Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?

[Ritajanice]

Thanks. What do you think will happen to those who are judged and then thrown into the lake of fire?

To be honest, I haven’t had that heart revelation yet...God has always spoken to my heart,..then I check what I believe him to be saying to me with his written word.

I know nothing of the Lake Of Fire.

Even though it’s Gods written word, I don’t understand what he is saying in my heart, his written word doesn’t make sense in my heart....until he brings me to that understanding... @Matthias hope that makes sense, God Bless,xx

 

[Matthias]

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing.”

(Ecclesiastes 9:5, TLV)

That doesn’t fit with the idea that the dead are conscious.

”Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your all strength, for there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, where you are going.”

(Ecclesiastes 9:10)

The dead aren’t conscious in heaven or in the grave. They are unconscious in the grave, awaiting resurrection to consciousness / life.

 

[Matthias]

What kind of body will the wicked have when they are resurrected back to life? Scripture doesn’t explicitly say.

If they are raised mortal -> bodies that will be consumed by fire and by worm.

If they are raised immortal -> bodies that cannot be consumed by fire and by worm.

Only God alone, by himself, has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Anyone else who receives immortality (1) isn’t God himself and (2) will receive it as an essential element of being saved.

 

[Matthias]

“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting comtempt.”

(Daniel 12:2, NASB)

So where are the dead? Righteous and wicked, asleep in the dust of the ground.

Will they remain there? No. They will awake in future resurrections.

Will they all receive eternal life? No. Only those who belong to the Messiah will be rewarded / receive eternal life.

What will happen to the others when they awake in a future resurrection? Judgement; disgrace (not grace!) and held in contempt (not rewarded with everlasting life).

 

[Matthias]

“By the sweat of your brow you will eat food until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”

(Genesis 3:19, NET)

Those who have died have returned to the ground. They are asleep in the dust of the earth. There is no activity in the grave. They are lifeless and will remain lifeless until they are resurrected back to life.

The only way that the dead are made alive again is through being bodily resurrected.

How do we know that this will actually happen?

It actually happened to the Messiah. Had he not been resurrected from the realm of the dead, he would still be sleeping in the dust of the earth. Jesus was dead. Jesus was made alive again, just as Paul said in Romans 14:9.

The wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life / immortality.

God isn’t going to give the free gift to those who refuse to repent and turn to him.

Without the gift, man remains mortal and will die -> not live forever.

 

[Titus]

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing

That doesn’t fit with the idea that the dead are conscious.

They know nothing about what's taking place on earth.

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing.”

(Ecclesiastes 9:5, TLV)

I see you like to take verses out of context to fit your doctrine.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,
- for the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten,
- also their love their hatred and their envy have now perished, nevermore will they have a share in anything UNDER THE SUN

Solomon says they remember nothing about this life. Under the Sun.
Solomin does not say they cease to be conscious.

 

[Matthias]

I’m interested in what the last thing people say before we hear from them no more. With that in mind, what is the last thing that Isaiah said?

”And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

(Isaiah 66:24, NIV)

“They will go out and observe the corpses of those who rebelled against me; for the maggots that eat them will not die, and the fire that consumes them will not die out. All people will find the sight abhorrent.”

(Isaiah 66:24, NET)

They aren’t living people; they’re dead people. Their bodies are lifeless. They are being eaten by worms / maggots and burned with fire. They aren’t consciously aware of what is happening to them.

Worms / maggots eating decomposing flesh; fire consuming decomposing flesh.

Why won’t the worms / maggots die? Are they immortal?

The worms / maggots aren’t immortal, they are mortal. Mortals don’t live forever. They won’t die, however, as long as they have something to feed on. Once they have eaten allthat there is to eaten, then they will die. No one will deter the worms / maggots from completing their task.

What about the fire that consumes them? I’ve already commented on the fire and how it to will not be put out by anyone. It will burn until there is nothing left to burn; then it will burn out.

Notice that the worms / maggots will eat them. The dead are edible. Notice that the worms / maggots will consume them. Once they are eaten / consumed they will not be eaten / consumed again.

 

[Matthias]

They know nothing about what's taking place on earth.

That’s right. They are dead, buried in the earth.

I see you like to take verses out of context to fit your doctrine.

As do all trinitarians who believe in conditional immortality?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,
- for the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten,
- also their love their hatred and their envy have now perished, nevermore will they have a share in anything UNDER THE SUN

Solomon says they remember nothing about this life. Under the Sun.
Solomin does not say they cease to be conscious.

Thinking is required in order to know what is going on. The dead aren’t thinking. Their brains have ceased to function. Vision is required in order to see what is going on. Their eyes have ceased to function. Hearing is required in order to know what is going on. Their ears have ceased to function. Touching is required to know what is going on. Their sense of touch is no longer functioning. They don’t feel anything.

There is no activity in the grave.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I haven’t had that heart revelation yet...God has always spoken to my heart,..then I check what I believe him to be saying to me with his written word.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Revelation 19:10
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

God's written Word is the testimony of Jesus (Word of God) in written form.

You should accept what God's Word says about hell if you wanted to be a true believer.

 

[Matthias]

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Revelation 19:10
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

God's written Word is the testimony of Jesus (Word of God) in written form.

You should accept what God's Word says about hell if you wanted to be a true believer.

She’s a believer who said that she doesn’t at the moment know something. From that you make the leap to she is not a true believer and may not want to be.

P.S.

I came down hard on you, reconsidered my response, and edited my post to remove my stern words. I’m extending an apology to you, whether you read what I deleted or not.

”In any case, we should live up to whatever truth we have attained.”

(Philippians 3:16, HCSB)

My hope is that you, a believer, will reconsider your response to her.

 

[Matthias]

“Life is surprisingly short. Yet millions are living as though this were the only life that counted. They have completely lost sight of eternity. Would to God that we would learn to live each day with eternity’s values in view.” - Billy Graham

x.com

x.com

Life is short for mortal souls. Life is long for immortal souls.

The mortal must be clothed with immortality or the mortal will suffer the second death.

 

[Matthias]

“In my previous post, I said that while I am not an ‘Annihilationist,’ I do see enough biblical support for this position to qualify it as an Evangelical option. … from what I have seen, there’s a good deal of sound, biblical arguments for it.

… the Bible says that the gift of immortality is only given to believers who are in Christ (see 1 Cor 15:21-23, 50-54; 2 Tim 1:10). That is, immortality (i.e. living forever) is not inherent to humankind. The soul is not inherently immortal, so ECT can only work if God miraculously gives a type of immortality to the wicked at their resurrection. But this is never clearly stated in Scripture. Immortality is only given to believers. And remember Genesis 2, where ‘living forever’ was conditioned upon eating from the tree of life (which shows up again in Rev. 22).

… the language of ‘eternality’ (aionios) doesn’t always (or usually?) convey the idea of never ending time. …

The sum up to this point, the word ‘eternal’ (or better ‘everlasting’) may refer to ECT, but it could simply refer to the finality or completeness of the destruction or to its other worldly nature - it’s a ‘destruction of the ages,’ or ‘not of this world.’ Either way, it does not unambiguously refer to ECT.”

Biblical Support for Annihilation - Theology in the raw

In my previous post, I said that while I am not an “Annihilationist,” I do see enough biblical support for this position to qualify it as an Evangelical option. I have not yet had the time to clear my desk to engage in prayerful, thorough, painstaking exegesis to have landed on this position...

theologyintheraw.com

ECT is referring to eternal conscious torment.

 

[Ritajanice]

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

No one said it was open for “private interpretation “ that’s why we must be Born Of The Spirit to understand the written word.as it’s a spiritual book, it was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit,..the Bible is NOT God, we worship God in spirit and truth.....because we are His spiritual children?

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children,= ...this means heart revelation @Dan Clarkston, Living heart revelation...do you understand that?.. we need to be Born Again for the Holy Spirit to lead us through scripture, we learn from Him, we don’t learn from our own “ personal interpretation “ God is Spirit, a child of God communicates with God in their spirit, via His Holy Spirit.


@Dan Clarkston said.
You should accept what God's Word says about hell if you wanted to be a true believer....he is insinuating I’m not a true Born Again......be careful @Dan Clarkston ?

RJ says..I am Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed that liveth and abideth forever.

You need to stop counteracting the word of God to fit your own understanding of scripture....maybe start a different topic and let’s not take this one off course?

Revelation 19:10
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

God's written Word is the testimony of Jesus (Word of God) in written form.

Gods written word is NOT God, God is Alive and Active....His witness the Holy Spirit, makes our spirit Born Again, by His Living supernatural power?

You should accept what God's Word says about hell if you wanted to be a true believer.

A Born Again has been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever!

I think you may mean a “ True Born Again “.

The Living Holy Spirit makes our spirit Born Again......not the written word...which I have explained above.

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◄ John 16:13 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

1 Corinthians 2:14-3:9​

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King James Version​

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14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.


Spiritual Wisdom
…16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17that theGod of our Lord Jesus Christ, the gloriousFather, may give you a spirit of wisdom andrevelation in your knowledge of Him. 18I ask that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know the hope of His calling, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints,…

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◄ Ephesians 1:17 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. New Living Translation asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. English Standard Version that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, Berean Standard Bible that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him. Berean Literal Bible that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, King James Bible That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: New King James Version that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, New American Standard Bible that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

 

[Matthias]

 

[Matthias]

“Followers of Jesus must be men of mercy; for they have found mercy, and mercy has found them.” - Charles Spurgeon

There is no mercy in ECT (eternal conscious torment) of the wicked.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Several Biblical texts state that the mercy of God is eternal, forever, never-ending.
To me, this means that mercy will be always there for those who repent. To me, God's mercy does not need that the physical body is alive.
God's love and purpose for a human being do not end at the grave.

 

[Matthias]

Several Biblical texts state that the mercy of God is eternal, forever, never-ending.
To me, this means that mercy will be always there for those who repent. To me, God's mercy does not need that the physical body is alive.
God's love and purpose for a human being do not end at the grave.

The Bible teaches bodily resurrection from the grave. The physical body will be changed to a spiritual body. Jesus is the example of what will happen to all who belong to him.

Not everyone belongs to Jesus. They too will be bodily resurrected, according to the Bible. There is no promise in scripture that they will receive a spiritual body. They will be judged and some* will be destroyed in the lake of fire, experiencing what is called in scripture “the second death.” There is no recovery from the lake of fire / the second death.

* Most who subscribe to eternal conscious punishment assert that all who are judged in the second resurrection and didn’t belong to Jesus will suffer unending conscious torment in the lake of fire.

I don’t hold to eternal conscious torment for anyone, nor do I hold that all who will be bodily resurrected in the second resurrection and judged will be cast into the lake of fire. I believe that there is a wideness of God’s mercy, but not so wide that it includes every human person who has ever lived. The incorrigibly wicked will be destroyed. Others (ex. people who lived their lives for whatever length of time that they did without perhaps ever having even heard about Jesus) might not be judged incorrigible. Jesus will review what they did and didn’t do and judge righteously. In other words, I don’t believe that the second resurrection is nothing but a show trial and a burning party.

 

[Matthias]

“Followers of Jesus must be men of mercy; for they have found mercy, and mercy has found them.” - Charles Spurgeon

There is no mercy in ECT (eternal conscious torment) of the wicked.

There is mercy in conditional immortality.

God is both just and merciful.

 

[Matthias]

You will rejoice to see your family in hell? That’s another strike against eternal conscious torment as far as I’m concerned.

The God who takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked logically shouldn’t have followers who delight in the eternal conscious torment of their unbelieving family members.

A potential godly vs. ungodly issue.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Bible teaches bodily resurrection from the grave. The physical body will be changed to a spiritual body. Jesus is the example of what will happen to all who belong to him.

Not everyone belongs to Jesus. They too will be bodily resurrected, according to the Bible. There is no promise in scripture that they will receive a spiritual body. They will be judged and some* will be destroyed in the lake of fire, experiencing what is called in scripture “the second death.” There is no recovery from the lake of fire / the second death.

* Most who subscribe to eternal conscious punishment assert that all who are judged in the second resurrection and didn’t belong to Jesus will suffer unending conscious torment in the lake of fire.

I don’t hold to eternal conscious torment for anyone, nor do I hold that all who will be bodily resurrected in the second resurrection and judged will be cast into the lake of fire. I believe that there is a wideness of God’s mercy, but not so wide that it includes every human person who has ever lived. The incorrigibly wicked will be destroyed. Others (ex. people who lived their lives for whatever length of time that they did without perhaps ever having even heard about Jesus) might not be judged incorrigible. Jesus will review what they did and didn’t do and judge righteously. In other words, I don’t believe that the second resurrection is nothing but a show trial and a burning party.

I appreciate the love and mercy of God that gets conveyed through your words, Matthias.
So, although we may naturally differ in some theological aspects, in essence we share the concept of eternal torture as not corresponding to the character of God, as revealed through reason and Scripture. An that is to me a great point in common.

I like your arguments in this and other posts.
If you want, I can share with you what are some misconceptions about my universalist position. Not to persuade you, but at least to give you a picture of what I believe.