There's a big difference between being 'sin free' and being 'free from sin'....
And another great subject is "Do you have sin consciousness or Christ consciousness?"
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There's a big difference between being 'sin free' and being 'free from sin'....
Hi Rach,
Rom 7:17,18
"[sup] [/sup]But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [sup] [/sup]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells"
Man needed a Savior.
Rom 7:24,25
"[sup] [/sup]O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [sup] [/sup]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
How are we delivered?
Believing on Jesus.
Rom 6:5-7
"For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, [sup] [/sup]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.[sup] [/sup]For he who has died has been freed from sin"
Rom 8:10
"[sup] [/sup]And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin"
Rom 8:9
"[sup] [/sup]you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit"
This is how we are free from sin; ceased from sin (1Pet 4:1); cannot sin (1John 3:9). It's Christ in us that God sees. And in Christ there is no sin (1John 3:5).
I am fully aware that in Christ our sins are 'no more'...that when God looks at as He sees only the righteousness of Jesus. But biblical passages combined with simple fact, tells me that Christians still sin. If you, or any other Christian tells me they don't sin, quite frankly, I will not believe you...sorry. To not sin any more, means you are now perfect...which clearly you are not...no one is!! You cannot tell me that you never think an unfavourable thought, or ignore someone in need...basically that you always think, say and do the perfect thing.
Biblically, I would ask why we are told these things:
*To repent when we sin (that would kind of imply that we do sin)
*To encourage others not to sin, and to point out sin in a brother ('brother' is a fellow Christian, as you know, which implies that we still sin)
*To fight against sin in our walk of sanctification
Being free from sin means we now have to choice to turn away from sin...we need not be enslaved to it. We have the Spirit within us, helping us to repent from our sins and put them to death. This is not a one time deal...you're deceiving yourself if you think it is. Honestly, take a step back and really take a look at yourself...are you perfect? Would your kids say you're perfect, you spouse, your parents?? Until we are freed from this sinful body we will need to keep walking that walk...of learning, growing and repenting. That is how we 'grow' in Christ-likeness. If it happened in an instant (like salvation) it wouldn't be a process and we wouldn't be able to 'grow', which implies a constant learning and improving process.
You can't just take a passage or two that talks of having no sin, and presume that means you're perfect. And I would perhaps point out that your verses above actually talk of being freed from sin...not being sin free. As I said before...big difference!!
You say that 1 John 3:9 tells us that we 'have no sin', but how do you reconcile that with what he says just a few passages earlier?
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10 ESV)
It does not say that if we confess our sins that Jesus will make us perfect. It says he will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We know this means that in God's eyes we attain Christ's perfection. It does not give any indication that we are made completely sin free...that we cannot sin because it is simply impossible. Only Jesus can live that life...that's why He had to impute that righteousness to us...even now, even 'saved', we could not live that perfect life.
Indeed, knowing now that to say we have no sin is a sin, how do we approach the verses you gave? Let me put down a brief passage from a commentary, since it might be more authoritative and learned than just my opinion:
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning." We must not water down statements like this; the Christian has no business with sin and must never be complacent about it, even about occasional sin. But we should also notice that the present tense in Greek often has a continuous force and this appears to be significant here: 'No-one who continually lives in him makes a habit of sinning; and again No-one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. John is not writing about individual acts of sin, but about habitual attitudes. John has already repudiated the doctrine of sinless perfection (1:8, 10) and we must not interpret these words in such a way as to contradict those. But we must see that sin and the Christian are radically opposed. "John is arguing rather the incongruity than the impossibility of sin in the Christian" (J.R.W Stott, The Letters of John)
Hi Rach,
How do you define sin?
Definitions are important if we are to understand each others message.
If you say it's transgression of the law (1John 3:4), are Christians under the law? If not then there is no sin.
“whatever the law says it says to those who are under it” (Rom 3:19).
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me FREE from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)
"if you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT under the law." (Gal 5:18)
“the law was NOT made for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN)” (Rom 4:15).
If you define sin as unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9), Christians believe on Jesus hence no sin.
If you define sin as unrighteousness (1John 5:17), Christians are righteous in Christ, hence no sin here either.
You refer to 1John 1:8-10 to say Christians still sin. What "sin" do you think it speaks of if it refers to Christians?
I see 1John 1 differently.
Reading the chapter from the start note it's context.
1John 1:2,3
"the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— [sup] [/sup]that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ."
Note here how eternal life is being declared so that others also may have fellowship. It's the gospel being declared here to unbelievers.
Note also 1John 1:6
"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness (without Christ), we lie and do not practice the truth"
Again, referring to unbelievers here.
1John 1 speaks to unbelievers.
If it referred to Christians what "sin" do you think it refers to?
Consider Rom 3:25:
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST"
As it's only past sins that were forgiven, clearly there is no more sin as it was finally dealt with. Any Christian who turns back to sin (unbelief/unrighteousness/works of the law) is lost and is like a dog returning to it's own vomit (2Pet 2:22).
You quoted Stott's commentary on 1John 3:6-9. He spoke of habitual attitudes of sin. This is ambiguous. He offers no definition of sin and also gives no measure of what determines habitual sin.
For example you said, regarding your understanding of sin: "You cannot tell me that you never think an unfavourable thought, or ignore someone in need."
How often have you, or any Christian, been guilty of this? Often enough that it can be considered habitual by J.R.W Stott? How often is an offence habitual? Is it 7x70?
I know of no scripture which confirms the habitual sin doctrine.
Consider the criminal on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". He was saved even though he was a criminal till the day he died. He was righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin when he believed on Jesus. That day he was with Christ in paradise.
Dying on the cross next to Jesus, he had no opportunity to (using your words) "'grow', which implies a constant learning and improving process".
I understand repentance differently than you do. You describe it in terms of repenting every time you behave badly. This is not repentance if you are offending over and over again.
Consider Heb 6:1-6 on repentance.
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [sup] [/sup]And this we will do if God permits.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [sup] [/sup]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Clearly repentance is a once only event. Repenting of dead works of self-righteousness and instead turning back to God, submitting to His righteousness, by faith.
I agree that in the physical we will not see perfection. I'm not looking at the physical. As Christ is in us the body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
I'm looking at Christ in us as believers.
Gal 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;"
2cor 5:16,17
"Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.[sup] [/sup]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
There's a big difference between being 'sin free' and being 'free from sin'....
Consider the criminal on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". He was saved even though he was a criminal till the day he died. He was righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin when he believed on Jesus. That day he was with Christ in paradise.
Dying on the cross next to Jesus, he had no opportunity to (using your words) "'grow', which implies a constant learning and improving process".
are christians sinners?
it all comes down to how you look at it. if you look at it from the view of have we ever done wrong the yes we are all sinners. if you look at it from the point of are we slaves to sin then no we are not. we are given grace to allow us to grow in the Lord. as we grow in the Lord we should be sinning less and less. for example i used to sin repeatedly by cussing and at least every few minutes but now i have no problem with that all. i can now go several hours without sinning and even longer if try really hard. what i am saying is that there should come a time that as you are growing in the Lord that we should not have to sin for 5 minutes and then it should go to 10 minutes then and hour then a day then a week then a month then a year then eventually we should never sin again. i have never known anyone who reached this area of never sinning again but the word teaches that all things are possible with God and that i can do all things through Christ. so to deny this is true(even if highly unlikely) is unscriptual. it all comes down to how bad we really want to achieve a sinless lifestyle. just because we have never met or known anyone to achieve a sinless lifestyle is no reason to discredit it. i have never seen God but i know he exists. if we really want something in life we make a choice. there is always time to do what we really want to do in in our lives. how much time do you spend with God a day? i challenge you to keep a record of how much time you spend each day doing what it is you do every day working , reading books, praying, watching tv, and ect. most times only about 20% of our time is spent with God. what would happen if we spent 75% of our time with God. i wonder what we could accomplish.
God bless
A Christian is one who is learning to abide in Christ and walk only by the Spirit. One cannot sin when one does this. But in our time the superficiality of the gospel message presents a portion of the truth but without the power of the gospel. So it is not commonly understood in modern times that one does not sin when filled with the Spirit. Spiritual "highs" are rather sought to convince one that they are experiencing something other than just a carnal reaction to an out side stimulus. The depth of the Spirit is then never plumbed out and these stay always as they were...in the flesh. Carnality rules!!! ;(
How so? We must be careful of not playing the popular game of semantics that leads people to miss the implications of the New Testament. The bible doesn't mean what it means????
OK This is going too far with the idea that salvation is a cookie cutter experience that leads to the same outcome every time. Salvation is not a technique or system.
While it is good to not just throw away the victory over sin that abiding in Christ provides...one must be careful to not try to explain away the power of the gospel by making unreality fill in the gaps of understanding on the matter.
The power of the gospel makes one walk exactly as Jesus did on earth. No difference. As Jesus IS so are WE in this world. So the victory over sin is not one of God turning a blind eye to our antics in the flesh...NO!!! Rather we walk by grace and faith...not by what the eye sees. We show we are not under the law by actually fulfilling the spiritual requirements of the law...not ignoring the law.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
This does not mean that we are dead from the judgment and truth of the law. It means we are dead from trying to do the law in our own strength. We are dead to our own efforts. But we are not to show carnality by breaking the law...but show the holiness of Christ by walking in Him and doing what Jesus is doing...perfectly.
There are many schemes that people espouse that seek to minimize what Jesus did. Some write off the law as an unattainable standard (What? obey God?) while others seek to make the law of no effect for Christians since we are to be dead to (effects) the law (can you say lawless?). But of course both these positions are heritical (divisive).
Anything but believe in the truth...
The truth is that the law is a standard that no man walking in his own power can perform consistently. So the law condemns sin in the flesh. That is good. But Jesus Christ has fulfilled these requirements and now He seeks to fulfill these requirements IN US!!!! That is the power of the gospel...that we walk in His resurrection life showing forth the power of the life to come and this through a perfect obedience that is made possible through grace. Anything less is false.
So rather than lowering the standard to make more people walk in...we are to uphold the standard of God (even to our own hurt) and look to Him for the needed empowerment to fulfill the law. The law is holy. Only the holy ones in Christ will fulfill it. THAT is our witness that Jesus is alive in this world...that we walk just as He walked. Overcoming sin with Jesus is our calling. Few today even understand this calling let alone actually walk in Christ to do it. That is the sign of the times. We are in the time of Laodicea where we have lost all semblance of reality and truth.
One would think the bible said...For the law of sin and life has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Hi Rach,
We differ on our definitions of sin.
Your lack of scriptural support for your claim that Christians still sin (in spite of the cross) leaves me unconvinced. You also have not addressed those scriptures which clearly state that Christians do not sin. Your one attempt, in quoting Stott's commentary, was unsupported with scripture. Scripture confirms scripture, and Stott's doctrine on habitual sin is lacking any scriptural support.
You suggested an example of habitual sin with an Elder in a church. You claimed he was unsaved because of habitual sin.
But, what of the real life habitual behavior we see in Christians?
Examples:
1: YOU said: "But still we snap at our children, growl at the dude who cut us off in traffic, and become self righteously offended at other people. These are sins."
Perhaps you are including yourself in this statement, but regardless, is this not "habitual sin" by your definition? Are such people unsaved just like that Elder in the church example you gave?
Hi Rach,
I agree long posts are difficult to answer. My apologies. I also don't like dealing with long posts with too many pionts. I'll try to keep them shorter with less points. Like most people I prefer shorter posts to read anyway.
We differ in our understanding of the relevance of those scriptures you quoted for those in Christ.
For example, 1John 1:8 we already dealt with and you know my understanding on it as referring to unbelievers.
Another example is James 4:17, "- So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
So, what is the "right thing"?
Read James 4 from start to get context. Note it speaks to those in spiritual adultery (unbelief). Then its makes a salvation call to them calling on them in James 4:7,8 to submit to God, resist the devil and cleanse their hands and purify their hearts.
Note how in verse 11 it addresses their judging by the law. These are people establishing righteousness by works of the law and thus not submitting to the righteousness of God, by faith.
Clearly to do good, as verse 17 speaks of, is to believe on Jesus. Righteousness by faith.
Another example is Heb 10:26. Remember we understand sin differently. There are numerous warnings in scripture against turning back to works of the law to establish righteousness. Heb 10:26 is another.
To wilfully sin is to turn back to be under the law, such as the foolish Galatians did (Gal 3:3).
To be under the law is to make yourself a transgressor (sinner), Gal 2:18.
If you wilfully continue to be under the law (making yourself a transgressor/sinner) after having the knowledge of the truth (Christ), then your lost, as Heb 10:26-29 shows.
You asked about my lifestyle. Whilst my lifestyle has become better as a Christian it is not perfect.
But, what you overlook is that Christ is in us. Therefore the body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10).
This physical life is never going to be perfect. Nor is any Christian going to profit from doing wrong.
However, this imperfect physical life we live is not what determines if we sin. It's DEAD. Crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6).
If our body is dead why do you judge yourself a sinner by its imperfect lifestyle? Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36).
Believe God when He says this.
BTW, your explaination on that "habitual sin" doctrine is ambiguous on what determines habitual. Also, can you explain whether Christian divorcees getting married by churches (adultery, Mark 10:11,12) is habitual sin too.
Okay, I'm starting to wonder if I'm just not getting what you're trying to say. You say you still are not perfect...which means you still 'sin' (I'll call it that for want of a better word!)...but that you have no sin! I'm not sure I can follow that round about thinking!
Just to try and clarify my own position a little better...I don't 'judge myself a sinner'...not at all! I call myself redeemed! I know full well that even when I do 'stuff' up, that it is not held against me...I have Christ's righteousness for my own.
But I just can't see how you can ignore our constant need, and the bible's constant calling, to fall at Christ's feet in repentance, again and again. Not for salvation...that we already have...but so that we may grow ever closer to him, growing, learning, becoming more like him, in our love for God and for other people. There is still so much for us to learn, and to do for His glory!
Even with your salvation guaranteed 'in Christ', how can you dismiss those things in your life which you know would disappoint him? Don't you want to stare those things down one by one and with the Spirit's help stamp them out of your life? How can we say 'sure I tend to be impatient, but Jesus took all my sin away...I'm sin free, so I don't need to work on it'?
Anyway, it's getting late and I think I'm beginning to ramble. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, as I'm not exactly sure at this point!
Hi Episkopis,
Explaining our understanding on a matter over forums is difficult at best. Hence misunderstanding each other is common. I see this in your comments on my post and likewise in my reading your post.
Can you provide scriptures to support your claims? Perhaps this will help in grasping what your actually trying to say.
Regarding Gal 2:17-19, you said: "This does not mean that we are dead from the judgment and truth of the law. It means we are dead from trying to do the law in our own strength. We are dead to our own efforts. But we are not to show carnality by breaking the law...but show the holiness of Christ by walking in Him and doing what Jesus is doing...perfectly."
I'm curious how "perfectly" your lifestyle is, if that's what you claim?
Carnality (walking in the flesh) is being under the law as it comes from a rebellious desire to attain righteousness by works of the law, thus not submitting to the righteousness of God.
Hi Rach,
I guess you have found, just like I did, that trying to get a message accross on forums can be difficult at the best of times.
When God sees Christians He sees Christ in us. It is in this way we are righteous, without sin,holy, sanctified and perfected.
As for the imperfect physical lives we live it will never be good enough. That is why our old man was crucified on the cross with Christ. Hence now, with Christ in us, the body is DEAD because of sin (Rom 8:10). We accept this by faith. We don't see our bodies dead yet but by faith they are. And if it's dead (because of sin) then "the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4).
Consider Heb 6:1-6 again.
".... not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,.....
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [sup] [/sup]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,[sup] [/sup]if they fall away,[sup] [/sup]to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
This is the only repentance scripture speaks of. Dead works, which is sin, being self-righteousness.
Jesus was asked in John 6:28,29 what works we should do.
He replied "believe on him whom he hath sent"
As a Christian grows in maturity, their lifestyle improves. In understanding the scriptures which state Christians cannot sin/ceased from sin, in no way encourages me to go wild and behave selfishly/badly. I find it's the opposite. I'm more patient/forgiving/loving as I grow in understanding of God's work in my life. It's God who works in us to make positive changes.
Hi Rach,
It's good to see that we agree on much now that preconceptions and the limitations of forum communications is being addressed.
Regarding some sticking points, I'll discuss these below.
You said: " I still can't quite come at the phrasing 'cannot sin/ceased from sin'...simply because it's inaccurate."
But it is accurate. Scripture confirms it.
"freed from sin", Rom 7:7, John 8:36
"ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9
You even confirmed it when you said: "when God looks at us, He sees Christ's life/works/perfection."
If God sees us this way then we also should see ourselves this way too. It's accurate.
However it's not an applicable description for this imperfect physical life we live. But remember, our body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).
Your concern about the hostile view that Christians are hypocrites is not based on Christians claiming to be without sin. After-all, the traditional language/view amongst christians is that they do sin.
The hostile view held by non-Christians is more to do with the judgemental criticisms/accusations made by Christians against the lifestyle of non-believers. This is seen as hypocritical considering the lifestyle of many Christians.
Instead of judging/accusing non-believers of sin due to their lifestyle, Christians should preach the gospel. How God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Remember it's the sin of unbelief that the world is convicted of (John 16:9).
Anyone who turns to Christ, then God will work in their lives to build them up.
You quoted 2Cor 7:9 regarding repentance. But consider verse 10 also to see it's context.
"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. [sup] [/sup]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation,"
Here we see it refers to repentance to salvation.
Likewise Rev 2:25
"Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent"
What are those works we did when we first became Christians?
"believe on him whom he hath sent" John 6:29
The Galatians are an example a church that needed to repent and turn back to their first works.
Gal 3:1-4
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?[sup] [/sup]This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?[sup] [/sup]Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Hi Rach,
You asked: "but how do we deal with what our dead, but still present body does??"
I guess that's where the answer Jesus gave in Matt 18:21,22 comes in.
"Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”[sup] [/sup]Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven."
God knows how weak and imperfect this physical life is. And just as He forgave us so we should also do likewise.
How we deal with this imperfect physical life is to trust God and let Him work in each of us, whatever stage we are at in our Christian walk. We can't change in our own strength. But the more we let go and trust in God, He will make the changes in us.
But remember that the real issue is that we endure to the end, believing on Jesus (2Tim 2:12, Mark 13:13)
"when God looks at us, He sees Christ's life/works/perfection."
The most efficient means of Bible study is using a good Bible Commentary. Below is a sample of John Gill's which is free online to use.
Doth not commit sin; does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it; and that for this reason.