And another great subject is "Do you have sin consciousness or Christ consciousness?"
Are Christians sinners?
- Thread starter RubberDuckey
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And another great subject is "Do you have sin consciousness or Christ consciousness?"
I am fully aware that in Christ our sins are 'no more'...that when God looks at as He sees only the righteousness of Jesus. But biblical passages combined with simple fact, tells me that Christians still sin. If you, or any other Christian tells me they don't sin, quite frankly, I will not believe you...sorry. To not sin any more, means you are now perfect...which clearly you are not...no one is!! You cannot tell me that you never think an unfavourable thought, or ignore someone in need...basically that you always think, say and do the perfect thing.
Biblically, I would ask why we are told these things:
*To repent when we sin (that would kind of imply that we do sin)
*To encourage others not to sin, and to point out sin in a brother ('brother' is a fellow Christian, as you know, which implies that we still sin)
*To fight against sin in our walk of sanctification
Being free from sin means we now have to choice to turn away from sin...we need not be enslaved to it. We have the Spirit within us, helping us to repent from our sins and put them to death. This is not a one time deal...you're deceiving yourself if you think it is. Honestly, take a step back and really take a look at yourself...are you perfect? Would your kids say you're perfect, you spouse, your parents?? Until we are freed from this sinful body we will need to keep walking that walk...of learning, growing and repenting. That is how we 'grow' in Christ-likeness. If it happened in an instant (like salvation) it wouldn't be a process and we wouldn't be able to 'grow', which implies a constant learning and improving process.
You can't just take a passage or two that talks of having no sin, and presume that means you're perfect. And I would perhaps point out that your verses above actually talk of being freed from sin...not being sin free. As I said before...big difference!!
You say that 1 John 3:9 tells us that we 'have no sin', but how do you reconcile that with what he says just a few passages earlier?
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10 ESV)
It does not say that if we confess our sins that Jesus will make us perfect. It says he will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We know this means that in God's eyes we attain Christ's perfection. It does not give any indication that we are made completely sin free...that we cannot sin because it is simply impossible. Only Jesus can live that life...that's why He had to impute that righteousness to us...even now, even 'saved', we could not live that perfect life.
Indeed, knowing now that to say we have no sin is a sin, how do we approach the verses you gave? Let me put down a brief passage from a commentary, since it might be more authoritative and learned than just my opinion:
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning." We must not water down statements like this; the Christian has no business with sin and must never be complacent about it, even about occasional sin. But we should also notice that the present tense in Greek often has a continuous force and this appears to be significant here: 'No-one who continually lives in him makes a habit of sinning; and again No-one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. John is not writing about individual acts of sin, but about habitual attitudes. John has already repudiated the doctrine of sinless perfection (1:8, 10) and we must not interpret these words in such a way as to contradict those. But we must see that sin and the Christian are radically opposed. "John is arguing rather the incongruity than the impossibility of sin in the Christian" (J.R.W Stott, The Letters of John)
Hi Rach,
How do you define sin?
Definitions are important if we are to understand each others message.
If you say it's transgression of the law (1John 3:4), are Christians under the law? If not then there is no sin.
“whatever the law says it says to those who are under it” (Rom 3:19).
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
"if you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT under the law." (Gal 5:18)
“the law was NOT made for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN)” (Rom 4:15).
If you define sin as unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9), Christians believe on Jesus hence no sin.
If you define sin as unrighteousness (1John 5:17), Christians are righteous in Christ, hence no sin here either.
You refer to 1John 1:8-10 to say Christians still sin. What "sin" do you think it speaks of if it refers to Christians?
I see 1John 1 differently.
Reading the chapter from the start note it's context.
1John 1:2,3
"the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— [sup] [/sup]that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ."
Note here how eternal life is being declared so that others also may have fellowship. It's the gospel being declared here to unbelievers.
Note also 1John 1:6
"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness (without Christ), we lie and do not practice the truth"
Again, referring to unbelievers here.
1John 1 speaks to unbelievers.
If it referred to Christians what "sin" do you think it refers to?
Consider Rom 3:25:
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST"
As it's only past sins that were forgiven, clearly there is no more sin as it was finally dealt with. Any Christian who turns back to sin (unbelief/unrighteousness/works of the law) is lost and is like a dog returning to it's own vomit (2Pet 2:22).
You quoted Stott's commentary on 1John 3:6-9. He spoke of habitual attitudes of sin. This is ambiguous. He offers no definition of sin and also gives no measure of what determines habitual sin.
For example you said, regarding your understanding of sin: "You cannot tell me that you never think an unfavourable thought, or ignore someone in need."
How often have you, or any Christian, been guilty of this? Often enough that it can be considered habitual by J.R.W Stott? How often is an offence habitual? Is it 7x70?
I know of no scripture which confirms the habitual sin doctrine.
Consider the criminal on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". He was saved even though he was a criminal till the day he died. He was righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin when he believed on Jesus. That day he was with Christ in paradise.
Dying on the cross next to Jesus, he had no opportunity to (using your words) "'grow', which implies a constant learning and improving process".
I understand repentance differently than you do. You describe it in terms of repenting every time you behave badly. This is not repentance if you are offending over and over again.
Consider Heb 6:1-6 on repentance.
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [sup] [/sup]And this we will do if God permits.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [sup] [/sup]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Clearly repentance is a once only event. Repenting of dead works of self-righteousness and instead turning back to God, submitting to His righteousness, by faith.
I agree that in the physical we will not see perfection. I'm not looking at the physical. As Christ is in us the body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
I'm looking at Christ in us as believers.
Gal 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;"
2cor 5:16,17
"Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.[sup] [/sup]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Hey Haz!
Well, yes, I suppose it is important to define sin. I would define it as anything that offends the holy nature of God. It is true that 'transgression of the law' is sin, but that's not all that sin is. Sin existed before the law. The law was given to show the sinful nature of people, to show the holy nature of God. But I would still say that even without the law, there was sin. I would also say that while unbelief is sin, it's not all sin is. The same goes with 'unrighteousness'.
Let me try to explain...Adam and Eve believed in God, they had righteousness in the beginning, and they did not yet have the law to transgress against. And yet they still sinned. In pride, an attitude of the heart, they believed that their way was better than Gods. And today we still do that...it has become the nature of our fallen selves. We believe in Jesus, we have his righteousness imputed to us, and we are not under the law. But still we snap at our children, growl at the dude who cut us off in traffic, and become self righteously offended at other people. These are sins. But the freedom we have in Christ allows us to see these things...that they are sins, and we are therefore able to repent and ask for forgiveness and the strength to put such things to death.
I disagree. The gospels speak to unbelievers, the epistles are letters to believers. Sure they also reaffirm the gospel, they are powerful tools to unbelievers as well...just as the gospels are still amazing to those who believe.
But clearly the 'rest' of 1 John..2 and 3 as well...are to believers. It's perhaps just a little too convenient, don't you think, for that very first chapter to be addressing a whole different set of people? If he were writing to unbelievers, the whole letter would be addressed to them. I'm sorry, there is zero proof to suggest that this first chapter is to a different people than the rest.
Plus, just because the first chapter talks of the gospel, doesn't mean a thing, as I said above. Paul pronounced the gospel news in pretty much every single letter he wrote!
No, the only logical conclusion is that the whole letter is to believers, which takes us right back to needing to put it back into context. Christians do sin...to say otherwise is to sin.
I very much disagree with this.
For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (Romans 6:10 ESV)
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27 ESV)
Jesus died, once for all, to conquer sin. To suggest that it was not all consuming of God's wrath, suggests imperfection of his sacrifice. It also suggests that something is left to be done in our salvation. Our salvation was bought in full by Christ.
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (1 Peter 3:18 ESV)
We are 'brought' to God with Christ's righteousness, not with a perfection of our own. You may be saying that Christ gives us sinlessness, but in reality, that is saying that when Jesus died he made us actually perfect. That is not true. He changed our 'status' with God, and gave us the ability to fight against sin, but He did not make us perfect. The bible is clear we will only be that when we cease breathing.
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3 ESV)
Again we see we were 'delivered'. But the really interesting point here is that Jude feels the need to urge these Christians to 'contend' for the faith. Outsiders were coming in and teaching heretical things and the Christians were in danger of being led astray. Now, if they were incapable of sinning, wouldn't that be a danger Jude wouldn't need to worry about?
Stott was quoted by the commentary I copied from. I haven't actually read any of Stott's work, although I hear it's very good.
Habitual sin versus individual, specific sins it actually just basic common sense. Let me paint a picture. Let's just say that there was a person who was very involved in a Church....they were an Elder. He claimed to love Jesus, did all the right things, prayed, gave, listened. But it turned out that he was cheating on his wife. When asked about this, he gave the reply that he didn't see he was doing anything wrong and he had no intention of stopping it...but fully expected to remain where he was in the church. The fact that this man had kept it quiet as long as he had, suggests that he was aware that the bible labelled his actions sinful, but his own desires where being placed before God's .This is habitual sin...where you see it, but don't care. You feel that there is no reason to make you feel you should change. That indeed you have a right to behave this way. This is the kind of sin John is talking about when he says "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning". This man is not truly saved...he has not been regenerated, he does not have a new heart and the Holy Spirit within, convicting him of his sinful nature.
But what of a man, same position in the Church, same 'activities' within the Church, who makes a terrible choice one time. He cheats, and feels it...deeply. God weighs on him the conviction of his sin and he cries out in shame and repentance. Is he forgiven? The bible tells us that he is...this man was honest with his sins, the very fact that he felt conviction at all shows that he has the Holy Spirit working within him.
You can deny this difference if you want, but you then also deny much of the content and intent of the NT letters....as well as the gospels. How many times did Peter stand up and arrogantly act out? What about his stark denial of Jesus just before the cross? Even after Christ rose Peter still messed up! Witness Paul having to call him on his sin...and yet Peter repented...as all Christians must when we stumble.
Yes, he was saved. As am I...I have been from the instant Jesus saved me and gifted me with his grace. I always will be saved. But I am far from perfect! I still sin. Ask my kids, my husband, my parents, my siblings. But by the grace of God I am growing. I am growing closer to God as I read and pray, and this reflects (I hope!!) in my life. I am learning to trust God more and more, and certainly love and appreciate him more and more, every day I live. And one of the things I am growing in understanding of? My own hopelessness. Everyday brings home to me just how much I need his grace and mercy! How arrogant would I become if I felt I was now perfected and had nothing more to do. No! God is gracing me with life...and I will spend every second of it...be it but minutes more or decades more, striving to grow towards him....growing in 'Christ like-ness'. Being convicted, repenting, and glorifying God as I know that he will forgive me, pick me up and pull me a step closer to him.
Yes, we obviously see it differently. I think there might be a mix up between salvation, and sanctification. Salvation is a one off event. In that moment when I repent of my life of rebellion and sin and accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, I am saved. From that moment on, salvation is not in question...purely because it is Christ's strength, his perfection, his sacrifice, that holds me to it.
But everyday after that is a day to live for him. We don't say 'that's done...let's now turn and think/do other stuff'. We live to bring glory to God. And do you know that nothing pleases God more, or gives glory to him more, than a sinner repenting? The bible tells us that there is 'rejoicing in the presence of the angels'...that's God, by the way!!
It's really quite simple. You sin. I'm sorry, there is no way I'd believe otherwise. For two simple reasons: 1. I've spent all of my life around wonderful, committed, growing Christians...and not one of them has been perfect and sin free. And 2. the bible tells us that no one (except Jesus) will be perfect in this life time. So if, after being 'saved', we still sin...not habitual sin, but the occasional tumbles of a toddler learning to walk...what do we do? We repent and grow...giving glory to Jesus each time, because we know that the very realisation that we sin and need to repent comes from him. That's grace right there....he cares enough to tell us when we are giving in to something that will harm us. We also praise him that he gives us the strength to put that behaviour to death and turn, each time, again to him. This is such an amazing and joyful walk. Sure, at times it is tough...so much of us wants to just slouch back...to enter again into this fallen world...it would be easier....in the short term! But salvation comes with a 'helper'...the Holy Spirit, and he is our constant companion in this walk...God's salvation and sanctification plan for us is so amazing!
'We regard no one according to the flesh' means that we don't regard Christians according to worldly standards and values that derive from living as if one’s present physical life is all that matters.
And being a 'new creation' is talking about the redemption of a people who now live for Christ by living for others, effected by the power of the Spirit (3:3, 6, 18) and the death of Christ (5:14-15). It's in the work of Christ that we now have the miraculous ability to turn from sin, repent and move towards the fulfilment of his kingdom! That is true freedom from sin, which is only death.
Hi Rach,
We differ on our definitions of sin.
Your lack of scriptural support for your claim that Christians still sin (in spite of the cross) leaves me unconvinced. You also have not addressed those scriptures which clearly state that Christians do not sin. Your one attempt, in quoting Stott's commentary, was unsupported with scripture. Scripture confirms scripture, and Stott's doctrine on habitual sin is lacking any scriptural support.
You suggested an example of habitual sin with an Elder in a church. You claimed he was unsaved because of habitual sin.
But, what of the real life habitual behavior we see in Christians?
Examples:
1: YOU said: "But still we snap at our children, growl at the dude who cut us off in traffic, and become self righteously offended at other people. These are sins."
Perhaps you are including yourself in this statement, but regardless, is this not "habitual sin" by your definition? Are such people unsaved just like that Elder in the church example you gave?
2: Divorce and remarriage are common place in many societies. Many churches even marry these divorcees. BUT Mark 10:11,12 describes this as adultery. Again we see here "habitual sin", by your definition. And these adulterous marriages are even condoned by the churches that marry them. Are such people unsaved according to Stott's habitual sin doctrine (just like that church Elder example you gave)?
And how often must an alleged "sin" occur for it to be habitual?
That behavior you described of the church Elder in an affair is similar to divorcees marrying another (adultery) and the continued snap/growl/become self-righteously offended at others. Whilst it's all wrong it is continually done and accepted as normal in our lives/circumstances.
Also, do you have scripture to support this "habitual sin" doctrine you follow?
Some of your points suggest you misunderstand my message.
Righteousness/holiness/perfection is ONLY in Christ. It's not of ourselves, if thats what you are claiming I might think.
Consider Rom 11:16
"if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches"
Heb 10:14
"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
BUT, ONLY IN CHRIST.
You state that you disagree with Rom 3:25 regarding PAST sins being forgiven.
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST"
I can't make it any clearer than scripture states it though. The fact that PAST sins were forgiven supports Rom 6:7 "freed from sin", 1Pet 4:1 "ceased from sin", 1John 3:9 "cannot sin".
If we continue in Christ then this is our position. This is not however saying that Christians cannot fall away into unbelief (sin). Hence I agree we need to be wary of heretical teachings that can lead us away from Christ.
Regarding your claim as to who the epistles are written to, I differ in that I see the Bible is for mankind, saved and unsaved, hence verses need to be read in context. Your explaination for the contrary claims of sin/cannot sin (1John 1:8 v's 1John 3:9) is incorrect and lacking scriptural support.
You speak of repentance as a continual thing for any wrong behavior you do as a Christian. This is at odds with scripture such as Heb 6:1-6 I quoted to you. Can you show scripture to support your claim?
BTW, just a reminder that I am not referring to the phyiscal in quoting those scriptures saying that Christians cannot sin. The physical will never be perfect, which you yourself agree with. Where we seem to differ is that it seems you overlook scripture that our old man is crucified with Christ. "If Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin" Rom 8:10
We differ on our definitions of sin.
Your lack of scriptural support for your claim that Christians still sin (in spite of the cross) leaves me unconvinced. You also have not addressed those scriptures which clearly state that Christians do not sin. Your one attempt, in quoting Stott's commentary, was unsupported with scripture. Scripture confirms scripture, and Stott's doctrine on habitual sin is lacking any scriptural support.
You suggested an example of habitual sin with an Elder in a church. You claimed he was unsaved because of habitual sin.
But, what of the real life habitual behavior we see in Christians?
Examples:
1: YOU said: "But still we snap at our children, growl at the dude who cut us off in traffic, and become self righteously offended at other people. These are sins."
Perhaps you are including yourself in this statement, but regardless, is this not "habitual sin" by your definition? Are such people unsaved just like that Elder in the church example you gave?
2: Divorce and remarriage are common place in many societies. Many churches even marry these divorcees. BUT Mark 10:11,12 describes this as adultery. Again we see here "habitual sin", by your definition. And these adulterous marriages are even condoned by the churches that marry them. Are such people unsaved according to Stott's habitual sin doctrine (just like that church Elder example you gave)?
And how often must an alleged "sin" occur for it to be habitual?
That behavior you described of the church Elder in an affair is similar to divorcees marrying another (adultery) and the continued snap/growl/become self-righteously offended at others. Whilst it's all wrong it is continually done and accepted as normal in our lives/circumstances.
Also, do you have scripture to support this "habitual sin" doctrine you follow?
Some of your points suggest you misunderstand my message.
Righteousness/holiness/perfection is ONLY in Christ. It's not of ourselves, if thats what you are claiming I might think.
Consider Rom 11:16
"if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches"
Heb 10:14
"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
BUT, ONLY IN CHRIST.
You state that you disagree with Rom 3:25 regarding PAST sins being forgiven.
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST"
I can't make it any clearer than scripture states it though. The fact that PAST sins were forgiven supports Rom 6:7 "freed from sin", 1Pet 4:1 "ceased from sin", 1John 3:9 "cannot sin".
If we continue in Christ then this is our position. This is not however saying that Christians cannot fall away into unbelief (sin). Hence I agree we need to be wary of heretical teachings that can lead us away from Christ.
Regarding your claim as to who the epistles are written to, I differ in that I see the Bible is for mankind, saved and unsaved, hence verses need to be read in context. Your explaination for the contrary claims of sin/cannot sin (1John 1:8 v's 1John 3:9) is incorrect and lacking scriptural support.
You speak of repentance as a continual thing for any wrong behavior you do as a Christian. This is at odds with scripture such as Heb 6:1-6 I quoted to you. Can you show scripture to support your claim?
BTW, just a reminder that I am not referring to the phyiscal in quoting those scriptures saying that Christians cannot sin. The physical will never be perfect, which you yourself agree with. Where we seem to differ is that it seems you overlook scripture that our old man is crucified with Christ. "If Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin" Rom 8:10
A Christian is one who is learning to abide in Christ and walk only by the Spirit. One cannot sin when one does this. But in our time the superficiality of the gospel message presents a portion of the truth but without the power of the gospel. So it is not commonly understood in modern times that one does not sin when filled with the Spirit. Spiritual "highs" are rather sought to convince one that they are experiencing something other than just a carnal reaction to an out side stimulus. The depth of the Spirit is then never plumbed out and these stay always as they were...in the flesh. Carnality rules!!! ;(
How so? We must be careful of not playing the popular game of semantics that leads people to miss the implications of the New Testament. The bible doesn't mean what it means????
OK This is going too far with the idea that salvation is a cookie cutter experience that leads to the same outcome every time. Salvation is not a technique or system.
While it is good to not just throw away the victory over sin that abiding in Christ provides...one must be careful to not try to explain away the power of the gospel by making unreality fill in the gaps of understanding on the matter.
The power of the gospel makes one walk exactly as Jesus did on earth. No difference. As Jesus IS so are WE in this world. So the victory over sin is not one of God turning a blind eye to our antics in the flesh...NO!!! Rather we walk by grace and faith...not by what the eye sees. We show we are not under the law by actually fulfilling the spiritual requirements of the law...not ignoring the law.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
This does not mean that we are dead from the judgment and truth of the law. It means we are dead from trying to do the law in our own strength. We are dead to our own efforts. But we are not to show carnality by breaking the law...but show the holiness of Christ by walking in Him and doing what Jesus is doing...perfectly.
There are many schemes that people espouse that seek to minimize what Jesus did. Some write off the law as an unattainable standard (What? obey God?) while others seek to make the law of no effect for Christians since we are to be dead to (effects) the law (can you say lawless?). But of course both these positions are heritical (divisive).
Anything but believe in the truth...
The truth is that the law is a standard that no man walking in his own power can perform consistently. So the law condemns sin in the flesh. That is good. But Jesus Christ has fulfilled these requirements and now He seeks to fulfill these requirements IN US!!!! That is the power of the gospel...that we walk in His resurrection life showing forth the power of the life to come and this through a perfect obedience that is made possible through grace. Anything less is false.
So rather than lowering the standard to make more people walk in...we are to uphold the standard of God (even to our own hurt) and look to Him for the needed empowerment to fulfill the law. The law is holy. Only the holy ones in Christ will fulfill it. THAT is our witness that Jesus is alive in this world...that we walk just as He walked. Overcoming sin with Jesus is our calling. Few today even understand this calling let alone actually walk in Christ to do it. That is the sign of the times. We are in the time of Laodicea where we have lost all semblance of reality and truth.
One would think the bible said...For the law of sin and life has set me free from the law of sin and death.
How so? We must be careful of not playing the popular game of semantics that leads people to miss the implications of the New Testament. The bible doesn't mean what it means????
OK This is going too far with the idea that salvation is a cookie cutter experience that leads to the same outcome every time. Salvation is not a technique or system.
While it is good to not just throw away the victory over sin that abiding in Christ provides...one must be careful to not try to explain away the power of the gospel by making unreality fill in the gaps of understanding on the matter.
The power of the gospel makes one walk exactly as Jesus did on earth. No difference. As Jesus IS so are WE in this world. So the victory over sin is not one of God turning a blind eye to our antics in the flesh...NO!!! Rather we walk by grace and faith...not by what the eye sees. We show we are not under the law by actually fulfilling the spiritual requirements of the law...not ignoring the law.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
This does not mean that we are dead from the judgment and truth of the law. It means we are dead from trying to do the law in our own strength. We are dead to our own efforts. But we are not to show carnality by breaking the law...but show the holiness of Christ by walking in Him and doing what Jesus is doing...perfectly.
There are many schemes that people espouse that seek to minimize what Jesus did. Some write off the law as an unattainable standard (What? obey God?) while others seek to make the law of no effect for Christians since we are to be dead to (effects) the law (can you say lawless?). But of course both these positions are heritical (divisive).
Anything but believe in the truth...
The truth is that the law is a standard that no man walking in his own power can perform consistently. So the law condemns sin in the flesh. That is good. But Jesus Christ has fulfilled these requirements and now He seeks to fulfill these requirements IN US!!!! That is the power of the gospel...that we walk in His resurrection life showing forth the power of the life to come and this through a perfect obedience that is made possible through grace. Anything less is false.
So rather than lowering the standard to make more people walk in...we are to uphold the standard of God (even to our own hurt) and look to Him for the needed empowerment to fulfill the law. The law is holy. Only the holy ones in Christ will fulfill it. THAT is our witness that Jesus is alive in this world...that we walk just as He walked. Overcoming sin with Jesus is our calling. Few today even understand this calling let alone actually walk in Christ to do it. That is the sign of the times. We are in the time of Laodicea where we have lost all semblance of reality and truth.
One would think the bible said...For the law of sin and life has set me free from the law of sin and death.
are christians sinners?
it all comes down to how you look at it. if you look at it from the view of have we ever done wrong the yes we are all sinners. if you look at it from the point of are we slaves to sin then no we are not. we are given grace to allow us to grow in the Lord. as we grow in the Lord we should be sinning less and less. for example i used to sin repeatedly by cussing and at least every few minutes but now i have no problem with that all. i can now go several hours without sinning and even longer if try really hard. what i am saying is that there should come a time that as you are growing in the Lord that we should not have to sin for 5 minutes and then it should go to 10 minutes then and hour then a day then a week then a month then a year then eventually we should never sin again. i have never known anyone who reached this area of never sinning again but the word teaches that all things are possible with God and that i can do all things through Christ. so to deny this is true(even if highly unlikely) is unscriptual. it all comes down to how bad we really want to achieve a sinless lifestyle. just because we have never met or known anyone to achieve a sinless lifestyle is no reason to discredit it. i have never seen God but i know he exists. if we really want something in life we make a choice. there is always time to do what we really want to do in in our lives. how much time do you spend with God a day? i challenge you to keep a record of how much time you spend each day doing what it is you do every day working , reading books, praying, watching tv, and ect. most times only about 20% of our time is spent with God. what would happen if we spent 75% of our time with God. i wonder what we could accomplish.
God bless
it all comes down to how you look at it. if you look at it from the view of have we ever done wrong the yes we are all sinners. if you look at it from the point of are we slaves to sin then no we are not. we are given grace to allow us to grow in the Lord. as we grow in the Lord we should be sinning less and less. for example i used to sin repeatedly by cussing and at least every few minutes but now i have no problem with that all. i can now go several hours without sinning and even longer if try really hard. what i am saying is that there should come a time that as you are growing in the Lord that we should not have to sin for 5 minutes and then it should go to 10 minutes then and hour then a day then a week then a month then a year then eventually we should never sin again. i have never known anyone who reached this area of never sinning again but the word teaches that all things are possible with God and that i can do all things through Christ. so to deny this is true(even if highly unlikely) is unscriptual. it all comes down to how bad we really want to achieve a sinless lifestyle. just because we have never met or known anyone to achieve a sinless lifestyle is no reason to discredit it. i have never seen God but i know he exists. if we really want something in life we make a choice. there is always time to do what we really want to do in in our lives. how much time do you spend with God a day? i challenge you to keep a record of how much time you spend each day doing what it is you do every day working , reading books, praying, watching tv, and ect. most times only about 20% of our time is spent with God. what would happen if we spent 75% of our time with God. i wonder what we could accomplish.
God bless
Anything less than 100% is still walking according to the flesh. We are not trying to sin less and less, as desirable and wise as that might be...since we are still missing the big picture of a complete victory in Christ. Rather we are going from a complete trust in God to a partial trust in Him when we sin. The power of the Spirit overcomes the flesh and it's tendencies. So we are seeking to remain (abide) in Christ in order to overcome sin (all sin) rather than trying to deal with individual sins.
Hi Episkopis,
Explaining our understanding on a matter over forums is difficult at best. Hence misunderstanding each other is common. I see this in your comments on my post and likewise in my reading your post.
Can you provide scriptures to support your claims? Perhaps this will help in grasping what your actually trying to say.
Regarding Gal 2:17-19, you said: "This does not mean that we are dead from the judgment and truth of the law. It means we are dead from trying to do the law in our own strength. We are dead to our own efforts. But we are not to show carnality by breaking the law...but show the holiness of Christ by walking in Him and doing what Jesus is doing...perfectly."
I'm curious how "perfectly" your lifestyle is, if that's what you claim?
Carnality (walking in the flesh) is being under the law as it comes from a rebellious desire to attain righteousness by works of the law, thus not submitting to the righteousness of God.
Okay...I'm not sure I'll get to all of your post. You want me to show scipture to support my claims...ok! First I might start by defining sin:
Sin is defined as:
* Transgression - Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3:4 ESV)
*Unrighteousness - All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death. (1 John 5:17 ESV)
*Omission of known duty - So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. (James 4:17 ESV)
*Not from faith - But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:23 ESV)
*Thoughts of foolishness - The devising of folly is sin,
and the scoffer is an abomination to mankind. (Proverbs 24:9ESV)
So sin, while indeed is lawlessness, is not only lawlessness...as I said previously. In fact you could say that all the old laws, all 613ish of them, show what a holy God expects from us...every one of them we don't do perfectly, is sin. Of course now that we are saved in Christ, we don't need to rely on our works of the law to save us.
As far as biblical verses that show that Christians still sin:
The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden. (1 Timothy 5:24-25 ESV)
This is found in a passage that is discussing the selection of Elders...so indeed we are talking of believers here. Paul is telling Timothy it is important to be patient in assessing potential elders, to let the quality of their lives become evident. Because in some it is obvious where they stumble, but others have 'secret' sin that may in fact rule them out of Eldership.
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26 ESV)
This goes to my story of 'habitual' sin. It says "after receiving"...this refers especially to people within the Christian community, who have thus heard the truth. The fact that they “go on sinning deliberately even after receiving knowledge of the truth” indicates that the people in view are not (and never were) genuine believers; that is, these are people who have never genuinely embraced the gospel in a way that has resulted in a life of faith, obedience, and the bearing of fruit. This also is harmonious with 1 John 3:6...that someone who goes on habitually sinning without care, is not saved...the two states cannot exist together. A true Christian must be aware of sin and repentant, even if struggling.
I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,”
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah (Psalm 32:5 ESV)
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment. (Psalm 51:3-4 ESV)
These are Psalms of David. Now, you might think because this is OT, that the work of Christ had not yet been done. I disagree. Over and over we are shown the OT people like Abraham and David were saved for their faith in Jesus. It was forward faith, not backward faith, of the saving event...but faith in God plus His grace is what saved them...just like us. Indeed, we know that David broke the laws, that should have meant his damnation...but we know that is not the case. David was saved like we are, and here he is very clearly confess and repenting of his sins...which are well documented!
Let's see, what else? We know, from scripture that we are to:
* Not serve sin - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (Romans 6:6 ESV)
* Not obey sin - Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
(Romans 6:12 ESV)
* Subdue sin - For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (Romans 6:14-22 ESV)
* Lay sin aside - Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1 ESV)
* Resist sin - In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (Hebrews 12:4 ESV)
Now, do these sound like things we'd even need to know about, let alone worry about or battle against, if we became perfect when Christ substitued his life for ours?
The Bible also gives us things that will help us in our fight against sin:
* Avoid evil companions - Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22 ESV)
* Confess to the Lord - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10 ESV)
* Exercise Love - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. (1 Peter 4:8 ESV)
* Go to the Advocate - My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
(1 John 2:1 ESV)
Again...why would the bible give us these things if sin wasn't still present in a Christian?? Why would the writers give us things to help us fight against sin, if we don't sin??
Okay, I don't have time to answer your whole post, but I will answer this one quickly.
The difference?? The fictional Elder is unrepentant. Me? I know I'm short tempered with my kids. And every single time I snap at them, I'm convicted. And you know what? With the grace of God I'm getting better. I'm gaining more patience and am finding I am more able to show Gods love through my own.
But I well aware of my own sanctification process, I'm progressing along it with both joy and deep conviction of may faults...all forgiven, hence the joy!
I'm really interested about you, however. In all this you have not mentioned once your actions. You say you have no sin...does your life, your attitudes, your actions, back that up? Are you living a life that mirror's Christ's down to the last point? Because if you can't say yes (and no human person can), then you still sin. And this 'denial' of sin within you is actually hurting your walk with Christ. It's stopping the necessary repenting along the way that will actually bring you closer to Him!! You don't want to miss that beauty!
Hi Rach,
I agree long posts are difficult to answer. My apologies. I also don't like dealing with long posts with too many pionts. I'll try to keep them shorter with less points. Like most people I prefer shorter posts to read anyway.
We differ in our understanding of the relevance of those scriptures you quoted for those in Christ.
For example, 1John 1:8 we already dealt with and you know my understanding on it as referring to unbelievers.
Another example is James 4:17, "- So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
So, what is the "right thing"?
Read James 4 from start to get context. Note it speaks to those in spiritual adultery (unbelief). Then its makes a salvation call to them calling on them in James 4:7,8 to submit to God, resist the devil and cleanse their hands and purify their hearts.
Note how in verse 11 it addresses their judging by the law. These are people establishing righteousness by works of the law and thus not submitting to the righteousness of God, by faith.
Clearly to do good, as verse 17 speaks of, is to believe on Jesus. Righteousness by faith.
Another example is Heb 10:26. Remember we understand sin differently. There are numerous warnings in scripture against turning back to works of the law to establish righteousness. Heb 10:26 is another.
To wilfully sin is to turn back to be under the law, such as the foolish Galatians did (Gal 3:3).
To be under the law is to make yourself a transgressor (sinner), Gal 2:18.
If you wilfully continue to be under the law (making yourself a transgressor/sinner) after having the knowledge of the truth (Christ), then your lost, as Heb 10:26-29 shows.
You asked about my lifestyle. Whilst my lifestyle has become better as a Christian it is not perfect.
But, what you overlook is that Christ is in us. Therefore the body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10).
This physical life is never going to be perfect. Nor is any Christian going to profit from doing wrong.
However, this imperfect physical life we live is not what determines if we sin. It's DEAD. Crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).
If our body is dead why do you judge yourself a sinner by its imperfect lifestyle? Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36).
Believe God when He says this.
BTW, your explaination on that "habitual sin" doctrine is ambiguous on what determines habitual. Also, can you explain whether Christian divorcees getting married by churches (adultery, Mark 10:11,12) is habitual sin too.
I agree long posts are difficult to answer. My apologies. I also don't like dealing with long posts with too many pionts. I'll try to keep them shorter with less points. Like most people I prefer shorter posts to read anyway.
We differ in our understanding of the relevance of those scriptures you quoted for those in Christ.
For example, 1John 1:8 we already dealt with and you know my understanding on it as referring to unbelievers.
Another example is James 4:17, "- So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
So, what is the "right thing"?
Read James 4 from start to get context. Note it speaks to those in spiritual adultery (unbelief). Then its makes a salvation call to them calling on them in James 4:7,8 to submit to God, resist the devil and cleanse their hands and purify their hearts.
Note how in verse 11 it addresses their judging by the law. These are people establishing righteousness by works of the law and thus not submitting to the righteousness of God, by faith.
Clearly to do good, as verse 17 speaks of, is to believe on Jesus. Righteousness by faith.
Another example is Heb 10:26. Remember we understand sin differently. There are numerous warnings in scripture against turning back to works of the law to establish righteousness. Heb 10:26 is another.
To wilfully sin is to turn back to be under the law, such as the foolish Galatians did (Gal 3:3).
To be under the law is to make yourself a transgressor (sinner), Gal 2:18.
If you wilfully continue to be under the law (making yourself a transgressor/sinner) after having the knowledge of the truth (Christ), then your lost, as Heb 10:26-29 shows.
You asked about my lifestyle. Whilst my lifestyle has become better as a Christian it is not perfect.
But, what you overlook is that Christ is in us. Therefore the body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10).
This physical life is never going to be perfect. Nor is any Christian going to profit from doing wrong.
However, this imperfect physical life we live is not what determines if we sin. It's DEAD. Crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).
If our body is dead why do you judge yourself a sinner by its imperfect lifestyle? Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36).
Believe God when He says this.
BTW, your explaination on that "habitual sin" doctrine is ambiguous on what determines habitual. Also, can you explain whether Christian divorcees getting married by churches (adultery, Mark 10:11,12) is habitual sin too.
Okay, I'm starting to wonder if I'm just not getting what you're trying to say. You say you still are not perfect...which means you still 'sin' (I'll call it that for want of a better word!)...but that you have no sin! I'm not sure I can follow that round about thinking!
Just to try and clarify my own position a little better...I don't 'judge myself a sinner'...not at all! I call myself redeemed! I know full well that even when I do 'stuff' up, that it is not held against me...I have Christ's righteousness for my own.
But I just can't see how you can ignore our constant need, and the bible's constant calling, to fall at Christ's feet in repentance, again and again. Not for salvation...that we already have...but so that we may grow ever closer to him, growing, learning, becoming more like him, in our love for God and for other people. There is still so much for us to learn, and to do for His glory!
Even with your salvation guaranteed 'in Christ', how can you dismiss those things in your life which you know would disappoint him? Don't you want to stare those things down one by one and with the Spirit's help stamp them out of your life? How can we say 'sure I tend to be impatient, but Jesus took all my sin away...I'm sin free, so I don't need to work on it'?
Anyway, it's getting late and I think I'm beginning to ramble. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, as I'm not exactly sure at this point!
Hi Rach,
I guess you have found, just like I did, that trying to get a message accross on forums can be difficult at the best of times.
When God sees Christians He sees Christ in us. It is in this way we are righteous, without sin,holy, sanctified and perfected.
As for the imperfect physical lives we live it will never be good enough. That is why our old man was crucified on the cross with Christ. Hence now, with Christ in us, the body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10). We accept this by faith. We don't see our bodies dead yet but by faith they are. And if it's dead (because of sin) then "the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4).
Consider Heb 6:1-6 again.
".... not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,.....
[sup] [/sup]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [sup] [/sup]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,[sup] [/sup]if they fall away,[sup] [/sup]to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
This is the only repentance scripture speaks of. Dead works, which is sin, being self-righteousness.
Jesus was asked in John 6:28,29 what works we should do.
He replied "believe on him whom he hath sent"
As a Christian grows in maturity, their lifestyle improves. In understanding the scriptures which state Christians cannot sin/ceased from sin, in no way encourages me to go wild and behave selfishly/badly. I find it's the opposite. I'm more patient/forgiving/loving as I grow in understanding of God's work in my life. It's God who works in us to make positive changes.
Sin separates men from God. Carnality is walking in our own strength and understanding and opinions. When we are empowered by the Spirit we walk the same as Jesus walked. In the OT this walk was called the "highway of holiness". In the New testament it is called "The Way". It is impossible to sin in the Spirit...one must leave the presence of God in order to sin. There are too many verses that explain this to start posting all the evidence....one must do one's own study. I have never seen the listing of verses change anyone's opinion...one must seek God.
Hi Episkopis,
You said " It is impossible to sin in the Spirit...one must leave the presence of God in order to sin."
I agree with this and have been saying such in my posts. However I see we differ in what this means. You suggest physical evidence of this is seen in this imperfect physical world.
Hence my question to you whether you walk a perfect life in the physical and have you ever failed God's grace as a Christian?
You said " It is impossible to sin in the Spirit...one must leave the presence of God in order to sin."
I agree with this and have been saying such in my posts. However I see we differ in what this means. You suggest physical evidence of this is seen in this imperfect physical world.
Hence my question to you whether you walk a perfect life in the physical and have you ever failed God's grace as a Christian?
Hey Haz! It can be tough, can't it! I struggle to get my meaning out clearly, and then I worry I'm reading people completely wrong...it's all about perception, I think...we all see, therefore express, things differently.
I completely agree with with the above sentence...when God looks at us, He sees Christ's life/works/perfection.
Okay...I'm becoming a heap more comfortable discussing this. You're not actually professing to be perfect! Cool...now, to understanding the rest!
I agree with the above sentence as well, but can I ask...what do you do, how do you see, the stumbling that we seem to do constantly? I don't believe this stumbling is held against us...our new heart and the Spirit convicts us and leads us to repentance. But I'm interested in how you perceive it...how do you fit it into the above idea...that our physical body is dead. It may be 'dead' to the outcome...Christ has triumphed...but how do we deal with what our dead, but still present body does??
Okay...here I disagree. One, I don't believe this passage is speaking at all of the topic we are currently on. And two, no, in no way is this the only repentance scripture speaks of.
Conversion...becoming a Christian requires repentance. It requires a repentance of the fallen, sinful nature that we possess...the nature of complete rebellion against God. In that moment we repent of that nature, and of all that that nature has driven us to do through the years. And in that moment we are saved...completely. We are seen as righteous in the eyes of God, and Christ's life is imputed to us.
As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. (2 Corinthians 7:9 ESV)
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.(Revelation 2:5 ESV)
Both of these were written to a Christian church...Christian's who were stumbling. These are just two passages with the word 'repent' in them, and does not even address the content and intent of what the bible talks of as a life lived to please God. While our 'stumbling' may not be held against us, the bible clearly teaches that it is pleasing to God to live in a manner that lives up to what has been given to us. Living like that involves doing things, not doing things, and repenting of what we have done, that we shouldn't have! Our salvation is not dependant on this type of repentance, but it is truly beneficial!
Yes I agree we mature...but one of the ways we grow in maturity is by being convicted of things we have done, repenting of them and putting them to death. It's called sanctification, and it's a life long process of taking up our cross and walking as Christ did...and in doing that, becoming more Christ like, through the power of the Holy Spirit. But how do you propose to 'move forward' if not by turning away from bad behaviours/thoughts/actions, to more god like ones? Isn't that the very nature of forward progress? To improve?
I still can't quite come at the phrasing 'cannot sin/ceased from sin'...simply because it's inaccurate. I get a little better what you are trying to say, but by saying it like this, you give everyone the idea that Christians are perfect. It's this idea that makes non-believers so hostile against us, because they just see a bunch of hypocrites! We do sin...just 'in Christ'...it doesn't matter! It is not counted against us. In many ways, we're not that different from any other person. We're just forgiven! Completely forgiven. And because of Christ's nature 'in' us, we are able to see sin, feel how wrong it is and destructive it is, and turn away from it.
I feel it's very important in how we say this...In the moment we became a Christian, our sin 'vanished' in a very real way. All past, present and future sin of ours was placed on Christ and paid for. Nothing we do will be held against us on the day of judgement. But we are not perfect...which you agree with. Being 'not perfect' means at times we behave in ways that are...let's face it...sinful. The same behaviour in an unsaved person would not only be seen as sinful, but be held against them. We should not...we cannot, go around saying we cannot sin...because the person who just did the exact same thing (and has been told he's a sinner) will look at us and pronounce us arrogant hypocrites. And that is a terrible thing for Jesus' name! No...we need to say to them....yeah, that thing was sinful...the only true difference between us is that my sin does not count against me. I see it, I know it, and because of Jesus I'm saved and I'm free...I have the choice and ability to say to that particular behaviour 'no more'. We show the difference to unsaved people by saying 'no more', by repenting of the behaviour and moving forward free of it. For all the people still enslaved to sin, that kind of repenting (and true repentance is not just saying 'sorry', it's a true sorrow over the behaviour and a visible change in attitude against it) will be a powerful testimony to the work of Christ in our lives.
Hi Rach,
It's good to see that we agree on much now that preconceptions and the limitations of forum communications is being addressed.
Regarding some sticking points, I'll discuss these below.
You said: " I still can't quite come at the phrasing 'cannot sin/ceased from sin'...simply because it's inaccurate."
But it is accurate. Scripture confirms it.
"freed from sin", Rom 7:7, John 8:36
"ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9
You even confirmed it when you said: "when God looks at us, He sees Christ's life/works/perfection."
If God sees us this way then we also should see ourselves this way too. It's accurate.
However it's not an applicable description for this imperfect physical life we live. But remember, our body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
Your concern about the hostile view that Christians are hypocrites is not based on Christians claiming to be without sin. After-all, the traditional language/view amongst christians is that they do sin.
The hostile view held by non-Christians is more to do with the judgemental criticisms/accusations made by Christians against the lifestyle of non-believers. This is seen as hypocritical considering the lifestyle of many Christians.
Instead of judging/accusing non-believers of sin due to their lifestyle, Christians should preach the gospel. How God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Remember it's the sin of unbelief that the world is convicted of (John 16:9).
Anyone who turns to Christ, then God will work in their lives to build them up.
You quoted 2Cor 7:9 regarding repentance. But consider verse 10 also to see it's context.
"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. [sup] [/sup]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation,"
Here we see it refers to repentance to salvation.
Likewise Rev 2:25
"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent"
What are those works we did when we first became Christians?
"believe on him whom he hath sent" John 6:29
The Galatians are an example a church that needed to repent and turn back to their first works.
Gal 3:1-4
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?[sup] [/sup]This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?[sup] [/sup]Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Hi Rach,
You asked: "but how do we deal with what our dead, but still present body does??"
I guess that's where the answer Jesus gave in Matt 18:21,22 comes in.
"Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”[sup] [/sup]Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."
God knows how weak and imperfect this physical life is. And just as He forgave us so we should also do likewise.
How we deal with this imperfect physical life is to trust God and let Him work in each of us, whatever stage we are at in our Christian walk. We can't change in our own strength. But the more we let go and trust in God, He will make the changes in us.
But remember that the real issue is that we endure to the end, believing on Jesus (2Tim 2:12, Mark 13:13)
It's good to see that we agree on much now that preconceptions and the limitations of forum communications is being addressed.
Regarding some sticking points, I'll discuss these below.
You said: " I still can't quite come at the phrasing 'cannot sin/ceased from sin'...simply because it's inaccurate."
But it is accurate. Scripture confirms it.
"freed from sin", Rom 7:7, John 8:36
"ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9
You even confirmed it when you said: "when God looks at us, He sees Christ's life/works/perfection."
If God sees us this way then we also should see ourselves this way too. It's accurate.
However it's not an applicable description for this imperfect physical life we live. But remember, our body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
Your concern about the hostile view that Christians are hypocrites is not based on Christians claiming to be without sin. After-all, the traditional language/view amongst christians is that they do sin.
The hostile view held by non-Christians is more to do with the judgemental criticisms/accusations made by Christians against the lifestyle of non-believers. This is seen as hypocritical considering the lifestyle of many Christians.
Instead of judging/accusing non-believers of sin due to their lifestyle, Christians should preach the gospel. How God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Remember it's the sin of unbelief that the world is convicted of (John 16:9).
Anyone who turns to Christ, then God will work in their lives to build them up.
You quoted 2Cor 7:9 regarding repentance. But consider verse 10 also to see it's context.
"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. [sup] [/sup]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation,"
Here we see it refers to repentance to salvation.
Likewise Rev 2:25
"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent"
What are those works we did when we first became Christians?
"believe on him whom he hath sent" John 6:29
The Galatians are an example a church that needed to repent and turn back to their first works.
Gal 3:1-4
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?[sup] [/sup]This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?[sup] [/sup]Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Hi Rach,
You asked: "but how do we deal with what our dead, but still present body does??"
I guess that's where the answer Jesus gave in Matt 18:21,22 comes in.
"Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”[sup] [/sup]Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."
God knows how weak and imperfect this physical life is. And just as He forgave us so we should also do likewise.
How we deal with this imperfect physical life is to trust God and let Him work in each of us, whatever stage we are at in our Christian walk. We can't change in our own strength. But the more we let go and trust in God, He will make the changes in us.
But remember that the real issue is that we endure to the end, believing on Jesus (2Tim 2:12, Mark 13:13)
Believing in Jesus without the power to walk as Jesus is pointless in regards eternity. It might make someone feel good to do so. But why stop at a romantic view of Jesus? Why not enter into Hos grace and become a disciple? Why not? The cost is far too much...we want without surrendering our lives. We want life ADDED to our lives rather than experiencing a death.
This is not reality. God always sees our true condition. It should be...when the world sees us, they are seeing the reality of God's perfecting work in men. WE are to be God's righteousness...not we cannot be indwelt by the Spirit so Jesus was instead of us.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This is completely misunderstood so it is denied.
Netchaplain
Ordained Chaplain
The most efficient means of Bible study is using a good Bible Commentary. Below is a sample of John Gill's which is free online to use.
Doth not commit sin; does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it; and that for this reason.
Doth not commit sin; does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it; and that for this reason.
The truth is that the Holy Spirit is required both to understand the scriptures and empower a follower to experience what is written on the pages.
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