Are There People Doomed For Destruction?

[reformed1689]

In another thread I asked @stunnedbygrace this question but did not get a response. If you do not believe there are people doomed to destruction, how do you deal with the Pharaoh of the Exodus and with Judas?

 

[BarneyFife]

In another thread I asked @stunnedbygrace this question but did not get a response. If you do not believe there are people doomed to destruction, how do you deal with the Pharaoh of the Exodus and with Judas?

By accepting that God can do things beyond my understanding like foreknow and yet not predeterminate. There's plenty of evidence in the Bible to that effect. Plus, there's enough beauty in God's creation to suggest that He wouldn't create most people solely for the purpose of serving the devil and suffering eternal torment. There's lots of support for that view in the Bible, too.

 

[FHII]

I certainly can't. It clearly says that Pharaoh and Judas were foreknown what they would do and in fact was part of the plan. People hate to hear that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and try to wiggle out of it. But the Bible still says it!

I firmly believe in predestination and the belief that nothing we do is outside God's plan. It is plainly true as the Bible says. There is one problem: we (as humans) are rarely told our fate. God knows, and ordains and declared it, but he never told us before hand. Thus, we have no choice but to strive and work to please God.

In other words, those that are predestinated are never told that they are. God gave us a checklist and formula, but we have to follow it to the end. While God knows, we don't! While God foreordained it, he forgot to tell individuals.

Predestination is real, but its useless because God doesn't reveal our fate to us except in rare instances.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

As a presbyterian, let me be the first to say that the majority of mankind will end up in hell. And as romans 9 says, we are not to question what God has intended for us, but to accept our fate.

i’ll also go one step further and say that apparently those in hell know who else will be joining them as in luke, the parable of lazarus and the rich man. Despite being in hell, the rich man only cared about his brothers who were still alive. He wanted to warn them.

 

[quietthinker]

I certainly can't. It clearly says that Pharaoh and Judas were foreknown what they would do and in fact was part of the plan. People hate to hear that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and try to wiggle out of it. But the Bible still says it!

I firmly believe in predestination and the belief that nothing we do is outside God's plan. It is plainly true as the Bible says. There is one problem: we (as humans) are rarely told our fate. God knows, and ordains and declared it, but he never told us before hand. Thus, we have no choice but to strive and work to please God.

In other words, those that are predestinated are never told that they are. God gave us a checklist and formula, but we have to follow it to the end. While God knows, we don't! While God foreordained it, he forgot to tell individuals.

Predestination is real, but its useless because God doesn't reveal our fate to us except in rare instances.

It's possible to formulate any number of views by being selective which texts one chooses to highlight. This has been done for a long time.
God's definitive reply is Jesus .....Soooooo, here we have it, God's best shot......a bent backwards exercise in inviting all people to know him ......and even that we bungle for reasons unfathomable.

 

[Scott Downey]

I certainly can't. It clearly says that Pharaoh and Judas were foreknown what they would do and in fact was part of the plan. People hate to hear that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and try to wiggle out of it. But the Bible still says it!

I firmly believe in predestination and the belief that nothing we do is outside God's plan. It is plainly true as the Bible says. There is one problem: we (as humans) are rarely told our fate. God knows, and ordains and declared it, but he never told us before hand. Thus, we have no choice but to strive and work to please God.

In other words, those that are predestinated are never told that they are. God gave us a checklist and formula, but we have to follow it to the end. While God knows, we don't! While God foreordained it, he forgot to tell individuals.

Predestination is real, but its useless because God doesn't reveal our fate to us except in rare instances.

Not totally useless though except in the particulars of your life which only God can know. the usefulness is in the knowing of your eternal life with God, that it is sure and certain, just like 2 Thessalonians 2 says, this is everlasting consolation from the Father to His foreknown to Him people, that He chose you from the beginning for salvation.

Scripture is steadily emphasizing the salvation of those who believe in Christ, and further proof is shown in that He chose us to be the redeemed of the LORD.
The alternative is all worry and fears, like was I good enough, did I believe hard enough, did I doubt God to much to be saved, and that is not of God, but of the flesh. By God preordaining people, the flesh is removed from the decision. Just like John 1:10-14 also says.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[reformed1689]

By accepting that God can do things beyond my understanding like foreknow and yet not predeterminate. There's plenty of evidence in the Bible to that effect. Plus, there's enough beauty in God's creation to suggest that He wouldn't create most people solely for the purpose of serving the devil and suffering eternal torment. There's lots of support for that view in the Bible, too.

First, you might want to do some study on what it means to foreknow. That is not the same thing as foresee a choice they will make.

Second, so you do admit that at least some people are created as a vessel of wrath?

 

[ChristisGod]

First, you might want to do some study on what it means to foreknow. That is not the same thing as foresee a choice they will make.

Second, so you do admit that at least some people are created as a vessel of wrath?

The question is are these isolated cases with judas/pharoah with one time events in history never to be repeated - the exodus and the cross or are these universal truths.

We cannot deny Gods hand and Sovereignty over these events/people as you pointed out the same thing said of judas the son of perdition is the same phrase used of the man of sin/antichrist in the end- both doomed for destruction as Paul points out in Thessalonians.

I use to believe this was a universal truth but no longer hold that position. I believe these are specific cases, not universal ones.

hope this helps !!!

 

[BarneyFife]

As a presbyterian, let me be the first to say that the majority of mankind will end up in hell. And as romans 9 says, we are not to question what God has intended for us, but to accept our fate.

i’ll also go one step further and say that apparently those in hell know who else will be joining them as in luke, the parable of lazarus and the rich man. Despite being in hell, the rich man only cared about his brothers who were still alive. He wanted to warn them.

If the wicked know for certain where their steps are tending, then why are you so unsure about your destiny? And, if you are certain you are bound for hell, that would make you wicked which, according to Daniel 12:10, would render you completely untrustworthy in instructing others about righteousness and judgment. You are twisting the meaning of the parable of The Rich Man And Lazarus (Christ’s Object Lessons). You cannot, as you imagine ("at least I'm honest"), squeeze good fruit out of a dead tree. You need to stop your righteousness by self-flagellation and beg God for repentance and be reconciled to Him before it is too late for you and those you are discouraging.

The righteous fall seven (or 7 X 70—or 7 million—it's a symbolic number) times and rise again. The thoughts you have about being irredeemable are simply whispered imperceptively into your ears by the father of lies. Heed him not. John Calvin would rebuke you were he still alive. In any case, if you are so zealously intent upon spreading your message of doom and gloom, you might at least keep still in order that others may hear the Gospel without your denial of it.
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.....The time had come for the gospel to be proclaimed beyond the confines of Asia Minor. The way was preparing for Paul and his fellow workers to cross over into Europe. At Troas, on the borders of the Mediterranean Sea, “a vision appeared to Paul in the night: There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.” The call was imperative, admitting of no delay. “After he had seen the vision,” declares Luke, who accompanied Paul and Silas and Timothy on the journey across to Europe, “immediately we endeavored to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; and from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony.”

.....“On the Sabbath,” Luke continues, “we went out of the city by a riverside, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshiped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened.” Lydia received the truth gladly. She and her household were converted and baptized, and she entreated the apostles to make her house their home.

.....As the messengers of the cross went about their work of teaching, a woman possessed of a spirit of divination followed them, crying, “These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days.”

.....This woman was a special agent of Satan and had brought to her masters much gain by soothsaying. Her influence had helped to strengthen idolatry. Satan knew that his kingdom was being invaded, and he resorted to this means of opposing the work of God, hoping to mingle his sophistry with the truths taught by those who were proclaiming the gospel message.

.....The words of recommendation uttered by this woman were an injury to the cause of truth, distracting the minds of the people from the teachings of the apostles and bringing disrepute upon the gospel, and by them many were led to believe that the men who spoke with the Spirit and power of God were actuated by the same spirit as this emissary of Satan.

.....For some time the apostles endured this opposition; then under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost Paul commanded the evil spirit to leave the woman. Her immediate silence testified that the apostles were the servants of God and that the demon had acknowledged them to be such and had obeyed their command.

.....Dispossessed of the evil spirit and restored to her right mind, the woman chose to become a follower of Christ. Then her masters were alarmed for their craft. They saw that all hope of receiving money from her divinations and soothsayings was at an end and that their source of income would soon be entirely cut off if the apostles were allowed to continue the work of the gospel.

Acts Of The Apostles—EGW—pp. 211-213

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

 

[BarneyFife]

First, you might want to do some study on what it means to foreknow. That is not the same thing as foresee a choice they will make.

Second, so you do admit that at least some people are created as a vessel of wrath?

Thanks for the advice. I neither concede nor admit anything. I don't fall for traps, either.

 

[dev553344]

In another thread I asked @stunnedbygrace this question but did not get a response. If you do not believe there are people doomed to destruction, how do you deal with the Pharaoh of the Exodus and with Judas?

The Pharaoh chose his path. Had he reached out to God to have mercy then it wouldn't have happened. And the old testament is a bit hard to understand since it is such an old translation. But the Lord hardening Pharaohs heart was nothing more than reaching out to him to have compassion on the slaves. And when he wouldn't listen probably the Lord withdrew from Pharaoh.

Nothing predestined about it.

 

[BarneyFife]

The Pharaoh chose his path. Had he reached out to God to have mercy then it wouldn't have happened. And the old testament is a bit hard to understand since it is such an old translation. But the Lord hardening Pharaohs heart was nothing more than reaching out to him to have compassion on the slaves. And when he wouldn't listen probably the Lord withdrew from Pharaoh.

Nothing predestined about it.

It was predestined but not predetermined in the sense of dictating what would be Pharoah's final decision for or against God. I'm starting a thread about predestination. I think it's worth doing a serious Bible study.

 

[dev553344]

It was predestined but not predetermined in the sense of dictating what would be Pharoah's final decision for or against God. I'm starting a thread about predestination. I think it's worth doing a serious Bible study.

Sounds great, let me know where it is.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In another thread I asked @stunnedbygrace this question but did not get a response. If you do not believe there are people doomed to destruction, how do you deal with the Pharaoh of the Exodus and with Judas?

They are doomed to destruction because they are ground in which the word of God simply will not take root no matter how much seed God sows in it and waters and fertilizes it. God knows ahead of time who these people are and positions them in history to fulfill his ends (i.e. Pharaoh), just as he does with people in whom the word of God will take root and flourish (i.e. Mary). Everybody in whom the word of God is not retained and growing is, in that state, doomed to destruction. I don't think it wise to overthink it beyond that. The important thing is that people realize the word of God has to be in them and growing in order for them to be saved from destruction when Jesus comes back.

 

[BarneyFife]

They are doomed to destruction because they are ground in which the word of God simply will not take root no matter how much seed God sows in it and waters and fertilizes it. God knows ahead of time who these people are and positions them in history to fulfill his ends (i.e. Pharaoh), just as he does with people in whom the word of God will take root and flourish (i.e. Mary). Everybody in whom the word of God is not retained and growing is, in that state, doomed to destruction. I don't think it wise to overthink it beyond that. The important thing is that people realize the word of God has to be in them and growing in order for them to be saved from destruction when Jesus comes back.

Man, you're a trooper for truth.

 

[FHII]

It's possible to formulate any number of views by being selective which texts one chooses to highlight. This has been done for a long time.
God's definitive reply is Jesus .....Soooooo, here we have it, God's best shot......a bent backwards exercise in inviting all people to know him ......and even that we bungle for reasons unfathomable.

Quietthinker, are you suggesting that I have been selective in the verses I chose to highlight?

I realize that God has invited all people to know him. That point cannot be disputed.

 

[FHII]

Not totally useless though except in the particulars of your life which only God can know. the usefulness is in the knowing of your eternal life with God, that it is sure and certain, just like 2 Thessalonians 2 says, this is everlasting consolation from the Father to His foreknown to Him people, that He chose you from the beginning for salvation.

Of course. As long as we follow the plan, but only God knows if we will. We have assurance that IF we stay on his path we will have eternal life. We have no assurance that we will, so we must contend for the faith.

 

[Taken]

Are There People Doomed For Destruction?
OP^

Yes.
Just as there are people Sanctified for everlasting life.

God - Is, Idea, What, Creator
Lord - Is, Author, Word, What, Maker
Almighty - Is, Power, Authority, What

Intent - Use Idea, Create
Intent - Use Word, Make
Intent - Use Power, Effect
Intent - Why? (Bottom Live) To Love and Be Loved

ORDER: God:
First-Give: Second-Receive
Gods Love IS Gods Desire to Give and Receive.
God IS Love. God Gives Love. God Desires Love.

WAY: God:
Power; all-mighty-
“ALL KNOWING”...if, when, a man’s will will be to Love Him.

WAY: God
God “NEVER” stops “Giving” His Love. (Until the day, a man is destroyed and He remembers you no more. And that will not occur Until After Judgement/Sentence day.)

WAY: God
A man WITH Gods Spirit; God “NEVER” stops “Giving” his love.

ORDER: Man:
First-Receive: Second-Give (see the reverse opposite of Gods Order)
*Creation...first able to Receive Love.
*Making... is Ability to Give Love.
(Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

WAY: Man:
Power;
“Limited”...if, when, what a man will choose to give love.
(?? Give Love, Daddy, Mommy, Brothers, Sisters, Relatives, Friends, Neighbors, Teachers, Authorities, Spouses, Strangers, Enemies...)

WAY: Man
Power;
“Limited”... picks chooses WHAT to give Love.
“Limited”... Gives Love; conditionally.
“Condition”..Continues “GIVING” “IF” they “RECEIVE” Love.
“Condition”..”IF” they do not Receive they STOP Giving.

WAY: Man
Gods WAY Offered Option;
Willful Choice;
*Curious, hear, learn, deciding.
*Without God, gives God no love.
*With God, believes, gives God his love, can Stop any time.
*IN God: Shows God his love (via Gives God his Life)
*IN God: God Receives the man Life...By, Through, Of Gods “POWER”.
*Permanent: God loves man, God will Always be with man.
*Permanent: man loves God, man will Always be with God.

Inanutshell...
* Gods Creation (Giving BODY) Idea, Gods Making (Giving a SOUL), Gods Power (Giving WORD) to Effect.
* Mans option to Freely, Willingly, Choose;
1) To Give Love by his own power to other men and the Love he Receives by an others mans power to give love.
2) To Give and Show Love to God, through Bodily death of the man.

The Life of every “body”, is it’s Blood. “IN” you. (Gen 5:9)
The Life of every “soul”, is Gods Breath. “IN” you.(Gen 2:7)
The Life of every “spirit”, is Gods Seed “IN” you. (Rom 8:9)
Every “body” is appointed to die ONCE. (Heb 9:7)
Every “body” MUST die. God Requires it. (Gen 5:9)
* A body of the seed of man, CAN NOT BE Re-born of the SEED of God, unless the body of the seed of man.....DIES. (1 Cor 15:36)

* A man WHO will GIVE his bodily Life, for the Love of God.
** And God will: Take that Life given in Love.
** And God will: Give that man a New forever holy living body.
** And God will: Restore that Soul, back to Very Good. (Pss 23:3)
** And God will: Forever Keep that man WITH God, BY His POWER.
OR:
* A man will NOT GIVE his bodily Life, for the Lack of Loving God.
* God will TAKE a mans bodily BLOOD Life.
* God will TAKE a mans soul (Gods BREATH) Life.
* God will NOT GIVE that man (Spirit Life) of Gods Seed.
* God will Destroy...lifeless body, lifeless soul of that man who Freely rejected BELIEVING IN God and OBEYING Gods Love, Order, Way.
* God will Forget, Remember no more destroyed lifeless body’s, destroyed lifeless souls.

John 15:
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

ORDER and WAY... all about FREEWILL.

And the Mystery IS;
It’s Gods Story. He is the Author. Creator and Maker.
He knows Who Every Character is before they are Created and Made.
He Loves Every one of His Created and Made Characters.
He knows by What Name Every Character Will be Called.
He knows What Every Character Will Choose.
He knows When Every Character Will Choose.
He has Prepared a Place for Every Character.

And “WE” are the Characters.
“WE” do not know the Knowledge.
“WE” open our ears, eyes, gain Knowledge.
“WE” choose to accept or reject Knowledge.
“WE” thirst to “understand” the Knowledge we gain.
“WE” reject Knowledge “we fail to understand”.
THAT ^ is daily...about Natural things..Spiritual things.

MYSTERY - of God
***Gods Knowledge is Freely Given, written, published.
* anyone can hear, read. (Some hear, by happenstance, but no matter, they can not “unhear” what they heard.)

***Gods Understanding of HIS Knowledge is Freely Given..
* to...Believers, while they are Believing (Called WITH God), “according to what God determines” is what is beneficial “then” for them to understand.
(Gods Spirit is WITH Believers, as long as they ENDURE/CONTINUE Believing. Jesus IS their ADVOCATE, They ask God, through Jesus (The Servant of God...ie IN JESUS’NAME) God Hears.
As long as they are WITH (believing) God, Gods Spirit will be WITH them.
Believers can at ANY time, Stop Believing, (they stop being With God, Gods Spirit stops being WITH them) They can Choose something else to Believe in....These are WARNED, the world is full of evil spirits, wicked men to entice them away from God....These are WARNED...THEY will ONLY be SAVED on the DAY of their Bodily DEATH...”IF” ON THE DAY their body dies...they have ENDURED, Kept Believing...Then SHALL BE SAVED) “THESE ARE PROMISED SALVATION IF THEY BELIEVE TO THE DAY OF THEIR DEATH”. <—OSAS
John 16:
[23] And in that day (a man believing) ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Luke 24:
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
(Remember, you can not understand Scriptural knowledge, if you do not hear, read, the Scriptural knowledge).


* to...Converted, (Called “WITH and IN” the Spirit of God)
God will NEVER Leave them. They will NEVER Leave God
* Gods Understanding Freely given “according to THEM ASKING”.
(Gods Spirit is WITH and IN, the Converted. Their Choice was made, They Confessed their Freewill Choice. (Yes be Yes...period)
Their Conversion Accomplish-ED, by Gods Power.
They ARE SAVED.
“THESE ARE SAVES BECAUSE THEY already GAVE THEIR LIFE CRUCIFIED WITH JESUS.” <—OSAS
Their Conversion KEPT, Accomplish-ED by Gods Spirit/Power IN them. They no longer require an ADVOCATE to speak to God on their behalf. They have DIRECT Communication TO God. (They ASK, They Receive).
John 16:
[26] At that day (converted) ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: -(man prays directly TO God)
BECAUSE:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Col 1:
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

 

[Taken]

Of course. As long as we follow the plan, but only God knows if we will. We have assurance that IF we stay on his path we will have eternal life. We have no assurance that we will, so we must contend for the faith.

We do have “assurance” IF we choose His Offering to be Converted, in, by, through, of Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

word

It's possible to formulate any number of views by being selective which texts one chooses to highlight. This has been done for a long time.
God's definitive reply is Jesus .....Soooooo, here we have it, God's best shot......a bent backwards exercise in inviting all people to know him ......and even that we bungle for reasons unfathomable.

are ppl "doomed" to make the choices they do? "nothing changes if nothing changes" imo