Are There People Doomed For Destruction?

[quietthinker]

God prioritizes principle over policy quite often. He's ordering things so that eventually He'll not only show Himself to be just and merciful, but so that He'll also be seen as such.

As long as evil exists, misrepresentation of God's character will exist.

Do we as people, even angelic beings or other intelligences have the ability to discern the characteristics of love and hate, of evil and good of right and wrong?
If we do not, what is the point of anything? however, if we do let's ask, does violence for any reason against another magnify the God manifested in the incarnation?

What I'm saying is, Jesus identified evil's source and purpose and declared plainly what his own objectives are...
John 10:10 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.'

We know who the thief is from John 8:44-45 'Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I do not see God entertaining or manifesting the characteristics of the devil.....Jesus taught/showed us this unequivocally.

Ok, I'm aware of pushing the envelope of several traditional understandings on this matter which all have their 'bible verses' as back up, just as they have to many other erroneous ideas, however, we need to reconsider these things in the light of how God has shown himself to be in the definitive words and actions of Jesus. We need to reconsider our understanding of how evil and evil doers finally come to their sticky end.

 

[bbyrd009]

They are doomed to destruction because they are ground in which the word of God simply will not take root no matter how much seed God sows in it and waters and fertilizes it. God knows ahead of time who these people are and positions them in history to fulfill his ends (i.e. Pharaoh), just as he does with people in whom the word of God will take root and flourish (i.e. Mary). Everybody in whom the word of God is not retained and growing is, in that state, doomed to destruction. I don't think it wise to overthink it beyond that. The important thing is that people realize the word of God has to be in them and growing in order for them to be saved from destruction when Jesus comes back.

Jesus isnt with you right now, Ferris? hmm

 

[bbyrd009]

The universe has to be secured from rebellion, eventually.

sounds like fascism to me tbh

I think so, yes, however, how is that ultimately achieved? ....so I ask myself the question, if God did not insist on arresting the killers of Jesus by using force of arms when the whole sorry murdering scenario was in process, why would he resort to force of arms down the track?....why would he use the tactic of the enemy as if there were no other options?

…after He has destroyed all rulers, powers, and authority
seems to suggest a different scenario maybe

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus isnt with you right now, Ferris? hmm

How did you get that out of what I said, lol?

 

[bbyrd009]

How did you get that out of what I said, lol?

well, its kinda like when ppl say or infer that Bible is Word, imo; iow it seems to me that if one is waiting for Jesus to return—which they cannot even Quote btw—then by definition they do not recog the Jesus that is with them right now? (Similar to if one deems the Bible the Word, they will not recog Word when it manifests)

now dont get me wrong, idk, Jesus might “return” today lol…im only saying it cant be Quoted

 

[bbyrd009]

Do we as people, even angelic beings or other intelligences have the ability to discern the characteristics of love and hate, of evil and good of right and wrong?

we sure think we can, huh?
but how easy is it to misjudge a situation, especially if we are only bystanders?

If we do not, what is the point of anything?

things have to have a point?

 

[bbyrd009]

What I'm saying is, Jesus identified evil's source and purpose and declared plainly what his own objectives are...
John 10:10 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.'

well—just to be fractious i guess lol—i do recall Jesus whipping some animals—violence—and destroying a um we’ll say “thriving” temple market; point being how would one discern there? Im sure those dove-sellers, as well as those who allowed them to sell in the temple courts, saw no evil, thought they were even providing a vital service?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

well, its kinda like when ppl say or infer that Bible is Word, imo; iow it seems to me that if one is waiting for Jesus to return—which they cannot even Quote btw—then by definition they do not recog the Jesus that is with them right now? (Similar to if one deems the Bible the Word, they will not recog Word when it manifests)

now dont get me wrong, idk, Jesus might “return” today lol…im only saying it cant be Quoted

Jesus is in you by the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself is in heaven until the appointed time when he will return to restore all things:

Acts of the Apostles 1:11
Acts of the Apostles 3:20-21
Hebrews 9:28

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus is in you by the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself is in heaven until the appointed time when he will return to restore all things:

Acts of the Apostles 1:11
Acts of the Apostles 3:21

dont think so, Ferris, where is the body of Christ? gotta run tho for now, peace

 

[stunnedbygrace]

In another thread I asked @stunnedbygrace this question but did not get a response. If you do not believe there are people doomed to destruction, how do you deal with the Pharaoh of the Exodus and with Judas?

Oh you clever bird!
The conversation was over this: God is not willing for any man to perish, which means it is not what God wants, desires or or wills that any man perish vs. what you said, which was this: God does not want every man to be saved.

So we have God: I do not will or desire or want for any man to perish.
And we have you: God does not want every man to be saved.

Isn’t it enough for you to keep the best of the pastures for yourselves? Must you also trample down the rest? Isn’t it enough for you to drink clear water for yourselves? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

dont think so, Ferris, where is the body of Christ? gotta run tho for now, peace

The body of Christ is composed of all those parts in whom his Spirit resides. Just like your spirit is in all the members of your body.

 

[GEN2REV]

In another thread I asked @stunnedbygrace this question but did not get a response. If you do not believe there are people doomed to destruction, how do you deal with the Pharaoh of the Exodus and with Judas?

It's highly controversial, but I do believe there are people doomed for destruction.

The Bible supports that assertion with its many verses about Children of the devil, of Belial, reprobates, those like wild beasts created for destruction, etc.

Also we have the Wheat and Tares doctrine that Jesus taught and made clear it was not just a made-up parable to teach a lesson when He explained it to the disciples as clearly being about Jesus planting good people and the children of the devil. He could've plainly admitted it was just a parable there, but He did not.

And we have the multiple occasions of fallen angels copulating with human women, before and after the flood.

So there is definitely something to the concept of people being upon the earth who have no chance whatever of being saved. If for no other reason, we have Jesus telling us that it is only those who God calls that can ever come to Him. That leaves many that are never called and God would know who those people are from their birth since He can see the end from the beginning.

 

[BarneyFife]

As long as evil exists, misrepresentation of God's character will exist.

This could also be true in the converse: As long as distortion of God's character exist, evil will exist, since, going back to the original sins of Lucifer and Eve, evil was thus brought about by the suggestion of the serpent in the case of Eve, and in the indulgence of the imaginations of Lucifer's heart, in his own case.

Do we as people, even angelic beings or other intelligences have the ability to discern the characteristics of love and hate, of evil and good of right and wrong?

Only insofar as they are demonstrated and recognized by the agency of the Holy Spirit, I would have to reason.

If we do not, what is the point of anything?

Rhetorical, perhaps?

however, if we do let's ask, does violence for any reason against another magnify the God manifested in the incarnation?

The image of God manifested in the incarnation was appropriate for the purposes of progressive revelation.

John 16:12 I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.

Turning the other cheek is a policy meant for His people at this time. It is based on principles, such as humility (such as becomes humanity) and mercy. But no justice is thereby exhibited.

Vengeance belongs to God. People are not good at it.

If this policy is implemented in every case for eternity, the disease of sin will spread until there is no one left holy but God Himself. It won't work as a means of securing the universe, which is what Calvary is all about. There, justice is perfectly mingled with mercy.

And, as @bbyrd009 has pointed out, there were a few times when divine indignation flashed through Christ's humanity.

 

[BarneyFife]

well, its kinda like when ppl say or infer that Bible is Word, imo; iow it seems to me that if one is waiting for Jesus to return—which they cannot even Quote btw—then by definition they do not recog the Jesus that is with them right now? (Similar to if one deems the Bible the Word, they will not recog Word when it manifests)

now dont get me wrong, idk, Jesus might “return” today lol…im only saying it cant be Quoted

Honestly, I'm just a tad surprised that you would use words as definite as "can't be quoted" to describe the Parousia. I'm somewhat familiar with your views on this (although I know you eschew being pinned down) but we've never really discussed them.

I must confess, I believe most people make either too much or too little of metaphors, but:

I would be interested to hear your views on the passages below. I submit them not as proof texts but, honestly, as a curiosity of your interpretation. I suspect I know the answer based on your exchange with good ol' FB.

John 14
2In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Revelation 1
7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Allegorical?

 

[BarneyFife]

I just think it's silly to conjecture about what's going on in the mind of God apart from that which He has made perfectly plain, which does not include 5-point squibbledy-flabbledy-dooism of any kind. And I don't care if "Arminius started it." Reactionary religion is not my thing, either. (Although I must admit to being something of a non-comformist in some ways.)

 

[bbyrd009]

The body of Christ is composed of all those parts in whom his Spirit resides. Just like your spirit is in all the members of your body.

point being how can Jesus "return" if we got His body

 

[bbyrd009]

John 14
2In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

imo that is maybe not the best translation, but i will say that whenever Jesus says "if" my metaphorical ears perk up
anyway, my guess is that Jesus metaphorically "went" and also "comes again" via the NT testimony that we all now have access to, and discuss, etc

Revelation 1
7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

so here, "clouds" might be an obv metaphor for something like "obscuring," "every eye" might be as opposed to "both eyes" or iow what we now call "third eye" perhaps, "even they who pierced Him" is imo making it plain that Jesus isnt ever literally returning, and the mourning part i gotta do later, im late! bye

 

[BarneyFife]

It's highly controversial, but I do believe there are people doomed for destruction.

But isn't their doom caused by their choices rather than by God's foreknowledge?

This is what's being evaded in the OP, after all.

Hi, G2R!

 

[GEN2REV]

But isn't their doom caused by their choices rather than by God's foreknowledge?

No because if that were the case, we wouldn't have verses like John 6:44. It would mean that any, and all, can come to Christ at their will.

Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we can't even believe on our own. That it's a gift from God.

I looked back at the OP and still I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is the OP evading?

 

[BarneyFife]

No because if that were the case, we wouldn't have verses like John 6:44. It would mean that any, and all, can come to Christ at their will.

Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we can't even believe on our own. That it's a gift from God.

I looked back at the OP and still I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is the OP evading?

It just seemed to me that the OP was trying to suggest Calvinism without actually asserting it.

I neglected to read the rest of your post before replying. I somehow thought we were on the same page on this subject. My mistake. Sometimes I assume, without really thinking, that most Sabbath-keepers think alike. You are a Sabbath-keeper, if I remember correctly?