Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Matthew 13:58 comes to mind. Also the voice from the cloud commanding, “Listen to him!” (Luke 9:35).

The only way to God is through the Messiah.

God was not asking a question on theology.
God was asking people to listen to Jesus.
And what Jesus said about forgiveness?
Well, Jesus said something important about how to ask for forgiveness, and on what grounds to expect mercy from God.
We should listen to what he said on the subject.

 

[Matthias]

Death from sin means seperation from God.

Once again, the ultimate separation from God is to no longer exist. A person reduced to smoke and ashes no longer has any connection whatsoever to God.

Adam did not cease to exist when God told him he would die.

Adam is dead and in the grave. He is sleeping in the dust of the earth, awaiting resurrection. The Messiah will decide whether or not he will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Bible death from sin is seperation from God not ceasing to exist.

The wicked aren’t entirely separated from God while they’re alive. God still blesses them and longs for them to repent. That won’t be the case if they choose not to repent and are thrown into the fire that consumes.

Give the Bible passage that teaches your idea of death from sin?

That is why I asked if you were familiar with conditional immortality. As you don’t seem to be, I’ve been giving them and will continue to give them.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let’s look at a second example: “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.“ (Luke 18:19).

Where is here the theological question put as a condition to receive the pardon, grace or mercy from God?
Jesus is asking the question and He himself is providing the answer.

As a matter of fact, Jesus told the young rich man that, in order to inherit eternal life, he should sell everything and give it to the poor, not adhere to a specific doctrine.

A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

 

[Matthias]

God was not asking a question on theology.
God was asking people to listen to Jesus.

You skipped over Jesus not being able to perform many miracles because of their unbelief. Their nelief in what? That’s a theological question.

What happens when they don’t listen to Jesus?

And what Jesus said about forgiveness?
Well, Jesus said something important about how to ask for forgiveness, and on what grounds to expect mercy from God.
We should listen to what he said on the subject.

Agreed.

 

[Matthias]

Where is here the theological question put as a condition to receive the pardon, grace or mercy from God?
Jesus is asking the question and He himself is providing the answer.

A theological question and a theological answer. It is connected with Jesus’ messianic claim.

There are consequences for those who refuse to believe and acknowledge that Jesus is God’s anointed one.

As a matter of fact, Jesus told the young rich man that, in order to inherit eternal life, he should sell everything and give it to the poor, not adhere to a specific doctrine.

A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

 

[Matthias]

We are spiritually dead, alienated from God as a non believer.

That’s right, but that‘s a metaphorical application of death. We might say that they are, to use a figure of speech, “dead men walking.” They have no future unless they repent. They will literally be cut off from God.

Are they literally cut off from God now? I don’t think so. God still cares for them, whether they acknowledge him or not.

David asked where he could go to escape from God’s presence (Psalm 139:7). As long as David exists, he cannot escape God’s presence. The same is true with us.

That brings us to the place of final destruction of the wicked: the lake of fire. The second death.

Once they are destroyed they cease to exist forever. There is no greater separation from God. They are no longer in his care. God will have put them finally and forever out of their misery, having dealt justly and compassionately with them.

Alternatively, once they are destroyed (consciously tortured in fire and with immortal worms gnawing at them but not consuming them) if they continue to exist then they are not separated from God‘s presence. They are still in his care - and his care is no longer benevolent, to put it mildly.

Does the punishment fit the crime?

Will God preside over these wicked (and now miserable beyond imagination) people forever?

Can you picture God patiently dealing with them during their natural lifetime? Easily, I would think. He wants all men to repent, turn to him, and be saved.

Can you picture God tormenting them endlessly when they don't? I don’t know about you but I don’t see that as being compatible with God’s character. It reminds me, though it pales in comparison, of the character of the worst tyrants in the history of mankind.

Do you have family, friends and acquaintances who died unsaved? I do.

God will have them consciously tormented without respite? For a week, a month, a year, a thousand years, a million years, a billion years, a trillion years? That’s not even a drop in the bucket of eternity.

That’s also not the God whom I see in scripture.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You asked a very good question.

A third example: Jesus and the Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:21-28).

Actually, this is an extraordinary example of Jesus NOT expecting the right answer to theological questions as a condition to forgive or heal.
The Canaanite woman, by being a canaanite, and not a Jew, was still less likely to have "the right doctrine" about Jehovah, let alone about the Messiah. But that didn't matter to Jesus.

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A theological question and a theological answer. It is connected with Jesus’ messianic claim.

Still, Jesus didn't expect the rich man to provide the "correct" answer in order to save him. Did He?
He didn't inquire what the young man believed about Jesus being the Messiah, or the meaning of being a Messiah

There is no single hint that the condition for eternal life for that young man depended on whether he confessed that Jesus was God, Elijah, John the Baptist reincarnated, or any other prophet. It did not depend on believing any specifics about Jesus preexistence, incarnation, atonement, resurrection or Second Coming.

The text just does not point to that. Points to a specific condition: "Go and sell everything, and give it to the poor"

 

[Matthias]

Actually, this is an extraordinary example of Jesus NOT expecting the right answer to theological questions as a condition to forgive or heal.
The Canaanite woman, by being a canaanite, and not a Jew, was still less likely to have "the right doctrine" about Jehovah, let alone about the Messiah. But that didn't matter to Jesus.

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Thanks. He probably didn’t expect the right answer, but he got it: Jesus is the lord, Son of David -> the Messiah.

The theology test is obvious to me. He didn’t grant her request immediately. That the woman passed the test is also obvious from the final response of Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

Still, Jesus didn't expect the rich man to provide the "correct" answer in order to save him. Did He?

He would either have expected his fellow Jew to know the correct answer or become persuaded of it through his teaching.

He didn't inquire what the young man believed about Jesus being the Messiah, or the meaning of being a Messiah

I think Jesus is more subtle than you believe him to be.

There is no single hint that the condition for eternal life for that young man depended on whether he confessed that Jesus was God, Elijah, John the Baptist reincarnated, or any other prophet. It did not depend on believing any specifics about Jesus preexistence, incarnation, atonement, resurrection or Second Coming.

The words which Jesus spoke are spirit and life. To believe in Jesus is to believe what he taught, what he preached, what he did, and who he is.

Obedience is required for salvation.

The text just does not point to that. Points to a specific condition: "Go and sell everything, and give it to the poor"

Teaching which is tailored to the man he was speaking with.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks. He probably didn’t expect the right answer, but he got it: Jesus is the lord, Son of David -> the Messiah.

The theology test is obvious to me. He didn’t grant her request immediately. That the woman passed the test is also obvious from the final response of Jesus.

Perhaps that woman got it "right" that time... or perhaps only partially right, as the concept of being "Son of David" or "Messiah", or "Lord" could have been very different from the concept that you, or me, or some other friend of us have. We don't know, but I don't think that woman, most likely illiterate as all ladies of that time, and not a Jew, knew a lot about the Torah.

Still, regardless of how "orthodox" was the woman's view on Jesus, was orthodoxy the reason why Jesus decided to help her?

If the woman had turned back disappointed after Jesus said "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs", would that woman have obtained what she wanted?
Wasn't it the insistence, the humility of that woman who was willing to be considered a dog, what made her obtain what she desired?
Otherwise, Jesus would have not needed to go all the way to explaining that He had been sent to the children of Israel.
Once Jesus had heard her to call Him "Lord", "Son of David" he would have healed her daughter.

In conclusion, Jesus was testing her faith on the basis of her persistence, her humbleness, not on the basis of her doctrinal orthodoxy.

 

[Matthias]

Perhaps that woman got it right that time... or partially right, as the concept of being "Son of David" or "Messiah", or "Lord" could have been very different from the concept that you, or me, or some other friend of us have. We don't know, but I don't think that woman, most likely illiterate as all ladies of that time, and not a Jew, knew a lot about the Torah.

Still, regardless of how "orthodox" was the woman's view on Jesus, was orthodoxy the reason why Jesus decided to help her?

If the woman had turned back disappointed after Jesus said "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs", would that woman have obtained what she wanted?
Wasn't it the insistence, the humility of that woman who was willing to be considered a dog, what made her obtain what she desired?
Otherwise, Jesus would have not needed to go all the way to explaining that He had been sent to the children of Israel.
Once Jesus had heard her to call Him "Lord", "Son of David" he would have healed her daughter.

Her persistence wasn’t divorced from her theology, nor from his.

 

[Matthias]

@Poncho Frijoles does Baha’i doctrine teach that everyone will be saved?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think Jesus is more subtle than you believe him to be.

Perhaps you will agree with me that being forgiven by God is of utmost importance. It is not a trivial topic in the Scriptures.
True repentance, and God's forgiveness, are at the core of the Gospel. They mean salvation.
Can we imagine people in heaven who were not forgiven? Can we imagine people in hell who were forgiven?

Therefore, if there is any "condition" that we need to meet in order to be forgiven, we would be very interested in knowing it.
If being forgiven by God depended on confessing or adhering to certain doctrines, Jesus would have left that very, very clear.

However, what we hear from Jesus is a totally different thing.
He is explicit about this:

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mathew 6:15)

 

[Dan Clarkston]

If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there.

Man is without excuse so on judgement day they are solely responsible for rejecting the Lord.

 

[Matthias]

Perhaps you will agree with me that being forgiven by God is of utmost importance. It is not a trivial topic in the Scriptures.

Yes.

True repentance, and God's forgiveness, are at the core of the Gospel. They mean salvation.
Can we imagine people in heaven who were not forgiven? Can we imagine people in hell who were forgiven?

I don’t believe the Bible teaches that people go to heaven. The kingdom of God will be established on the earth when Jesus returns. Those who belong to him will be either resurrected to immortal life when he returns or, for those who are still living when he returns, changed in an instant from mortal to immortal, and reign with him here.

Therefore, if there is any "condition" that I need to meet in order to be forgiven, we would be very interested in knowing it.

Acts 8:12 is a beautiful example of how people are saved. I would also direct your attention to the parable of the sower.

If being forgiven by God depended on confessing or adhering to certain doctrines, Jesus would have left that very, very clear.

It is very, very clear to me that he did.

However, what we hear from Jesus is a totally different thing.
He is explicit about this:

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mathew 6:15)

That is part of his doctrine but not the whole of it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Poncho Frijoles does Baha’i doctrine teach that everyone will be saved?

Yes, my friend.
But let me explain a couple of concepts that are somewhat different in our perspective from the perspective of our Christian brothers and sisters.

1. When we think in "salvation" we are thinking in going from a state of being separated from God (hell) to a state of being with God (heaven).

2. Since the purpose of God is that everyone is saved (2 P 3:9), and God is All Powerful and has all the wisdom and time, his purpose will not be frustrated. His victory implies that everyone will bow their knee, voluntarily.
He will do whatever he has to do to attract every single soul to Him, voluntarily. As the shepherd of the parable, He is willing to leave his 99 sheep safe to go after one single sheep... and He will bring it safe and happy to the fold.

Certainly, I agree that wicked people cannot enter heaven... as wicked people. Their wickedness has to be destroyed, eliminated.
Punishment (hell) is a tool in God's hands to fulfill His plan of salvation making wicked people understand the rationale of their suffering, their impotence, and the need of salvation. But in the end... Christ saves, as his ultimate mission is not to condemn but to save.

So, to me, every punishment is the expression not only of God's justice, but of God's love.
"because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in" (Proverbs 3:12)
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. (Revelation 3:19)

In the end, I believe that God will be "everything in everyone" (1 Cor 15:28)

 

[Ritajanice]

That’s right, but that‘s a metaphorical application of death. We might say that they are, to use a figure of speech, “dead men walking.” They have no future unless they repent. They will literally be cut off from God.

Are they literally cut off from God now? I don’t think so. God still cares for them, whether they acknowledge him or not.

David asked where he could go to escape from God’s presence (Psalm 139:7). As long as David exists, he cannot escape God’s presence. The same is true with us.

That brings us to the place of final destruction of the wicked: the lake of fire. The second death.

Once they are destroyed they cease to exist forever. There is no greater separation from God. They are no longer in his care. God will have put them finally and forever out of their misery, having dealt justly and compassionately with them.

Alternatively, once they are destroyed (consciously tortured in fire and with immortal worms gnawing at them but not consuming them) if they continue to exist then they are not separated from God‘s presence. They are still in his care - and his care is no longer benevolent, to put it mildly.

Does the punishment fit the crime?

Will God preside over these wicked (and now miserable beyond imagination) people forever?

Can you picture God patiently dealing with them during their natural lifetime? Easily, I would think. He wants all men to repent, turn to him, and be saved.

Can you picture God tormenting them endlessly when they don't? I don’t know about you but I don’t see that as being compatible with God’s character. It reminds me, though it pales in comparison, of the character of the worst tyrants in the history of mankind.

Do you have family, friends and acquaintances who died unsaved? I do.

God will have them consciously tormented without respite? For a week, a month, a year, a thousand years, a million years, a billion years, a trillion years? That’s not even a drop in the bucket of eternity.

That’s also not the God whom I see in scripture.

We are cut off from God in our spirit, we are not reunited back to God, not until we are Born OF The Spirit, we need the “ Living “ spiritual rebirth ....that only the Living Holy Spirit can do, he brings our spirit Alive in Christ.....very easy to understand, ...we are Born Again by the Living Holy Spirit, who is very much Alive and is Gods witness.

The Holy Spirit is the one who witnesses/ testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...He is very much Alive and Active in our hearts making us/ working in our hearts to become the image of Jesus, we are Gods spiritual children and have been adopted into his family.

God is Spirit, we communicate with God through our spirit, His witness the Holy Spirit does the will of the Father through us ....

A Born Again will grow, mature and flourish, into the image of Jesus, they will bear the fruit of Jesus, because they have been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever.

That seed the Living seed, who is the Holy Spirit liveth and abideth forever in our hearts, that is where he indwells, our body is a temple as we house the Holy Spirit.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, my friend.

Thank you. That’s compatible with universalism but incompatible with the teaching of the Bible.

But let me explain a couple of concepts that are somewhat different in our perspective from the perspective of our Christian brothers and sisters.

1. When we think in "salvation" we are thinking in going from a state of being separated from God (hell) to a state of being with God (heaven).

2. Since the purpose of God is that everyone is saved (2 P 3:9), and God is All Powerful and has all the wisdom and time, his purpose will not be frustrated. His victory implies that everyone will bow their knee, voluntarily.
He will do whatever he has to do to attract every single soul to Him, voluntarily. As the shepherd of the parable, He is willing to leave his 99 sheep safe to go after one single sheep... and He will bring it safe and happy to the fold.

Certainly, I agree that wicked people cannot enter heaven... as wicked people. Their wickedness has to be destroyed, eliminated.
Punishment (hell) is a tool in God's hands to fulfill His plan of salvation. Christ saves, as his ultimate mission is not to condemn but to save.

To me, every punishment is the expression not only of God's justice, but of God's love.
"because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in" (Proverbs 3:12)

In the end, God will be "everything in everyone" (1 Cor 15:28)

Just acknowledging that I‘ve read your interpretation of the passages you selected.

Do you also interpret passages from the holy books of other religions?

If so, do you see them all as being consistent and fully compatible with one another?

 

[Matthias]

We are cut off from God in our spirit, we are not reunited back to God, not until we are Born OF The Spirit, we need the “ Living “ spiritual rebirth ....that only the Living Holy Spirit can do, he brings our spirit Alive in Christ.....very easy to understand, ...we are Born Again by the Living Holy Spirit, who is very much Alive and is Gods witness.

The Holy Spirit is the one who witnesses/ testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...He is very much Alive and Active in our hearts making us/ working in our hearts to become the image of Jesus, we are Gods spiritual and have been adopted into his family.

God is Spirit, we communicate with God through our spirit, His witness the Holy Spirit does the will of the Father through us ....

Thanks. What do you think will happen to those who are judged and then thrown into the lake of fire?