Are You a Carnal Christian?

[1stCenturyLady]

Sadly, that's not me.

Are you struggling with a particular mortal sin? I was at the time I finally became born again and freed from that lawless sin. If you want to speak in private you can PM me.

 

[Grailhunter]

The sin nature was created from disobeying a law of God, thus a mortal sin. The sin nature desires to commit lawless sin, not the lesser sins of immature fruit such as impatience. You can still be impatient and it not be from a sin nature. It is "human nature." Otherwise, Jesus lied that He took away our sin, that includes the desire.

The false doctrine of "sin is sin" was created only 500 years ago at the beginning of the Reformation. Before that the church at large knew sin the same way they always did through the first century and before - sins unto death and sins not unto death. The RCC called them rightly "mortal" sins and "venial" sins. This is why Protestants argue against sinlessness, saying we will always have a sin nature. False, and blasphemy against the blood of Jesus.

True sinlessness is merely righteousness, not "sinless perfection." Those two words do not occur at the same time. Jesus takes away our desire to commit lawlessness, thus we are made righteous/sinless. Perfection on the other had is control over all the lesser sins or immature fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 5-11 shows how perfection/holiness/never stumbling can happen in this lifetime. The Church after the apostles have never taught holiness through the gift of the Holy Spirit for all.

My mom was Catholic and my dad Southern Baptist so I understand the whole mortal sin and venial sin thing and I believe some sins are worse than others but I do not go along with the mortal sin thing. Yeshua is the judge and He will decide considering all factors what is forgivable. The sin onto death thing is when sin take you over and that is all you can do. If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it. Genesis 4:7

Before baptism sin is a transgression against God the Father. After Baptism a new person emerges, the old person with his or her sins are forgotten. From then on our sins are between us and Yeshua and if we ask forgiveness He is faithful to forgive us.

 

[amigo de christo]

Less of a sin nature but still we are not perfect. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1st John 1:8 OSAS is a false belief.
And I am not saying do not be a spiritual Christian or walk in the spirit but to get anything physical done it has to be physical. Christ and the Apostles traveled in the physical to spread the Good News. Christ used the spiritual to physically heal people. We run a physical soup kitchen due to the spiritual guidance of the Holy Spirit so the physical and the spiritual go hand and hand.

Many soup kitchens have abandoned giving out the true food .
Make sure yalls never does . The preaching of JESUS has been silenced
in many a food kitchen. ITS all in vain if the hungry hear not OF JESUS
for while it is very good to feed and clothe the poor , THE TRUE MEAT which saves the soul
IS JESUS . SO let us not be as many who might do some good works
But silence the one true g ospel or those who would speak it in said place . That a big NO NO .
NE VER run one out that is speaking of JESUS to these souls . TO do so is to do the work of darkness .
Course i aint saying YOU DO that . JUST reminding us NOT TO DO that .

 

[amigo de christo]

My mom was Catholic and my dad Southern Baptist so I understand the whole mortal sin and venial sin thing and I believe some sins are worse than others but I do not go along with the mortal sin thing. Yeshua is the judge and He will decide considering all factors what is forgivable. The sin onto death thing is when sin take you over and that is all you can do. If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it. Genesis 4:7

Before baptism sin is a transgression against God the Father. After Baptism a new person emerges, the old person with his or her sins are forgotten. From then on our sins are between us and Yeshua and if we ask forgiveness He is faithful to forgive us.

Yes .
But to he or to she who continually justifies his or her sin , WHERE BE THE HOLY GHOST .
So just know there are many false conversions and i was once of those .
I could lip the NAME but boy did i love me sin . I DID NOT KNOW HIM , and was NOT HIS .
THANK GOD he pulled me out of that mess and drew me TO THE TRUE JESUS
and changed my heart . NOW to the trenches one and to the trenches all
Cause i see me a big ol rainbow judge not koran kissing jesus getting preached , AND BELIEVE ME
that one CANNOT SAVE , thus let no man , woman or child follow that jesus or that god .
And beleive me there is huge reason i did not say THAT JESUS , THAT GOD . cause the devil
can lie .

 

[amigo de christo]

Just a reminder .
The devil can wear more than prada , he can wear wool too . so WATCH OUT cause he also has many mins tirs
that can also wear wool .

 

[Lambano]

Actually the word carnal does not appear in the scriptures.

1st Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

1st Corinthians 3:3
for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

!st Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?

“Carnal” is Latin for “fleshly”. And the sins described as “fleshly” in the passages quoted above are not sexual in nature but rather sins of PRIDE, egotism, and self-centeredness. And I submit that those kinds of sins don’t go away easily and have to be beaten down every day.

 

[LoveYeshua]

There's a discussion between @Biblica and myself on a different thread.

He uses the expression: Carnal Christian

I'm of the opinion that there's no such person as a Carnal Christian.

Paul said:

Galatians 5:17
17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Romans 8:8
8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 1:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

1 Corinthians is a warning to those that are still on milk and not on solid food.
Paul is telling them that they're FLESHLY and are walking like mere men....
Paul states that we are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.

Carnal = Flesh


I'd really like to hear from:
@JLB
@LoveYeshua
@ProDeo
@Rightglory
@Lambano
@shepherdsword

I apologize to others whose theology I respect but have forgotten at the moment.

there are no true carnal person that can call themselves a christian, once the Holy Spirit dwells in us we become victors over the flesh and can dismiss it's callings. also i remember;
Genesis 4:7: Sin desires to control you, but you must rule over it.

Blessings G.G.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

My mom was Catholic and my dad Southern Baptist so I understand the whole mortal sin and venial sin thing and I believe some sins are worse than others but I do not go along with the mortal sin thing. Yeshua is the judge and He will decide considering all factors what is forgivable. The sin onto death thing is when sin take you over and that is all you can do. If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it. Genesis 4:7

Before baptism sin is a transgression against God the Father. After Baptism a new person emerges, the old person with his or her sins are forgotten. From then on our sins are between us and Yeshua and if we ask forgiveness He is faithful to forgive us.

The correctness of sin unto death and sins not unto death are Scriptural. 1 John 5:16-17 and Numbers 15:22-36. Paul in 2 Cor. 3 shows that the Ten Commandments is the "ministry of death." In Numbers there were no sacrifices for those who broke the law (lawlessness/sins unto death), and we see in verse 36 they stoned a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath/the fourth commandment.

From my own personal experience when I was finally filled with the Holy Spirit I felt a dark heaviness leave my body, and the sin of adultery left me and I was free. I also felt the outpouring of the Holy Spirit from my head to my feet and inside filling me up. From then on I could hear God's voice in my head clearly and 100% of my prayers from then on were answered. For the 30 years prior, not one prayer was ever answered, making me question if God even existed. A couple months later I heard God say to me, "Now be baptized in water." So I did. It was the fourth time in my life I was baptized! So it is my belief that baptism in water is after you have a clear conscience, even though Acts 2:38 says otherwise. 1 Peter 3:21 agrees with me.

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It is after we are free from sin that we have a good conscience. So that is when we are to be baptized in water.

 

[Grailhunter]

The correctness of sin unto death and sins not unto death are Scriptural. 1 John 5:16-17 and Numbers 15:22-36. Paul in 2 Cor. 3 shows that the Ten Commandments is the "ministry of death." In Numbers there were no sacrifices for those who broke the law (lawlessness/sins unto death), and we see in verse 36 they stoned a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath/the fourth commandment.

From my own personal experience when I was finally filled with the Holy Spirit I felt a dark heaviness leave my body, and the sin of adultery left me and I was free. I also felt the outpouring of the Holy Spirit from my head to my feet and inside filling me up. From then on I could hear God's voice in my head clearly and 100% of my prayers from then on were answered. For the 30 years prior, not one prayer was ever answered, making me question if God even existed. A couple months later I heard God say to me, "Now be baptized in water." So I did. It was the fourth time in my life I was baptized! So it is my belief that baptism in water is after you have a clear conscience, even though Acts 2:38 says otherwise. 1 Peter 3:21 agrees with me.

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It is after we are free from sin that we have a good conscience. So that is when we are to be baptized in water.

Free from sin???
I did not say that sin onto death was not scriptural.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm of the opinion that there's no such person as a Carnal Christian.

Paul said:

Galatians 5:17
17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Romans 8:8
8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 1:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

1 Corinthians is a warning to those that are still on milk and not on solid food.
Paul is telling them that they're FLESHLY and are walking like mere men....
Paul states that we are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.

Carnal = Flesh

Because Christiandom has become over-spiritualized, they have:

1. Rejected our soulful needs
2. Deemed everything of the body, flesh, carnal and sinful.

Notice the context of "Galatians 5:17" is "desires" of the flesh, not needs of the body. Big difference. Jesus said man does not live on bread alone. This is a soulful observation. It acknowledges our need for bread to live. Attending to this need is not sinful.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Many soup kitchens have abandoned giving out the true food .
Make sure yalls never does . The preaching of JESUS has been silenced
in many a food kitchen. ITS all in vain if the hungry hear not OF JESUS
for while it is very good to feed and clothe the poor , THE TRUE MEAT which saves the soul
IS JESUS . SO let us not be as many who might do some good works
But silence the one true g ospel or those who would speak it in said place . That a big NO NO .
NE VER run one out that is speaking of JESUS to these souls . TO do so is to do the work of darkness .
Course i aint saying YOU DO that . JUST reminding us NOT TO DO that .

@amigo de christo
This is so true. I know of at least one church, completely full of abomination, yet likes to feed food to the poor, but the gospel is silenced. Someone I know once walked in that place holding a bible a few years ago and got yelled at.

 

[GodsGrace]

With all due respect GodsGrace be careful of labels.
Carnel is a negative term that distorts the actual topic.
Should we be a physical Christian or a spiritual Christian?

Thanks for replying GH.

The other member is using the word carnal....I don't use that word.
I like SINFUL NATURE...it better explains the carnal.

I believe we are BOTH a physical Christian and a Spiritual Christian because
we are both physical and spiritual.

But isn't our spiritual part supposed to put the physical part under submission?
Paul says:

Colossians 3:5-10
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-


All those acts he speaks of are caused by our sinful nature THROUGH the flesh...
but which we are to "put away".

I believe we should be both.
We should have belief and faith in Yeshua.
We should physically emulate Yeshua.
Like James explained....If we see someone naked and cold and hungry.....Saying to them, Cheer up and have faith in Yeshua is not the thing to do. We should physically help them and minister to their spiritual needs.
To walk in the spirit is to follow and think the ways of Christ but still one physical foot in front of the other. The terms overlap between reality of the physical and thought and actions.

Yes. I think the word carnal and physical is going to cause some problems which is why I posted to the other member that the words CARNAL CHRISTIAN are not only not biblical but they conflict in meaning.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it’s unfortunate that Paul used the Greek word sarx (“flesh”) to represent the human sin-nature. It brings into play the Gnostic concept that all matter and all things in God’s Creation are inherently evil. This is a construct of first century pagan philosophy that John had to address:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 2:7)

I think the NIV got it right by translating sarx as “sin nature” when contextually appropriate.

I agree 100%.
However, we shouldn't be focusing on the WORD but on its concept.

I think the problem lies here.

Carnal come from the latin, as you've state, which means MEAT.
Meat means our flesh.

But our flesh is not what makes us sin...
we sin THROUGH the flesh.

It's, indeed, our sin nature that makes us sin.
This is contextually correct, as you've stated.

However, what it's called does not change what it is.
CARNAL
FLESH
CONCUPISCENSE
SIN NATURE

It all means the same: that which induces us to sin.

Saying a Christian is a CARNAL CHRISTIAN is like saying that a person is Christian but is living in the sin nature.

It's a contradiction in terms...
One cannot be both carnal and Christian.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4


Paul teaches that the reason they are carnal, still functioning by their flesh (sin) nature is they follow after and thus identify with (the teachings of) men, which of course the natural by product of this is strife and divisions.

Agreed.
Paul is actually warning the Corinthians that they do have to mature and stop drinking only milk.

A good example of this today is those who label themselves as “Calvinist’s” or “Catholics” or any number of “labels” that represent the embodiment of the teachings of men.

This is correct. I know that in the CC the aim is to bring someone into that church....
instead it should be to bring them to Jesus.
A major mistake that they make and why their catechism classes for children do not function well.

Christian means follower of Christ; a follower of the lifestyle and teachings of Christ.

Agreed - I'd to highlight THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

If we want to be a follower of Jesus we should know His teachings.

It would seem that to be a FOLLOWER should be sufficient in explanation...
but I find that it is NOT.

He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
1 John 2:6

Amen.

We cannot be a follower of Jesus and be living in a carnal manner at the same time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ya know....
There is an issue with most English speakers....
It's a combination of hubris and self-righteousness. AKA no ability to admit they are currently wrong. They might admit that they WERE wrong and possibly MIGHT be wrong in the future at some indeterminate point in time....but currently it's impossible for them to be wrong at the moment of questioning.

So....
The possibility of people admitting to being a "carnal" Christian is not in the cards of possibility.

Same with Gnostics. I've seen people openly admit to believing and acting upon every tenet of Gnosticism but refuse the title at the same time.

Shoot....some people are still proud of being Calvinistic, Dispensationalist, and other horrible things. But not carnal or nominal.

Thanks for posting John.
Right. What came to mind is members that will promise up and down that they are not calvinist and yet proclaim, in every post, exactly what calvinism teaches!

I have to agree with you that it is not possible to be both Christian and carnal at the same time.

 

[Lambano]

Saying a Christian is a CARNAL CHRISTIAN is like saying that a person is Christian but is living in the sin nature.

It's a contradiction in terms...
One cannot be both carnal and Christian.

Maybe you need to define what you mean by a “Carnal Christian”. I understand it to mean a Christian who is influenced by “the flesh, which means every single one of us to some extent. Those who claim to have “walked in the Spirit” for an extended period of time describe it like an altered state of consciousness, it was not completely volitional, and it was not permanent. If you claim that we lose our identity as a "Christian" every time we yield to the desires of the flesh or sin nature, you're bringing up a whole set of psychological and pastoral problems.

 

[mailmandan]

1st John 1:8 OSAS is a false belief.

In 1 John 1:9, we read - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" IN CONTRAST to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

I don't see this as a OSAS vs. NOSAS issue. To say that we "have no sin or have not sinned, deceive ourselves, the truth is not in us, make God out to be a liar and His word is not in us" is not descriptive of children of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thanks for replying GH.

The other member is using the word carnal....I don't use that word.
I like SINFUL NATURE...it better explains the carnal.

I believe we are BOTH a physical Christian and a Spiritual Christian because
we are both physical and spiritual.

But isn't our spiritual part supposed to put the physical part under submission?
Paul says:

Colossians 3:5-10
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-


All those acts he speaks of are caused by our sinful nature THROUGH the flesh...
but which we are to "put away".

Yes. I think the word carnal and physical is going to cause some problems which is why I posted to the other member that the words CARNAL CHRISTIAN are not only not biblical but they conflict in meaning.

Salutations.....Merry Christmas

OK How do I word this?.....Spiritual and physical......Applying Christianity in the spiritual and physical and our spiritual and physical nature. As long as we have blood pumping through our veins we are physical. Our needs and wants and desires and passions and understandings are what we struggle with. With Bibles in hand we attempt to understand the spiritual and apply it to the physical. Without the spiritual there is no hope, without the physical nothing matters.

Christians have a tendency to consider our wants and desires and passions as evil......wrong thinking. The devil did not give those to us......he did not give us anything. God gave us our wants and desires and passions. Without them Adam would have never left the riverbank, he just would have kept on fishing and Eve would have been left alone to fend for herself. And the human race would have ended there, no babies and no cities. So yes without our wants and desires and passions there would be not sin, but then nothing would happen, good or bad.

So our job is to understand our wants and desires and passions. And to understand sin.....Sin is at our door and it desires to have us....Genesis 4:7 And we must master our wants and desires and passions so that sin does not creep in. The leaven in the mix, it has to be there and we must be master over it.

The Apostle Paul explained the spiritual....the meat of theology. And it is for us to apply that spiritual to our lives and let it guide our physical actions. Our thoughts and actions....the spiritual to guide our wants and desires and actions.....How do we do that? Prayer and walking with Yeshua everyday, never leaving your thoughts.

Never leaving our thoughts is the key.....for living a spiritual life.

My motto.....Be good and do good.....in short.

 

[Lambano]

I hear some claim that the proclivity to sin completely and permanently goes away; I claim that goes against 2000 years of Church experience. There’s a reason why confession of sins is an inter-denominational rite. I don’t think people understand how deep pride and self-centeredness runs, or how often we fail to do the right thing, like loving your neighbor as yourself. No, as long as we don't do the really bad $#*!, like murder and adultery, being jealous and factional (and self-righteous) is not being carnal.

 

[Lambano]

Now to get to the “meat” of the topic. "The world, the flesh, and the Devil" (Ephesians 2:1-3 reference) are the sources of temptation for the Christian, and those don't go away when you become a Christian. We have to fight it, and yes, we are going to stumble and fall (despite what some people self-righteously claim). If you want to characterize someone's life by their failures with the label "carnal", go ahead. Just watch your own pride.

This is what it boils down to: Defining someone as "carnal" is effectively characterizing how often and how hard they fall. As an engineer who writes specs, I have to ask, "How often is too often, and how hard is too hard?"