Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?
- Thread starter Robert Gwin
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Of course, they have to reject agency to make their worldview appear credible.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Now that made me spit my coffee....
of course that doesn't apply to you and the rest of Christendom now does it......?How is the Greek word "proskyneō" ( rendered "worship" in most Bibles) to be understood in the contexts in which it is used in the Bible?
How does Strongs define this word?
"From πρός (G4314) and a probable derivative of κύων (G2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
- to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
- among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
- in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
- to the Jewish high priests
- to God
- to Christ
- to heavenly beings
- to demons"
- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
So it is context that determines how "proskyneō" is to be rendered......you don't think biased "beliefs" can make it say what it never did?
When the magi came to Herod what did they say...?
"Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship G4352 Him.” (Matt2:2)
Did these Babylonian astrologers come to worship someone "born to be King of the Jews"? Or was it their custom to give gifts to royal children? They did not want to "worship" Jesus...they came to do "obeisance" to him.....this is respectful honor.
What about satan when he tempted Jesus with "all the kingdoms of the world"?
"and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship G4352 me.” (Matt 4:9)
Again, its the same word, but we know that satan sees himself as a 'god", (2 Cor 4:3-4) so he was asking Jesus to give him what belongs only to his Father......submission and service.
What did Jesus reply?
"Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP G4352 THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
What other examples are there?
"And a man with leprosy came to Him and bowed G4352 down G4352 before Him, and said, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”
Here "proskyneō" is translated "bowed down before him"....not worship.
In Jesus parable about the unforgiving slave it says...
“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated G4352 himself G4352 before G4352 him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’" (Matt 18:26)
Was the slave worshipping his Master? Same word.
The Greek word pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (above) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant.
You get so carried away with what you want to believe that you cannot see the context of what is written in relation to the whole Bible.
Jesus was never "worshipped" because he never once said he was God....he told the devil that it is only "the LORD (Yahweh) your God you must worship", so any reference to Jesus being "worshipped" is false. He was the recipient of reverential honor as "the son of God"....that is "obeisance".
FYI....in the British judicial system adopted by the Australian government in early times, the judges were called "Your Worship" because of the meaning of that word in the Bible.....it was wrongly translated of course, because no one was to worship anyone but Yahweh.....so, as reflected in the American judicial system, the judge is referred to as "Your Honor" which is true to the meaning of that word. They don't use that expression in Australia anymore.
I marvel at the stunted way you interpret scripture.....but I'm not surprised at all at what passes right in front of your nose and you just can't see it.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
BLah, Blah,BLah. Why do we worship Jesus?Now that made me spit my coffee....
How is the Greek word "proskyneō" ( rendered "worship" in most Bibles) to be understood in the contexts in which it is used in the Bible?
How does Strongs define this word?
"From πρός (G4314) and a probable derivative of κύων (G2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
- to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
- among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
- in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
- to the Jewish high priests
- to God
- to Christ
- to heavenly beings
- to demons"
So it is context that determines how "proskyneō" is to be rendered......you don't think biased "beliefs" can make it say what it never did?
When the magi came to Herod what did they say...?
"Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship G4352 Him.” (Matt2:2)
Did these Babylonian astrologers come to worship someone "born to be King of the Jews"? Or was it their custom to give gifts to royal children? They did not want to "worship" Jesus...they came to do "obeisance" to him.....this is respectful honor.
What about satan when he tempted Jesus with "all the kingdoms of the world"?
"and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship G4352 me.” (Matt 4:9)
Again, its the same word, but we know that satan sees himself as a 'god", (2 Cor 4:3-4) so he was asking Jesus to give him what belongs only to his Father......submission and service.
What did Jesus reply?
"Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP G4352 THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
What other examples are there?
"And a man with leprosy came to Him and bowed G4352 down G4352 before Him, and said, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”
Here "proskyneō" is translated "bowed down before him"....not worship.
In Jesus parable about the unforgiving slave it says...
“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated G4352 himself G4352 before G4352 him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’" (Matt 18:26)
Was the slave worshipping his Master? Same word.
The Greek word pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (above) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant.
You get so carried away with what you want to believe that you cannot see the context of what is written in relation to the whole Bible.
Jesus was never "worshipped" because he never once said he was God....he told the devil that it is only "the LORD (Yahweh) your God you must worship", so any reference to Jesus being "worshipped" is false. He was the recipient of reverential honor as "the son of God"....that is "obeisance".
FYI....in the British judicial system adopted by the Australian government in early times, the judges were called "Your Worship" because of the meaning of that word in the Bible.....it was wrongly translated of course, because no one was to worship anyone but Yahweh.....so, as reflected in the American judicial system, the judge is referred to as "Your Honor" which is true to the meaning of that word. They don't use that expression in Australia anymore.
I marvel at the stunted way you interpret scripture.....but I'm not surprised at all at what passes right in front of your nose and you just can't see it.
John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
If you only give "obeisance" to the Father, than yes we do it to the Son. Otherwise your argument has more holes than a colander!
Also as Jesus is God the Son yes we worship HIm.
also as Obeisance is a synonym for worship you are splitting hairs to the nth degree!
Angel Faith
Active Member
They do answer the question with that explanation don't you think?
Given their pov regarding Jesus the Christ they are not Christians.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Too funny! Parsing begotten to mean not created, person different from a Being, dead with partially dead, these folks lament untwisting words to their normal meaning have the audacity to project others do what they do.Now that made me spit my coffee....
Angel Faith
Active Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Please tell me where it says in scripture to “worship” Jesus?
Giving honor to the son of God, as one gives honor to the one who sent him, in no way says we must “worship” both equally. (Again we see the Holy Spirit missing in this equation.)
What did Jesus himself say with regards to how we obtain eternal life?
John 17:3 KJV....
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Jesus calls his Father “the only true God” without including himself, but simply says that his God “sent” him.
Just read what the Bible says....is this a difficult concept? These are two (not three) completely different beings who operate separately, but one acts under the authority of the superior one in the relationship.
There is no such person in scripture.....the Bible never once mentions “God the Son”...the Catholic church invented him. In every instance, Jesus is always called “the son of God”....please show me where the Bible says otherwise.
If you have “God the Father” ( mentioned in scripture) and you have “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” (never once mentioned in scripture) then you worship three “gods” and are in clear breach of the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
Context has been shown to you in many instances, yet here you are vainly arguing against what you own Bible states.
“Obeisance” in its definition is a physical act of bowing in recognition of encountering a person whose position warrants it. In Bible times “obeisance” was a common thing....a custom of deference...an act of humility.
Please learn the difference between “theology” and Bible truth, because as your arguments stand, you don’t appear to understand the very important difference. Your teachers have been in error for centuries....and it is your wish to carry on their error. Which do you prefer?.....an unpopular truth or an old and comfortable lie? That choice is yours. I made my choice 50 years ago.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What is a “Christian”?
By definition it is a footstep follower of Jesus Christ.....so anyone who accepts Jesus as “the son of God” and values his sacrifice, endeavoring to live their life according to the example set by God’s son, and showing by their conduct that they follow ALL of his teachings.....these can call themselves a “Christian”.
They will be found to be of good moral character, not idol worshippers, not involved in worldly politics, preachers and teachers of God’s word, defenders of truth.....even though it would mean being “hated” by those who beg to differ. (John 15:18-21)
They would also obey Christ’s last command to them...
Matthew 28:18-20...NLT
“Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Since Jesus was “given all authority in heaven and on earth”....this means that he could not be God because it was his God who gave him that authority. God can hardly authorise himself.
“Christians” have always been a hated minority because of who it is that opposes them. They are special targets of the great deceiver who has “the whole world” under his control. (1John 5:19) The “weeds” he created as a counterfeit, have infiltrated into every corner of the world, divided and disunited in all the ways that Christ said they should not be. As it was in the first century, those who claimed to worship the same God are the greatest opposers.
So by their fruits we would be able to see who are a united global brotherhood, carrying out Christ’s command to preach and teach, making new disciples, (Matthew 10:11-14)......and who are a disunited rabble, up to their necks in supporting the world, and not living up to their claims to be Christ’s disciples.
We all have choices and we need to make then now, before the curtain is brought down on this disgusting world alienated from God in more ways than we can count. The “end of the age” is upon us.
I encourage all to look into the Jehovahs Witnesses doctrine known as, Theocratic warfare doctrine.
Please search this out and study it. This is a doctrine that even some newer Jehovahs witnesses have not been allowed to know about. It teaches that JW when evangelizing can lie to non-JW!!! JW cannot be trusted.
Please search this out and study it. This is a doctrine that even some newer Jehovahs witnesses have not been allowed to know about. It teaches that JW when evangelizing can lie to non-JW!!! JW cannot be trusted.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong again! they honor Jesus even as they honor the Father! It is that simple. There is no secret code that some faithful and discreet slave needs to unearth and reinterpret.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
But of course the same word as worship used here the unfaithful and decrepit slave class reinterprets to try to reduce it.
John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Revelation 7:10
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
these should be as clear as the nose on yo0ur face! But as long as you wear the Watchtower blinders, you will continue to accept the twisted words of the Watchtower which condemns them and will drag you to the lake of fire as well. but I would spare you.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I'll leave these there as well as a testimony to the fact that not one of them say we are to worship Jesus. They mention "honor", "blessing" and "glory" but not "worship".
And yes, the angels do not "worship" the one whom they know is "the son of God"....even the demons acknowledge that....(Luke 4:41)
What they render to their commander in Chief is "obeisance"....honor but not worship.
Angels are fellow servants of Yahweh....all "sons of God" are in his service. Jesus is also called God's "holy servant". (Acts 4:27)
The scriptures you have been given are as plain as the nose on your face, but the mirror is not giving you an accurate reflection.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I noticed that also. The false equating honor with worship shows how Scripture undermines their dogma.
FYI:
There is NO DENOMINATION in the word of God, NONE!
Jewish religion, now known as Judaism is formed per the line of the the last son of Israel who remained somewhat faithful to God. Only the Jews and proselytes practice it.
There is ONLY one church in the word of God and it is the Bride of Christ, the body of which he is the HEAD!
The RCC was formed by the Roman empire to control the so called" christians" after Christ' death.
Until the Reformation of Protest against the Catholic pagan religion, there were only family cults and cults.
After the reformation,everyone had a psalm, had a prophecy ect and their own private interpretations to which they pulled ppl away from one heretical church doctrine to another form of the same!
Not one so called denomination can be found in scripture but are so called after the names of their founding fathers.
Then there are the organized large cults, started by mankind whom received visions,words, books and
propaganda and heresies from whatever spirit or god came to them..........
The words Christian & Christendom now are a bigger joke or slur than it was when first used in jest and disgust by the Romans! Now if any say I'm a Christian whether they worship trees or whatever are just accepted. I imagine it makes God want to vomit .
So keep saying and thinking, I'm a _________ and that is just WHAT you are, a sect,cult, or denomination. However what we are to be is believers of God, followers of his word, and his adopted children by grace through faith.
There is NO DENOMINATION in the word of God, NONE!
Jewish religion, now known as Judaism is formed per the line of the the last son of Israel who remained somewhat faithful to God. Only the Jews and proselytes practice it.
There is ONLY one church in the word of God and it is the Bride of Christ, the body of which he is the HEAD!
The RCC was formed by the Roman empire to control the so called" christians" after Christ' death.
Until the Reformation of Protest against the Catholic pagan religion, there were only family cults and cults.
After the reformation,everyone had a psalm, had a prophecy ect and their own private interpretations to which they pulled ppl away from one heretical church doctrine to another form of the same!
Not one so called denomination can be found in scripture but are so called after the names of their founding fathers.
Then there are the organized large cults, started by mankind whom received visions,words, books and
propaganda and heresies from whatever spirit or god came to them..........
The words Christian & Christendom now are a bigger joke or slur than it was when first used in jest and disgust by the Romans! Now if any say I'm a Christian whether they worship trees or whatever are just accepted. I imagine it makes God want to vomit .
So keep saying and thinking, I'm a _________ and that is just WHAT you are, a sect,cult, or denomination. However what we are to be is believers of God, followers of his word, and his adopted children by grace through faith.
You are part of your own Imaginary CHURCH and you can imagine it the way you like ... It is just that: your own personal fantasy.
God have had ALWAYS an organized people with humans organizers; Not matter if you like it or not, today iit is the same. You do have to look where it is; follow the signals.
God have had ALWAYS an organized people with humans organizers; Not matter if you like it or not, today iit is the same. You do have to look where it is; follow the signals.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
That’s not true. There were those who were casting out demons - in Jesus name - that were not part of the Apostles Jesus chose.
The Apostles wanted Jesus to rebuke this denominational group, acting without express direction from the Messiah. Do you recall what Jesus said about that?
Do they meet the requirements found in the Bible Peter? Do they obey Jesus' words at Mat 4:10?
If you start a personal conversation with me Peter, I will go more in-depth than I will here.
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