Are Some Unable To Be Renewed To Repentance?

[Enow]

There Jews looking to Old Testament doctrines of Christ.

Come again?

 

[Waiting on him]

Come again?

In the beginning of Hebrews chapter 6 Paul says let’s abandon this if God will permit. He’s speeking to Jewish men full of hearing, stuck in Judaism.

I believe this needs to be understood before there can be anymore discussion on the op.

 

[marks]

I suppose so. She did not really say how she had done it, but she seemed to think she had done it for why she was worried. I cannot remember if I led the assurance of her salvation or added to someone else that did, but I did assure her that because she believes in Him, she is forgiven and saved.

I'd stay with what I read in the Bible.

I remember a pastor who for all his life was set on the permanence of rebirth, but then he got to thinking about a man who had been an arena evangelist, but then denied the faith, and never returned to it.

This pastor was so sure that this man had been born again, that this changed his point of view on the certainty of salvation. Yet when I read what this man had written, he was successful at a number of things, and evangelism was right up his ally. And by his own words, it was when he went to seminary that he realized he didn't actually believe this stuff.

So here's a pastor tossing away the study of God's Word throughout a lifetime for what he perceived in someone else, which wasn't even right, according to that person.

We should never allow our perceptions of others, or their reports to us, to change what we believe the Bible to be teaching us. Lead us to question, sure, but then go back to the Bible to see if these things are true.

Much love!

 

[Paul Christensen]

the writer of Hebrews is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ. The Holy Spirit warns them, “You had better come to Christ now, for if you fall away it will be impossible for you to come again to the point of repentance.” They were at the best point for repentance–full knowledge. To fall back from that would be fatal.

Not correct. Read it properly. It refers to those who already have received Christ and tasted of the good things to come. To apply it to those who first hear the gospel and who are hesitating, is to give false teaching to them.

Because they believe the warning is addressed to Christians, many interpreters hold that the passage teaches that salvation can be lost. If this interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. There would be no going back and forth, in and out of grace. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost. John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5).

Salvation can be lost if a person, once saved, totally rejects Christ and declares himself atheist. There is no way back for that person. I believe in eternal security for the believer, but not if a believer deliberately and knowingly becomes a non-believer.

If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.

Absolutely! As long as we remain in Christ!

 

[Paul Christensen]

The book of Hebrews is addressing Jews, this is why it’s labeled Hebrews. The audience isn’t atheist, they look to God for salvation but don’t understand they can only come to God through Christ. This is why in the beginning of the chapter Paul says leaving the doctrines of Christ. This would never be suggested to a Christian. He is speaking to Jews that have an Old Testament understanding of Christ. Laying on of hands; laying hands on their sacrifices.. washings; all the wash pots by the doors and washings before meals.. < baptisms

These are how Old Testament looks for Christ.>>>>

Hebrews is addressed to both Jews and Jewish Christians. It is a warning to Jews that if they receive Christ as Saviour they need to stick with Him or take the consequences if they fall back into their unbelieving Judaism. And it is a warning for Jewish Christians that now they have tasted the blessings of being in Christ, that they don't turn back and desert Him.

 

[Enow]

In the beginning of Hebrews chapter 6 Paul says let’s abandon this if God will permit. He’s speeking to Jewish men full of hearing, stuck in Judaism.

I believe this needs to be understood before there can be anymore discussion on the op.

You mean former Jews but now born again believers, right? How were they stuck in Judaism when that chapter was about those who fell away and then came back to believing in Him again that they need not go through what they did in the beginning as new believers for that would be like putting Jesus to shame if the He had to die for them again. That is why the call is to continue on to perfection because life, the rain, has been received and it is a call to repent of those weeds and thickets to purge ourselves of those things. That is how I am reading it to mean.

 

[Waiting on him]

Not correct. Read it properly. It refers to those who already have received Christ and tasted of the good things to come. To apply it to those who first hear the gospel and who are hesitating, is to give false teaching to them.


Salvation can be lost if a person, once saved, totally rejects Christ and declares himself atheist. There is no way back for that person. I believe in eternal security for the believer, but not if a believer deliberately and knowingly becomes a non-believer.


Absolutely! As long as we remain in Christ!

Why would Paul or any Christian tell other born again to abandon the principles of the doctrine of Christ? I believe you may be confused as to whom his audience is in Hebrews.

 

[APAK]

I gave a very lengthy interpretation of the verses described here on April 26, 2017. It can be found in the 'Bible Study Forum'. Just type in 'Explanation of the Warning in Heb. 6:1-8'.

If any have any questions concerning it, I will be glad to answer.

Stranger

Stranger..an excellent work indeed.... The key factor/kicker is the use of the Greek verbiage that really does not translate as 'falling away' as in faith...it means 'falling to the side' as in not growing as a new Christian. I used to believe that they were new Jews- 'nearly' converted folks as you did not agree with, and that they were still glued or attached to the Law, as you did agree with me ...I thought they were at the point or in jeopardy of missing the Spirit and full conversion and were about to go all in, back in the Law. I like your explanation better. It completes what I tried to explain, and did inadequately. I will analyze this further and if fully convinced I will synthesize and add to my 'ground' truth.

Bless you, again, great job...I learned some new truth and it makes me very happy indeed.

APAK

 

[Waiting on him]

You mean former Jews but now born again believers, right? How were they stuck in Judaism when that chapter was about those who fell away and then came back to believing in Him again that they need not go through what they did in the beginning as new believers for that would be like putting Jesus to shame if the He had to die for them again. That is why the call is to continue on to perfection because life, the rain, has been received and it is a call to repent of those weeds and thickets to purge ourselves of those things. That is how I am reading it to mean.

Yes move on to maturity/perfection, but I can’t believe their born again if Paul is having to tell them this in the first place?

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews is addressed to both Jews and Jewish Christians. It is a warning to Jews that if they receive Christ as Saviour they need to stick with Him or take the consequences if they fall back into their unbelieving Judaism. And it is a warning for Jewish Christians that now they have tasted the blessings of being in Christ, that they don't turn back and desert Him.

This is impossible.

 

[Enow]

I'd stay with what I read in the Bible.

I remember a pastor who for all his life was set on the permanence of rebirth, but then he got to thinking about a man who had been an arena evangelist, but then denied the faith, and never returned to it.

This pastor was so sure that this man had been born again, that this changed his point of view on the certainty of salvation. Yet when I read what this man had written, he was successful at a number of things, and evangelism was right up his ally. And by his own words, it was when he went to seminary that he realized he didn't actually believe this stuff.

So here's a pastor tossing away the study of God's Word throughout a lifetime for what he perceived in someone else, which wasn't even right, according to that person.

We should never allow our perceptions of others, or their reports to us, to change what we believe the Bible to be teaching us. Lead us to question, sure, but then go back to the Bible to see if these things are true.

Much love!

Well, I happen to discern the meaning of Jesus' words in Mark's account has to be the same in Luke's and Matthew's for rightly dividing the word of truth for why I do not agree with your application of the meaning of His words by the emphasis of what they had said about the Holy Spirit, when the act of saying that was done in unbelief which is the only sin that the Holy Spirit has been testified to convict the world of as it is unbelief that sends sinners to hell and to the lake of fire. I do not see any special segment of judgment where speaking against the Holy Ghost Himself sends them to the lake of fire.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I believe the Bible is clear that this does not happen, that no born again child of God becomes athiest, and dies again.

Someone who professes Christianity, but who later departs from the faith, never really had it to begin with.

Much love!

So you are saying that those whom Jesus said adopted faith while in the shallow soil or the soil infested by weeds were not genuine believers from the start?

I understand that what you are saying is Calvinist doctrine and would apply to many who become religious without being genuinely converted, and when the honeymoon period is over and things get a bit tough, they give it up and fall away.

But if a person is truly born again, and then knowingly and deliberately turn away and reject Christ, then that is a much more serious matter. But consider the Hebrews references as a warning and not an indication that it is a regular occurrence among born-again believers.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Revelation 2:4-5 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

The church at Ephesus had fallen and commanded to repent or their candlestick (church Revelation 1:20) would be removed. Obviously Christ would not command them to repent if repentance were impossible. In the context of Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks of those who were once saved but have fallen away and become lost (apostates). They have fallen into a state where they were continuously (present tense verbs) crucifying Christ and putting Him to shame. Christ is the reason one repents but if one continues crucifying and putting to shame the reason to repent then repentance will be impossible. But if one quits crucifying Christ and quits putting Him to shame he can come to repent, but it is impossible for those to repent who fall into unbelief and remain in that state. The inability, impossibility to repent is due to a willful choice to reject Christ and not a necessary condition to be in for one can chose to quit rejecting Christ and then be able to come to repentance.

This is talking about a whole church and not the individuals within it, so we need to be careful about applying this to individuals.

Yes, you are quite right that if a person remains in an unbelieving state, his salvation is at risk.

 

[Enow]

Yes move on to maturity/perfection, but I can’t believe their born again if Paul is having to tell them this in the first place?

Doubts can happen. Especially when some believers in this forum doubt they are saved yet or believe they can fall away to lose salvation as some do seem to think that is what Hebrews 6th chapter is about.

 

[marks]

So you are saying that those whom Jesus said adopted faith while in the shallow soil or the soil infested by weeds were not genuine believers from the start?

I understand that what you are saying is Calvinist doctrine and would apply to many who become religious without being genuinely converted, and when the honeymoon period is over and things get a bit tough, they give it up and fall away.

But if a person is truly born again, and then knowingly and deliberately turn away and reject Christ, then that is a much more serious matter. But consider the Hebrews references as a warning and not an indication that it is a regular occurrence among born-again believers.

Adopted faith? I don't think that's what Jesus said.

Some seed fell in the shallow soil, those who receive the word with joy, but fall away with persecution. No fruit borne there.

Some seed in the thorns, but it's choked out by cares and riches, and is unfruitful. No, I don't see these as being like the seed that fell in the good soil and bore fruit.

Calvin aside, I've never been into him.

But yes, mental agreement with the idea of the Gospel, but not more than that. Not belief that it is True.

Personally, I don't see this passage in Hebrews that way at all. I think the common misunderstanding of this passage has been the source of needless fear for many people for a long time.

Truly born again who turns away and rejects Christ like I know you mean? Who does that? I don't think any do.

Consider . . . well, maybe you have different ideas on the old man and the new man.

The old man is the source of sin, and has already been judged, condemned, with sentence to be carried out. Any rejection of Christ, if we deny Him, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself, any such rejection would, in its sinfulness, find it's source in the old man, not the new. The old man is judged, condemned, but not the new man.

It's in understanding this truth that we realize our complete freedom from the power of the old man, which is the power of sin. Sin receives it's power from the Law. But by our death in Christ we escape the penalty of the Law, and are free. In our freedom from the Law, the power of sin is gutted, and sin becomes helpless to hurt us in that way. We can waste our time. We can lose reward. We can cause harm. But we cannot be condemned. Because we are dead to the Law.

But as for the born again Christian rejecting God as you mean . . . His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. By His Spirit I cry Abba! Dad! His Spirit . . . our spirits . . . our unity with Him, again, who does that? Who actually has been born the spirit child of God, our spirits testifying together, calling out together?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, I happen to discern the meaning of Jesus' words in Mark's account has to be the same in Luke's and Matthew's for rightly dividing the word of truth for why I do not agree with your application of the meaning of His words by the emphasis of what they had said about the Holy Spirit, when the act of saying that was done in unbelief which is the only sin that the Holy Spirit has been testified to convict the world of as it is unbelief that sends sinners to hell and to the lake of fire. I do not see any special segment of judgment where speaking against the Holy Ghost Himself sends them to the lake of fire.

Consider what was being done in saying those words. It wasn't for the Pharisees themselves, they were rejecting Jesus already. It was to turn away those others who saw what Jesus did.

From Matthew 12:
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

I'm not seeing how this is any different.

Luke records the same event but without referrence to the blaspemy of the Holy Spirit. In Mark and Matthew, these seem to me to be the same event, the same accusation, the same warning.

I'll still say that we don't need to look any further to understand what Jesus is talking about. He tells us very straightfoward.

Much love!

 

[Paul Christensen]

As I said, go to 'Bible Study forum'. In the search window, type in 'Explanation of the Warning in Heb. 6:1-8'. Comes up every time I do it.

Stranger

Doesn't come up for me, so I must be doing something wrong but I don't know what.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hi Paul would you tell a born again Christian to abandon the principles of the doctrine of Christ?

Never in a million years!

 

[Paul Christensen]

2 Timothy 2:18 cite an example of a believer that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown. There are many believers and even pastors that lost faith in God and the Bible because of the lie of the evolution theory.

But yet. nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure and that seal of adoption is not going away for why these former believers are called to depart from iniquity. as Per 2 Timothy 2:19-21

Indeed, even if they believe not any more, He still abides as per 2 Timothy 2:13

So if a former believer is a total atheist now.. He still abides in him or her for why they need to be called to go before that throne of grace to ask Jesus for help to believe in Him again by seeing the error as lies and to find the truth needed for them to believe in Him again.

Through my experience in the former forum I was involvement with for the last 15 or so years, it seems that it is almost impossible to turn an atheist from his atheism.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Why would Paul or any Christian tell other born again to abandon the principles of the doctrine of Christ? I believe you may be confused as to whom his audience is in Hebrews.

But Paul never told anyone to do that! Anyway, the Apostle to the Hebrews has not been proved to be Paul. What the Apostle is saying that we should progress from just handling the milk of the word as just ordinary carnal people with their hearts and minds still in the world and to develop their faith and practice to be able to handle the deeper principles of the Christian faith. He is not talking about abandoning their faith in Christ.

It's like telling adult Christians to develop their Bible knowledge from just the Sunday School stories they heard as children.