Are There People Doomed For Destruction?

[BarneyFife]

I realize that God has invited all people to know him. That point cannot be disputed.

Wanna bet? Guarantee you somebody's got you in their sights right now.

 

[FHII]

Wanna bet? Guarantee you somebody's got you in their sights right now.

I imagine they do. But just like I have strong and undeniable verses on predestination, I also have strong undeniable verses that all have access to salvation.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Wanna bet? Guarantee you somebody's got you in their sights right now.

RC Sproul said “When I hear preachers stand up and say that 'God loves everybody unconditionally,' I want to scream and say, ‘Wait a minute. Then why does He call us to repent? Why does He call us to come to the cross? Why does He call us to come to Christ?' If God loves everybody unconditionally, then you can do whatever you want and believe whatever you think. And it's just not true that God loves us unconditionally. He's placed an absolute condition by which He requires—He doesn't just invite people to come to His Son—He commands all men everywhere to repent of their sins and to come to Christ.”

 

[ScottA]

A better verse...if you do not believe there are "people doomed to destruction" might be:

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

 

[ScottA]

I certainly can't. It clearly says that Pharaoh and Judas were foreknown what they would do and in fact was part of the plan. People hate to hear that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and try to wiggle out of it. But the Bible still says it!

I firmly believe in predestination and the belief that nothing we do is outside God's plan. It is plainly true as the Bible says. There is one problem: we (as humans) are rarely told our fate. God knows, and ordains and declared it, but he never told us before hand. Thus, we have no choice but to strive and work to please God.

In other words, those that are predestinated are never told that they are. God gave us a checklist and formula, but we have to follow it to the end. While God knows, we don't! While God foreordained it, he forgot to tell individuals.

Predestination is real, but its useless because God doesn't reveal our fate to us except in rare instances.

Good to see you FH--seems like it's been awhile!

That is as good an explanation as I have heard coming out of the gallery of believers. But with a little timeless God-spin...if you took out all the time components--you'd have the whole truth.

In other words, these events that would seem to be events according to the times of men...are actually according to God, in whom there is no shadow of turning--no time. What does that look like? Like this:

All things happen in Christ, during His "day" or "hour"...which is not actually a day or an hour either, except that He accomplishes it all in the world for a witness to the world. In other words, "as it is written" before the foundation of the world (before and without time), in the twinkling of an eye (a worldly term for "instantly") the only begotten, taking all things upon Himself fulfilled all that is written--which is now illuminated in the Godly creation and prism of time appearing, by revelation to each involve, "each in his own order."
​

Of course within the context of that prism of time much of this is explained to those unaware of the greater reality of God, with the occasional use of such terms as "ordained" and even "predestined"...not to be confused with "were", "was", and "now" which are also used--of course.

 

[Taken]

word

are ppl "doomed" to make the choices they do? "nothing changes if nothing changes" imo

Agree. Man makes no choice, Effect of no choice, Continue without God, just as you were naturally born without God.

Old Testament; Promise: Covent
Gods OPTION...OT...Believe (God & His word) till you physically die.
Die in Belief....Saved THEN...forever.
(OSAS)

New Testament; Promise: Covenant:
Gods OPTION...NT...Believe (God & Lord) and Confess your belief To the Lord.
Give your life unto death, crucified With Jesus....Saved NOW....forever.
(OSAS)

Heb 7
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

OT still an option, but not a “surety”, you will keep believing.

 

[Taken]

word

are ppl "doomed" to make the choices they do? "nothing changes if nothing changes" imo

Doomed for making no choice. Remaining as they are naturally born...without God

People are naturally born without believing/ without God
People who continue without believing/ without God

They made no choice to Be With God.
Their lack of choosing, they remain which what was...without God.

Matt 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

 

[marks]

In another thread I asked @stunnedbygrace this question but did not get a response. If you do not believe there are people doomed to destruction, how do you deal with the Pharaoh of the Exodus and with Judas?

There is nothing to deal with, each is condemned for their sin, which they chose to do, and they neither repented nor sought forgivenness. God foreknew what each would do, we are not a mystery to Him. He created us.

Therefore they are condemned. This does not pose any issue. Is there a passage you feel denies this?

I can anticipate some of your arguments, maybe all of them, I don't know. One will likely be "God raised up Pharaoh . . .", that is, "caused him to be born, caused him to become Pharaoh, for the express purpose of warring with him then casting him into hell".

Though that's better understood as that God sustained Pharaoh when he would have backed down, been defeated, because God wanted to display the full course of His works. "But God hardened his heart", but first Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

This is not an example of the Bible teaching that God created some people because it pleases Him to toss them into the flames.

You mentioned Judas also, again, we are not a mystery to God, it is nothing for Him to say ahead of time what Judas was going to do, God already knew. But that doesn't mean that God created Judas for the express purpose of stoking hell's fires.

If God created men for the purpose of being condemned to the lake of fire, this would mean defacto that God created them for the purpose to commit those sins which put them there, making God the One who wants men to sin, and makes them for that purpose, that they would sin, and be condemned for it. It would however be God Who would be intentionally, deliberately, originating sin, wickedness, a world of iniquity, for His good pleasure.

And no, I don't think that is true.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

Sounds great, let me know where it is.

Sorry, I forgot. Too many irons in the fire. Lol

Is Predestination What It Seems To Be?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

There is nothing to deal with, each is condemned for their sin, which they chose to do, and they neither repented nor sought forgivenness. God foreknew what each would do, we are not a mystery to Him. He created us.

Therefore they are condemned. This does not pose any issue. Is there a passage you feel denies this?

I can anticipate some of your arguments, maybe all of them, I don't know. One will likely be "God raised up Pharaoh . . .", that is, "caused him to be born, caused him to become Pharaoh, for the express purpose of warring with him then casting him into hell".

Though that's better understood as that God sustained Pharaoh when he would have backed down, been defeated, because God wanted to display the full course of His works. "But God hardened his heart", but first Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

This is not an example of the Bible teaching that God created some people because it pleases Him to toss them into the flames.

You mentioned Judas also, again, we are not a mystery to God, it is nothing for Him to say ahead of time what Judas was going to do, God already knew. But that doesn't mean that God created Judas for the express purpose of stoking hell's fires.

If God created men for the purpose of being condemned to the lake of fire, this would mean defacto that God created them for the purpose to commit those sins which put them there, making God the One who wants men to sin, and makes them for that purpose, that they would sin, and be condemned for it. It would however be God Who would be intentionally, deliberately, originating sin, wickedness, a world of iniquity, for His good pleasure.

And no, I don't think that is true.

Much love!

and i would say you are wrong.

 

[marks]

and i would say you are wrong.

Some do that.

Much love!

 

[atpollard]

They are doomed to destruction because they are ground in which the word of God simply will not take root no matter how much seed God sows in it and waters and fertilizes it. God knows ahead of time who these people are and positions them in history to fulfill his ends (i.e. Pharaoh), just as he does with people in whom the word of God will take root and flourish (i.e. Mary). Everybody in whom the word of God is not retained and growing is, in that state, doomed to destruction. I don't think it wise to overthink it beyond that. The important thing is that people realize the word of God has to be in them and growing in order for them to be saved from destruction when Jesus comes back.

I agree … except ESAU (God hated Esau.)

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Wanna bet? Guarantee you somebody's got you in their sights right now.

somebody. I dont think us calvinists could get any redder in our hair around here.

 

[quietthinker]

Quietthinker, are you suggesting that I have been selective in the verses I chose to highlight?

I realize that God has invited all people to know him. That point cannot be disputed.

Yes I do FHII. however, not to be disparaging, because so do I. The question is, what is the criteria we use to generate our own particular highlighting?

It's possible to thrash around in the scriptures infinitum all the while thinking we are on the right track because we are quoting 'God's word.'
In my view, this is an extremely short sighted and hit and miss approach because it requires we ignore many scriptures which don't suit our highlighting.

How can God's spirit teach us freely when we insist on such short sightedness? We effectively put ourselves in straight jacket setting ourselves up for misunderstanding.

Paul was shaken out of that 'phenomena' with his encounter on the Damascus road in a dramatic way ....although it did take time even for him to sort through the debris.

Most of us don't have dramatic experiences like Paul but we do have that still small voice instructing us to be self honest with scripture......to admit when and how our selection process is hamstrung.

 

[BarneyFife]

RC Sproul said “When I hear preachers stand up and say that 'God loves everybody unconditionally,' I want to scream and say, ‘Wait a minute. Then why does He call us to repent? Why does He call us to come to the cross? Why does He call us to come to Christ?' If God loves everybody unconditionally, then you can do whatever you want and believe whatever you think. And it's just not true that God loves us unconditionally. He's placed an absolute condition by which He requires—He doesn't just invite people to come to His Son—He commands all men everywhere to repent of their sins and to come to Christ.”

There's no need to scream. Parents don't love their children because they behave. They love them because they are of their own procreation. The final destruction of the wicked is even an act of love. God even loves Lucifer. God is love. It's not something He does--it's something He is. He is the perfect embodiment of justice mingled with mercy, as was displayed at the cross. And you can do whatever you want and believe whatever you think. The freedom to worship according to the dictates of conscience, ultimately free from the harassment of temptation, is what the atonement is all about.

 

[quietthinker]

There's no need to scream. Parents don't love their children because they behave. They love them because they are of their own procreation. The final destruction of the wicked is even an act of love. God even loves Lucifer. God is love. It's not something He does--it's something He is. He is the perfect embodiment of justice mingled with mercy, as was displayed at the cross. And you can do whatever you want and believe whatever you think. The freedom to worship according to the dictates of conscience, ultimately free from the harassment of temptation, is what the atonement is all about.

Ultimately it begs the question, does God destroy those who oppose him?
How do we reconcile a God who's reality is love and one who is proactive in the destruction of those who reject him?

 

[BarneyFife]

Ultimately it begs the question, does God destroy those who oppose him?
How do we reconcile a God who's reality is love and one who is proactive in the destruction of those who reject him?

The universe has to be secured from rebellion, eventually.

 

[quietthinker]

The universe has to be secured from rebellion, eventually.

I think so, yes, however, how is that ultimately achieved? ....so I ask myself the question, if God did not insist on arresting the killers of Jesus by using force of arms when the whole sorry murdering scenario was in process, why would he resort to force of arms down the track?....why would he use the tactic of the enemy as if there were no other options?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I agree … except ESAU (God hated Esau.)

How is God's hatred for Esau an exception to what I wrote? ↓↓↓

They are doomed to destruction because they are ground in which the word of God simply will not take root no matter how much seed God sows in it and waters and fertilizes it. God knows ahead of time who these people are and positions them in history to fulfill his ends (i.e. Pharaoh), just as he does with people in whom the word of God will take root and flourish (i.e. Mary). Everybody in whom the word of God is not retained and growing is, in that state, doomed to destruction. I don't think it wise to overthink it beyond that. The important thing is that people realize the word of God has to be in them and growing in order for them to be saved from destruction when Jesus comes back.

 

[BarneyFife]

I think so, yes, however, how is that ultimately achieved? ....so I ask myself the question, if God did not insist on arresting the killers of Jesus by using force of arms when the whole sorry murdering scenario was in process, why would he resort to force of arms down the track?....why would he use the tactic of the enemy as if there were no other options?

God prioritizes principle over policy quite often. He's ordering things so that eventually He'll not only show Himself to be just and merciful, but so that He'll also be seen as such.