Are Some Unable To Be Renewed To Repentance?

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Paul Christensen

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This is impossible.
It is, because I personally know of a man who was a fully Spirit-filled Christian in a Charismatic church, and then because "of the hypocrites in the church" turned right away from Christ and declared himself an atheist who wants to go to hell because that's where his unbelieving wife is going.
 

Waiting on him

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It is, because I personally know of a man who was a fully Spirit-filled Christian in a Charismatic church, and then because "of the hypocrites in the church" turned right away from Christ and declared himself an atheist who wants to go to hell because that's where his unbelieving wife is going.
How do you know he was converted?
 

Enow

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Consider what was being done in saying those words. It wasn't for the Pharisees themselves, they were rejecting Jesus already. It was to turn away those others who saw what Jesus did.

I'm not seeing how this is any different.

Luke records the same event but without referrence to the blaspemy of the Holy Spirit. In Mark and Matthew, these seem to me to be the same event, the same accusation, the same warning.

I'll still say that we don't need to look any further to understand what Jesus is talking about. He tells us very straightfoward.

Much love!

I understand your point of view, but I still read this from Matthew's account by connecting the verse before verse 30 because verse 30 started with "Wherefore"

From Matthew 12:
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

So the word spoken against the Holy Spirit is the act done by denying Him before men as standing against Jesus in scattering abroad from Him. Thia was done in unbelief which is the sin the Holy Spirit would convict them for; the only one that counts for eternal damnation from which there is no forgiveness because after they die in unbelief, in never having believed in Jesus Christ, is what the Holy Spirit will convict them of; no other conviction is required or even necessary.
 

Enow

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Through my experience in the former forum I was involvement with for the last 15 or so years, it seems that it is almost impossible to turn an atheist from his atheism.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

You never know when down the road, whatever you planted or watered, God may cause the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
 
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Paul Christensen

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I can remember a time when I thought I was converted, but now I know I wasn’t. If asked I’m sure I could have convinced even the biggest skeptic.
It depends on the foundation of your faith. If you received Christ on the basis of His Word - "Come let us reason together; though your sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as wool", and "Those who receive Christ have the right to be called the children of God". Then you are saved, not because you feel saved, or that you had progressed one bit in personal holiness, but that the Word of God says you are saved when you received Christ as Saviour through faith alone in His finished work on the cross. The Scripture says: "Those who come to Me, I will in no wise cast out."

But if your faith for salvation and conversion is based on your feelings, emotions or religious performance, then your faith is misplaced, and all you got was religion and not genuine conversion.

Being saved through faith in the promises of God, and having the assurance of salvation can be two different things. You can be saved through faith in Christ, but not have the assurance of it, and therefore think that you are not saved when you actually are.

I suspect that you received Christ as Saviour through faith in God's Word in the gospel, but didn't feel saved. Then, at a later stage, the Holy Spirit gave you the witness in your spirit that you are saved, and along with it came the assurance of salvation. That's when you fully believed that you were truly converted to Christ, when you received salvation the moment you said "yes" to Jesus through faith in the written salvation promises in the Bible.
 

Paul Christensen

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Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

You never know when down the road, whatever you planted or watered, God may cause the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
Absolutely true! God can and does surprise us when we least expect it.

I think that the Lord sometimes causes a bit of thunder and lightning by way of warnings to keep us on the straight and narrow. His first warning was to Adam and Eve, and He didn't mince His words:
If you eat of the fruit of that tree, you will DIE!" Who wouldn't be pulled up short by a warning like that? Pity Eve was deceived by the talking snake who told her, "Actually, you won't die. You will become like God, knowing good and evil" causing Eve to doubt God's word.

It's like when I was still at school, we had the local community traffic officer come and tell us the horror stories of children crossing the road without looking and being squished under the wheels of a bus, and children riding their bikes across intersections without looking and having every bone in their bodies broken as the result by being hit by a car.

Or the Smoke Free team who came to school and showed us exhibits of diseased lungs taken out of life-long smokers to show the damage that smoking does to people. Or when I was in the air force, being shown films to see what happens to a person's genitals as the result of chronic STD.

These are not pleasant warnings and they are there to encourage people to keep safe and to discourage actions that would cause harm. God is no different in his Scriptural warnings to us.
 

Stranger

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Stranger..an excellent work indeed.... The key factor/kicker is the use of the Greek verbiage that really does not translate as 'falling away' as in faith...it means 'falling to the side' as in not growing as a new Christian. I used to believe that they were new Jews- 'nearly' converted folks as you did not agree with, and that they were still glued or attached to the Law, as you did agree with me ...I thought they were at the point or in jeopardy of missing the Spirit and full conversion and were about to go all in, back in the Law. I like your explanation better. It completes what I tried to explain, and did inadequately. I will analyze this further and if fully convinced I will synthesize and add to my 'ground' truth.

Bless you, again, great job...I learned some new truth and it makes me very happy indeed.

APAK

Praise God, and I appreciate those words.

Stranger
 
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Enow

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Absolutely true! God can and does surprise us when we least expect it.

Probably why we are to judge any one as if they will never be saved when at the last minute, they just might call on the Lord to be saved.

I think that the Lord sometimes causes a bit of thunder and lightning by way of warnings to keep us on the straight and narrow. His first warning was to Adam and Eve, and He didn't mince His words:
If you eat of the fruit of that tree, you will DIE!" Who wouldn't be pulled up short by a warning like that? Pity Eve was deceived by the talking snake who told her, "Actually, you won't die. You will become like God, knowing good and evil" causing Eve to doubt God's word.

Actually, Eve was created after Adam was told not to eat from that tree. It was Adam that had told what God had said and yet Adam listened to his wife over God's words for why the commandment is for man to be submissive to God by giving His word in the assembly while the women are not.

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Which also serves as another line of discernment when testing the spirits; would the Holy Spirit manifest tongues in women in the assembly? No.

It's like when I was still at school, we had the local community traffic officer come and tell us the horror stories of children crossing the road without looking and being squished under the wheels of a bus, and children riding their bikes across intersections without looking and having every bone in their bodies broken as the result by being hit by a car.

Or the Smoke Free team who came to school and showed us exhibits of diseased lungs taken out of life-long smokers to show the damage that smoking does to people. Or when I was in the air force, being shown films to see what happens to a person's genitals as the result of chronic STD.

These are not pleasant warnings and they are there to encourage people to keep safe and to discourage actions that would cause harm. God is no different in his Scriptural warnings to us.

That is true, brother, especially when believers are led to believe otherwise, the truth to His warnings can be found in His words.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....... 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
 

Earburner

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the writer of Hebrews is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ. The Holy Spirit warns them, “You had better come to Christ now, for if you fall away it will be impossible for you to come again to the point of repentance.” They were at the best point for repentance–full knowledge. To fall back from that would be fatal.

Because they believe the warning is addressed to Christians, many interpreters hold that the passage teaches that salvation can be lost. If this interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. There would be no going back and forth, in and out of grace. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost. John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5).

If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.
Yes! IF ONE IS IN CHRIST, walking in faith believing, their Salvation is secure forever. We must endure through faith unto the end of our life!
Mark 13[13] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

But, if one is not walking in Christ faith believing, then there is much to worry about, for those who were once sanctified, but have departed from the Living God!

1 Cor. 6[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Heb. 2[11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Jude 1[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Heb. 10[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted [decided to despise] the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb. 3
[12] Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
 

Enow

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Yes! IF ONE IS IN CHRIST, walking in faith believing, their Salvation is secure forever. We must endure through faith unto the end of our life!
Mark 13[13] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

But, if one is not walking in Christ faith believing, then there is much to worry about, for those who were once sanctified, but have departed from the Living God!

Even so, He still abides even in former believer.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 Cor. 6[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Heb. 2[11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Jude 1[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Heb. 10[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted [decided to despise] the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb. 3
[12] Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Again, salvation is not contingent in running that race because those found not abiding in Him are at risk of being denied by Him and left behind as vessels unto dishonor in His House when the Bridegroom comes. That is why the call to repent is still to be given to former believers so they may repent and be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
 

Seasoned by Grace

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Even so, He still abides even in former believer.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.



Again, salvation is not contingent in running that race because those found not abiding in Him are at risk of being denied by Him and left behind as vessels unto dishonor in His House when the Bridegroom comes. That is why the call to repent is still to be given to former believers so they may repent and be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I'm sorry but your language is a bit complicated for me, mixing modern day speak with KJV bible language.

Concerning salvation and running the race is, to me, simply put, "The way we live our lives on a daily basis in relationship to our understanding of God's word."
 
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Candidus

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2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

The same as the Old Covenant, God remains faithful to His promises, both positive and negative. When God abides faithful, it reminds us that when some people do not abide in Him, "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb. 10:31.) God cannot deny His own standards, He remains faithful to them.

When someone has died, it is common for people to ask... "Did they go to heaven?" Especially when they were not overt Christians. I cannot claim to be God and know their hearts. My answer is usually, "I do not know where they are, but one thing I do know is, they are in the hands of a Just God." Now the question comes to mind, does the thought of being in the hands of a Just God strike terror in you? Or does it comfort you?

The verse immediately before this gives the context of it all, "If we endure we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;" Yet, He abides faithful to do this. Don't doubt God.
 
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Earburner

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Even so, He still abides even in former believer.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.



Again, salvation is not contingent in running that race because those found not abiding in Him are at risk of being denied by Him and left behind as vessels unto dishonor in His House when the Bridegroom comes. That is why the call to repent is still to be given to former believers so they may repent and be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
KJV- 2 Timothy 2[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
[14] Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
> I think that you are taking that out of context, and then applying to Christians who have fallen away from faith!
The context is saying that even if we (we all) were faithless, He would still be faithful to his offer of Salvation through faith.

Faith LOOKS for faith!
Jesus proves that out in Luke 18:8
 

marks

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I understand your point of view, but I still read this from Matthew's account by connecting the verse before verse 30 because verse 30 started with "Wherefore"

From Matthew 12:
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

So the word spoken against the Holy Spirit is the act done by denying Him before men as standing against Jesus in scattering abroad from Him. Thia was done in unbelief which is the sin the Holy Spirit would convict them for; the only one that counts for eternal damnation from which there is no forgiveness because after they die in unbelief, in never having believed in Jesus Christ, is what the Holy Spirit will convict them of; no other conviction is required or even necessary.
I'm surprised that you don't see these as being accounts of the same event, and this narrative connected throughout.

So then the "wherefore" in 31 refers only to the statement in vs. 30.

So then in Mark,

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

The statement in verses 28-29 are in reference to verse 27 only? That would then harmonize between the two passages. Except that Mark names something else, so wouldn't we need to bring the more specific passage to interpret the less specific passage, rather than the other way?

Much love!
 

Ernest T. Bass

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This is talking about a whole church and not the individuals within it, so we need to be careful about applying this to individuals.

Yes, you are quite right that if a person remains in an unbelieving state, his salvation is at risk.

The church at Ephesus (Revelation 2:4-5) was made up of individuals. When the individuals at Ephesus left their first love, then the church there at Ephesus left Christ and was fallen. Those therefore in a state of unbelief have lost salvation, unless, until they repent.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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My personal belief is that I believe no one is past repentance.

I have seen souls destroyed by that verse in Hebrews .
They died tormented by it.

God be praised. H

I think when the scriptures are talking about individuals who can't be forgiven, those scriptures are mostly focused on the attitude of such individuals. Their heart condition and their willful choice to not change. The Pharisees as a class was an organization that belonged to Satan the scriptures show us. Could an individual in such a organization be forgiven? Yes, but once one truly asked for forgiveness he had to leave that organization and unite with those who were truly Gods servants (christians). The organization of the Pharisees as the scriptures tell us belongs to Satan so those who refused to leave such organization and ask for forgiveness would be, not only destroyed with such an organization, but not be forgiven. The Pharisees as a class said God's Holy Spirit was evil or unholy by ascribing what Jesus was doing when it came to the miracles as being done by demons, even saying Jesus was the chief leader of the demons. The Pharisees were not ignorant when it comes to God's word. They knew no demon could raise anyone back to life, and why would a demon force another demon out of a person that possessed that person. It's the attitude, the heart condition that the scriptures focus on. King David knowingly committed adultery and murder but when confronted was genuinely sorry and repentant of what he did and although he was punished he was forgiven. Judas Iscariot who was truly one of Jesus disciples at one time went back to being a thief and for thirty pieces of silver betrayed Jesus. Although the scriptures show he felt sorry for what he did he wasn't forgiven, if he had, he would not have committed suicide, God's Holy Spirit doesn't influence people to do such as that.
 
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Enow

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I'm sorry but your language is a bit complicated for me, mixing modern day speak with KJV bible language.

Concerning salvation and running the race is, to me, simply put, "The way we live our lives on a daily basis in relationship to our understanding of God's word."

And how do you do that? By faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd and Savior or resorting to our own power in keeping His commandments to obtain salvation by running that race?

If the latter, not sure how anyone can have power to follow Him by faith unless Jesus Christ is in you as saved, but those who resort to their own power are not doing it by faith in Him, even though they are ignorant that they are already saved. They either vain in trying to finish by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit or they confess their sins of their foolishness and go back to surrendering in resting in Him as saved for how they can run that race.
 
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