we are spiritually joined to Christ in His death, His burial, and His resurrection. This enables us to "walk in newness of life" (Romans 1:3,4)
Initially, we may have a tendency to strain ourselves as we attempt to bring our carnal minds and our unbridled flesh into line with Paul's words. Eventually, however, we learn that only Christ can make us Christlike, so we settle down and begin to spend all our energies focusing upon Him.
It is important for us to understand that our new birth is not a conception of something which comes forth from us. It is a thing which enters into us. It is the birth of the life of the Son of God which enters and causes a transfiguration to take place. The death of the "old" and the resurrection of the "new."
It is a vital transaction which created within us an eternal relationship. We no longer just know about God, intellectually. We now know God, personally. Amen!
Ponder these questions:
-
How would I describe my death to sin? -
How does the ordinance of baptism relate to my death to sin? -
What do I mean when I say I am spiritually immersed into Christ? -
How would I explain that I have died with Christ and have been buried with Him in death? -
In what way have I been resurrected with Christ? -
In what way have I stepped into an eternal existence?
The Symbolic Message Of Baptism
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Paul begins this phase of the gospel message with a series of questions, obviously addressed to his attackers.
First, he goes after the false assumption that the Law of Moses was added to put the spotlight on sin itself, the profusion of sin in the world (Romans 5:20,21), and that the increase of sin causes God's grace to be magnified.
If this is actually true, one might logically reason that we should sin all the more. The argument being that this would allow God to receive more glory, because of the magnification of His grace. Thus, the question of verse one is, "...Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"
Paul answers his own question with, "God forbid!", which demonstrates his absolute abhorrence of the idea. He then offers another question which reveals the absurdity of such reasoning: "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therin?"
That was a radical question, and it probably got the immediate attention of everyone. Paul was opening the door to his main subject of this section, which is the believer's death to sin, and his subsequent life in Christ.
In an effort to develop more fully the concept of the believer's death to sin, the Apostle draws our attention to the symbolic meaning of the ordinance of baptism.
Paul assumes we recognize the importance and the meaning of our baptism to be a sign of our willingness to be identified with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Specifically, he assumes we understand that baptism is the outward, symbolic expression of what has happened in the believer's heart: a genuine spiritual union with Christ.
At the moment of salvation we receive the Spirit of Christ; therefore, we are spiritually immersed into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). The act of baptism represents that fact by a corresponding physical immersion.
This also places us into relationship with a group of like-minded believers, a local body of Christ. Paul, as well as every other writer in the New Testament, assumes each believer will follow the Lord's directive concerning baptism, as given in (Matthew 28:19).
To be baptized into Christ means to be immersed into or joined tightly (as if fused together) to all Christ is and all that Christ does. Paul elaborates on the believer's baptism into Christ by informing us we are joined spiritually (or, eternally) with Christ in His death, His burial and His resurrection.
This means all believers, upon accepting Christ, are considered by God to have died with Christ on the cross, to have been buried with Christ in the tomb, and to have been raised with Christ as if born anew. From God's eternal vantage point, our old life ended and a new life began, simply because we accepted, in faith, God's grace. Water baptism, then, is our symbolic statement that this happened, and that it is our intention to walk out our new life in Christ.
Because of this new position, this union with Christ, it is impossible for the believer in Jesus Christ to continue in the realm of sin. Instead, we are spiritually united with the One who, through His own death, has delivered us from sin. Although this is a spiritual fact, it must be worked out progressively on earth.
Death is an integral part of Resurrection. There can be no resurrection until there is first death. Our Lord placed no emphasis upon physical death, but He spoke often of our need for moral and spiritual death. Our death and resurrection is something God has accomplished eternally. Our responsibility is to work it out progressively while we are still in the flesh. Dying to self begins by bringing every thought into captivity to Christ. This is primary, because every sin begins with a thought (2 Corinthians 10:5).
Our union with Christ is a fact which needs to be understood clearly, and continually accepted by each believer. In describing our position in Christ, Paul emphasized that we are spiritually joined to Christ in His death, His burial, and His resurrection. This enables us to "walk in newness of life" (Romans 1:3,4)
Initially, we may have a tendency to strain ourselves as we attempt to bring our carnal minds and our unbridled flesh into line with Paul's words. Eventually, however, we learn that only Christ can make us Christlike, so we settle down and begin to spend all our energies focusing upon Him.
It is important for us to understand that our new birth is not a conception of something which comes forth from us. It is a thing which enters into us. It is the birth of the life of the Son of God which enters and causes a transfiguration to take place. The death of the "old" and the resurrection of the "new."
It is a vital transaction which created within us an eternal relationship. We no longer just know about God, intellectually. We now know God, personally. Amen!
Ponder these questions:
-
How would I describe my death to sin? -
How does the ordinance of baptism relate to my death to sin? -
What do I mean when I say I am spiritually immersed into Christ? -
How would I explain that I have died with Christ and have been buried with Him in death? -
In what way have I been resurrected with Christ? -
In what way have I stepped into an eternal existence?
Netchaplain
Ordained Chaplain
Hi Nomad - The reason why I believe Paul meant "was chief" is because this is the only Scripture in the Bible which possibly indicates that saints are sinners; because there is no Scripture that refers to a saint as a sinner. As we know, this doesn't mean saints do not sin. Sin with repentance does not make one a sinner, but everyone was a sinner prior to regeneration. A sinner is one who is under the rule of sin!
The title of the thread;" Are Christians sinners"-
When God first made man, he made him perfect, able to live and love as he should, free from sin and sin's worst consequence, which is death. But our first parents turned away from God, and the human race hasn't been right since.
Sin is a violation of the way things should be, a violation of a fundamental law. That law was designed by God to make us happy. Think of how it would be if everyone in the world lived up to that law.
Unfortunately, we all turn away from God's law. In doing so, we turn away from him. If we don't come back to God, we will be separated from him forever. But we are caught in a cycle of sin. Try as we might, we can't break free. Not on our own
.
God has not abandoned us, because God is love. He loves the world he made, and he loves us, broken though we are.
God loves us so much that he sent his only Son to become one of us and to save the human race.
When God first made man, he made him perfect, able to live and love as he should, free from sin and sin's worst consequence, which is death. But our first parents turned away from God, and the human race hasn't been right since.
Sin is a violation of the way things should be, a violation of a fundamental law. That law was designed by God to make us happy. Think of how it would be if everyone in the world lived up to that law.
Unfortunately, we all turn away from God's law. In doing so, we turn away from him. If we don't come back to God, we will be separated from him forever. But we are caught in a cycle of sin. Try as we might, we can't break free. Not on our own
.
God has not abandoned us, because God is love. He loves the world he made, and he loves us, broken though we are.
God loves us so much that he sent his only Son to become one of us and to save the human race.
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