Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Last year when I wrote that, it was about the Gospel reaching the world and it has. If you ask someone on the street today if they believe in God, and they said no. Then you can remind them of all the church's, crosses, Jesus saves signs, billboards, and radio ads, especially during Christmas season, etc., everywhere, and then they would have to "acknowledge" the witness of the bible, God, and Jesus on the Cross to them from all the openly displayed signs all over the world. Then they have no excuse on Judgement Day.

Millions of people acknowledge God without necessarily adhere to all doctrines about Jesus that you may adhere to.
That's where we should think if there is a sort of online examination of Theology that people must take and pass in order to avoid hell.
To me, a non-Christian, and also to many Christians, holding the right doctrines is not what makes your neighbor enter heaven.

 

[Rockerduck]

Millions of people acknowledge God without necessarily adhere to all doctrines about Jesus that you may adhere to.
That's where we should think if there is a sort of online examination of Theology that people must take and pass in order to avoid hell.
To me, a non-Christian, and also to many Christians, holding the right doctrines is not what makes your neighbor enter heaven.

I didn't mention doctrines or theology, only the witness. God saves people who have never read the bible, like me. The only requirement for heaven is believing, and having faith in the crucified, resurrected, and Glorified Jesus Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I didn't mention doctrines or theology, only the witness.

Well, you did.
You mentioned doctrines and theology.
That's why I asked.

Perhaps I can make myself clearer with an example:

Imagine a Jew who had problems with alcohol and beating his wife.
He repents, and God transform his life to make from him a Jew that does not drink and is kind and gentle with his wife.
Such Jew has witnessed the transformative power of God. The whole family has witnessed that.
But that Jew does not have the specific beliefs about Jesus that you have.

 

[Rockerduck]

Well, you are.
You are mentioning doctrines and theology.
That's why I asked.

Perhaps I can make myself clearer with an example:

Imagine a Jew who had problems with alcohol and beating his wife.
He repents, and God transform his life to make from him a Jew that does not drink and is kind and gentle with his wife.
Such Jew has witnessed the transformative power of God. The whole family has witnessed that.
But that Jew does not have the specific beliefs about Jesus that you have.

Only the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can change a man.
Samuel tells Saul that he will receive the Holy Spirit and be changed.

1 Samuel 10:6 - Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.

After Jesus died on the Cross, everyone can receive the Holy Spirit through the saving power of Jesus Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Only the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can change a man.

Exactly.
That's why we can attest that the Holy Spirit has changed the man of my example.
It would have been impossible for Satan to operate a transformation of the life of this man.

 

[Titus]

The destruction is everlasting; the destruction process isn’t.

Once a person has been destroyed in the lake of fire, they cease to exist.

Destruction in the lake of fire is an extermination event. It is the second death from which there is no recovery.

So you deny suffering in hell is everlasting suffering. It ends where the person sent to hell is totally destroyed then their suffering ends correct?

 

[Matthias]

So you deny suffering in hell is everlasting suffering. It ends where the person sent to hell is totally destroyed then their suffering ends correct?

Once the fire and worm consumes, there is no more suffering.

I believe that God will annihilate the wicked, not torture them for eternity.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Once the fire and worm consumes, there is no more suffering.

Hi Matthias

I’d like to understand better your perspective.
What would be the purpose of such transient suffering, then?
I mean, God could destroy those souls instantly with zero suffering.

 

[Matthias]

Hi Matthias

What would be the purpose of such transient suffering, then?
I mean, God could destroy those souls instantly with zero suffering.

The individuals will know that they haven’t escaped justice.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The individuals will know that they haven’t escaped justice.

Bear with me a little more, Matthias…

What would be the purpose of knowing they haven’t escaped justice, if they are not going to appreciate justice, nor practice justice?
Im asking this because I understand that God allows us to know things, to experience things, so that we do something with such knowledge.

For example, the prodigal son learned something from his suffering.
God allowed Israel to be invaded and conquered by its enemies to learn something.

 

[Matthias]

@Titus do you believe God has promised the gift of immortality to the wicked?

 

[Matthias]

Bear with me a little more, Matthias…

What would be the purpose of knowing they haven’t escaped justice, if they are not going to appreciate justice, nor practice justice?

God is a God of justice. The wicked don’t believe it. The righteous do.

God will not be mocked.

Like all criminals, they will receive the punishment which God has said he will impose on them - the second death in the lake of fire.

The first death won’t be a refugee for the wicked. They didn’t believe God. They will.

Will there be witnesses? Yes.

Those who were harmed by the wicked will know that the righteous judge has delivered the justice which they sought and he promised.

Do you not see this in the Bible?

Im asking this because I understand that God allows us to know things, to experience things, so that we do something with such knowledge.

For example, the prodigal son learned something from his suffering.
God allowed Israel to be invaded and conquered by its enemies to learn something.

 

[Rockerduck]

Bear with me a little more, Matthias…

What would be the purpose of knowing they haven’t escaped justice, if they are not going to appreciate justice, nor practice justice?
Im asking this because I understand that God allows us to know things, to experience things, so that we do something with such knowledge.

For example, the prodigal son learned something from his suffering.
God allowed Israel to be invaded and conquered by its enemies to learn something.

As a man or woman we have a finite mind, God is infinite. We cannot know God's ways. This applies to your question "what would be the purpose of knowing", the unsaved don't know. In your examples, remember God was "hands on", in Israel. Knowing everything happening. That's why Jesus told parables of Jewish events. Now, after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It all changed. Satan is the god of this world and God is hands off. He sent His son Jesus to get us out of Satan's world, for all that accept His invitation.

 

[Titus]

@Titus do you believe God has promised the gift of immortality to the wicked?

Hell-fire is eternal. I would not define that as a gift.
Therefore immorality in hell is not a gift.

God said we are created in His image,
Genesis 1:27,
- God created man in His own image, in the image of God created he him, Male and female created He them.

God doesn't cease to exist. That is the image of God that man is created. When God gives us life we will never cease to exist. In heaven or hell

 

[Matthias]

Hell-fire is eternal. I would not define that as a gift.
Therefore immorality in hell is not a gift.

God said we are created in His image,
Genesis 1:27,
- God created man in His own image, in the image of God created he him, Male and female created He them.

God doesn't cease to exist. That is the image of God that man is created. When God gives us life we will never cease to exist. In heaven or hell

Thanks.

What I was getting at is that you believe (apparently) that all of mankind is innately immortal. I don’t. I believe in conditional immortality.

For those who believe all of mankind is inherently immortal, and seeing in scripture that the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire from which there is no return, the logic of eternal conscious torment is comprehensible -> immortal persons cannot die.

It is a mortal soul perspective (annihilation) vs. an immortal soul perspective (conscious eternal torment)

P.S.

Are you familiar with conditional immortality?

The linked article (from a Christian ministry source which, you will see, does not believe in conditional immortality) gives a brief but fair summary of conditionalism.

What is conditional immortality? | GotQuestions.org

What is conditional immortality? What is a conditionalist? What is conditionalism, and what do conditionalists believe? Is conditional immortality / annihilationism a heresy?

www.gotquestions.org

For an extensive look at conditional immortality, I highly recommend The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, written by LeRoy Edwin Froom. It is a massive two-volume work which can be read at no cost online. I’m providing the links to both volumes for all who may be interested in reading it.

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Books/CFOOF1966-V01.pdf

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Books/CFOOF1965-V02.pdf

 

[Matthias]

“The wages paid by sin, you see, are death; but God’s free gift is the life of the age to come, in the Messiah, Jesus our Lord.”

(Romans 6:23, NTFE)

 

[Matthias]

“He is the only one who possesses immortality; he lives in unapproachable light; no human being has seen him, or can see him. To him be eternal honor and power, Amen!”

(1 Timothy 6:17, NTFE)

 

[Matthias]

My favorite class, hands down, in college was taught by a trinitarian professor (Dr. John Roller) who believes in conditional immortality. I searched for and found a video he posted on YouTube.

The professor documents the shift which occurred in the church - easily seen and traced in the writings of the early Church Fathers - from belief in conditional immortality to belief in innate immortality.

 

[Titus]

from which there is no return, the logic of eternal conscious torment is comprehensible -> immortal persons cannot die.

Bible word for death is not the same as in a word dictionary.
Can you use your Bible to show what death means in the Scriptures when referring to the death of the wicked? What is kind of death does sin cause?

 

[RLT63]

Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell.
Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick.

If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there.

I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't send them to Hell, they sent themselves there."
Did you do anything to stop them? Did you convince them otherwise?
Did you live a life that made Christ attractive? I see...

Fortunately for me, I don't believe in a forever-burning Hell. Not really my problem.
Do you believe in a forever-burning Hell? (nope) If you did...

Or maybe you don't really love your neighbors. Seems to go hand-in-hand.

I’m not sure what I believe about Hell anymore. I have a book, Four Views On Hell and I’m not sure which view best represents the Biblical model. I have a hard time understanding why a person who lives 80 to 100 years at most would suffer for eternity. One thing I believe about Hell is that I don’t want to go there.