are you trapped in Nicolaitan Dialectic?

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marks

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the attitude that says we have need of nothing
Yes, that's true, those who feel they are completely self-sufficient are in trouble!

I have nothing of myself. But I have everything in Christ.

Much love!
 

marks

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Scripture interprets scripture is a good starting point, a Good hermeneutic, But when the Word of God comes to life scripture will begin to resonate with who you are and what you need and will read you, and convict you, and move you and transform you, this is the Power of the sword of the Spirit. It cuts to the marrow of who you are, and the intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).
Not sure what you mean by starting point. I confirm anything I happen think about Scripture by Scripture. For me it is the starting, middle, and end point.

By Scripture my mind is renewed, rewritten according to the mind of Christ.

Much love!
 

David H.

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This is the heart of projection. "Your life must be just like mine."

From a previous comment.....You have yet to prove me wrong.

Did the Corinthian church Mope and get offended when Paul exposed them for the Problems they had in their church? No, They did something about it they received the correction and changed, They Took responsibility and did something about the problems in their church. You see getting offended is what the Left does with the Truth, until now they label the Truth as Toxic Masculinity and being offended as being "woke". I Know this is not who you are but this mindset is infesting the church to the point now that only praise and exhortation is politically correct, where as reproval and rebuke are frowned up as being offensive.

You made a comment that was just like what the Laodicean says in their heart "I am in need of nothing", I merely pointed that out to you and you took offense. It is this attitude that feeds the Nicolaitans their gaul to rule over the Laity as it takes both a complacent laity and those willing to lord over the laity to maintain this dialectic. Thus your quote was a perfect example of this mindset at work.

Prove me wrong is what you should be doing now, instead of complaining about how offended this made you. Godly remorse should be the result, not personal offense. look at the example of the Corinthian Church as Paul praised them for in 2 Corinthians 7. The chapter is only 16 verses take the time to read it.

For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (verses 8-10)

Know one thing, I do not point anyone to follow me, I point them to Christ and the cross and the right relationship with Him. I am nothing, just a vessel for Him to speak through. I Hold no authority nor do I claim any, as Christ is the head, and my all in all.

God Bless.
 

marks

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Prove me wrong is what you should be doing now, instead of complaining about how offended this made you.
OK, you keep talking about me being offended, I'm not. You just happen to be mistaken about me. There are no complaints of offense. This is like looking at an equation and getting the wrong sum is all.

So that's misdirection, and should be set aside.

Prove to you that I'm not Laodicean? Dead inside? Without Jesus? I know you think that the Laodicean letter is written to a born again church. I see it written to a church shepherd/elder/what we'd call pastor who is neither hot nor cold, and Jesus stands outside, not having communion inside.

And all the rest of us should learn from what it says, but not to broadbrush everyone you meet as if this is what desribes them.

Prove I'm not Laodicean? What would be proof to you? That I give some personal testimony? That I speak of wonders and gifts? That I convince you from my anecdotal tales what you do not accept from Scripture? What I say means nothing. What God says means everything.

Much love!
 

marks

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You made a comment that was just like what the Laodicean says in their heart "I am in need of nothing",
Again, my comment, which you equate to the Laodicean church leader, who is spiritually empty, what to refer you to what God says of us:

2 Peter 1:2-4
2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This is not me saying this, it is God saying it.

While I say, I am in need of nothing more than Jesus, Who lives in me now, you make that out to be me saying, I'm in need of nothing at all, not God, not Jesus, don't you see this?

I'm telling you what God says about us, and you make that out to be me saying . . . well, you know.

And even after all these words you persist.

Somethink to think about?

Much love!
 

David H.

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Prove to you that I'm not Laodicean? Dead inside? Without Jesus? I know you think that the Laodicean letter is written to a born again church. I see it written to a church shepherd/elder/what we'd call pastor who is neither hot nor cold, and Jesus stands outside, not having communion inside.

And all the rest of us should learn from what it says, but not to broadbrush everyone you meet as if this is what desribes them.

Prove I'm not Laodicean? What would be proof to you? That I give some personal testimony? That I speak of wonders and gifts? That I convince you from my anecdotal tales what you do not accept from Scripture? What I say means nothing. What God says means everything.

These Words again show that you do not understand or have a desire to admit and deny the responsibility in your own life for this Laodicean mindset. You show a disconnect with the elder/messenger to the church, which is merely one of us who has supposedly matured, in writing to the elder the message is to the whole body but you do not equate yourself with the whole body. The Problem is systemic, and this is what the purpose of this post is. Much like the Church has progressed in its revelation, the mystery of iniquity has progressed to where it is now where there is this disconnect between clergy and Laity, the problem is two fold of a Laity that does not want to take responsibility giving Authority to a clergy class that wants to Lord over the Laity.

The Church is not the leaders, the church is the people, all of them. When Paul wrote his Epistles, He was writing to all in the church, not just the leaders. The Epistles in Revelation are the same. They were written directly to the seven Churches that existed at the time, But also as a prophecy of seven Ages of the Church. An Epistle would be read in front of the Body by a messenger, as pertaining the whole church, not just to the messenger himself. A Messenger is one who carries the message to the church, to say these epistles are written to them is to deny they are written to the church, and denial is the very heart of the message to the Laodicean church. the fact that you use this excuse to not allow this letter to convict you, shows this mindset at work in you, there is no conviction, no sorrow, no self reflection as to this possibly being written to you here and now.

The Point is, Is the church that exists here and now operating in the fulness of Christ? Any honest appraisal of the church today would say no this is not happening, this post is an attempt to explain why this is occurring, Not to criticize the church, but to give it direction on how to escape this depraved state it is in. It begins by the laity embracing its Growth by taking responsibility and not giving authority to the clergy class and making them responsible for the Great commission. We are all called to bear fruit, not just a class of clergy that we pay "indulgences" to as career clergy. It is the Laity embracing their role as a royal priesthood, with Christ as our high priest.

So When I say Prove me wrong, you are merely exposing and confirming the truth of who you are to me, and that is one who is caught in the Laodicean Mindset that has a disconnect with the Nicolaitan clergy, which defers responsibility to them as opposed to yourself. Instead of proving me wrong you confirm the diagnosis. Do You not see this?
 

marks

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These Words again show that you do not understand or have a desire to admit and deny the responsibility in your own life for this Laodicean mindset.
This like telling me, who is a non-drinker, that I'm an alcoholic, and when I tell you I don't drink, you say, Aha! Your are in denial!

You show a disconnect with the elder/messenger to the church, which is merely one of us who has supposedly matured, in writing to the elder the message is to the whole body but you do not equate yourself with the whole body.

It amazes me how much you get from my words beyond what I've said! I'm directing you to the wording of the passage, to which you reply that I'm disconnected from the body.

The Church is not the leaders, the church is the people, all of them. When Paul wrote his Epistles, He was writing to all in the church, not just the leaders. The Epistles in Revelation are the same. They were written directly to the seven Churches that existed at the time,

To the messenger of the church in Ephesus write . . .

You can pay attention or not, it's up to you. He who has an ear let him hear. Certainly these are to all of us. Let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Certainly these are to the church. To the messenger of the church in . . . They are firstly addressed to the messenger of the church.

the fact that you use this excuse to not allow this letter to convict you, shows this mindset at work in you,

you are merely exposing and confirming the truth of who you are to me, and that is one who is caught in the Laodicean Mindset that has a disconnect with the Nicolaitan clergy,

you confirm the diagnosis. Do You not see this?

So I'm about done with all this personal nonsense. That's not what I'm here for.

I want to discuss Scripture, but you can't seem to stop making this all about declaring me Laodicean so you can keep your doctrine.

So there ya go!

Much love!
 

David H.

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To the messenger of the church in Ephesus write . . .

You can pay attention or not, it's up to you. He who has an ear let him hear. Certainly these are to all of us. Let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Certainly these are to the church. To the messenger of the church in . . . They are firstly addressed to the messenger of the church.

So I'm about done with all this personal nonsense. That's not what I'm here for.

I want to discuss Scripture, but you can't seem to stop making this all about declaring me Laodicean so you can keep your doctrine.

So there ya go!

Much love!

Again this only proves my Point rather than proving me wrong. Scripture is meant to cut to the marrow, But when you harden your heart to the sword of the Spirit it cannot do what the author intends the words to do. The Author is Christ Jesus in this case.... All the letters apply to every believer and all have a lesson that we all must learn in our Christian walk as part of the progressive revelation to the churches. The Laodicean mindset is the last for good reason, and we as a body must overcome this in order to hasten his coming. Here is how we hasten his coming....

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[fn] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[fn] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.[fn] Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:9-13, ESV)
 

marks

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All the letters apply to every believer and all have a lesson that we all must learn in our Christian walk as part of the progressive revelation to the churches.

By your method of interpretation, I counsel you to put away the immorality under Jezebel. She is a false prophetess, and you need to stop your adultery with her, committing fornication, and eating things sacrificed to demons!

Oh, you are not in bed with Jezebel? Stop your denial, and get out of that bed!

"Rightly dividing the word of God"? Or no?

Much love!
 

David H.

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By your method of interpretation, I counsel you to put away the immorality under Jezebel. She is a false prophetess, and you need to stop your adultery with her, committing fornication, and eating things sacrificed to demons!

Oh, you are not in bed with Jezebel? Stop your denial, and get out of that bed!

"Rightly dividing the word of God"? Or no?

Much love!

Jezebel is a seductive spirit and all believers must deal with her in their lives, and there is a Jezebel in each of our lives as Believers which we must overcome. So Yes I have been under the sway of this spirit, and under her seductions, but by the Grace of God and the work of the holy Spirit In me I have overcome this spirit. To Say you have not dealt with the spirit of Jezebel is to be naive to her ways and seductions. You Would do well to identify this spirit at work in your life in the people you are close to, Once you identify the jezebel spirit you can begin to see them at work all around the world.... a tip, a type A personality is not a Jezebel, but more than likely if you are a type A personality there is one attached to your hip, as they like authorities and powers... church leaders are prone to this seduction more than any others, and is why this is associated with the Nicolaitan doctrines.

Hope this helps....
 

David H.

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Jezebel is a seductive spirit and all believers must deal with her in their lives, and there is a Jezebel in each of our lives as Believers which we must overcome. So Yes I have been under the sway of this spirit, and under her seductions, but by the Grace of God and the work of the holy Spirit In me I have overcome this spirit. To Say you have not dealt with the spirit of Jezebel is to be naive to her ways and seductions. You Would do well to identify this spirit at work in your life in the people you are close to, Once you identify the jezebel spirit you can begin to see them at work all around the world.... a tip, a type A personality is not a Jezebel, but more than likely if you are a type A personality there is one attached to your hip, as they like authorities and powers... church leaders are prone to this seduction more than any others, and is why this is associated with the Nicolaitan doctrines.

Hope this helps....

The Ways in Which the Jezebel Spirit Will Operate (bible-knowledge.com)
 

marks

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I've long wondered when people, and in particular Christians, those who are filled with the Holy Spirit, you are filled up with Christ, well, there's this longstanding practice of blaming evil spirits for moral failings, and I just wonder that maybe it's just the good ol' flesh, those fleshy lusts pushing their way, and we give in, and that all there is to it.

I know there is spiritual warfare. I know know that the wicked one shoots those fiery darts. But look at what those darts are . . . they are attacks on your faith. Faith is what deflects them.

The desire for sins rises readily from the flesh, and having the correct perspective on what we're dealing with will better equip us, I think. And maybe someone is dealing with an evil spirit, and maybe our own flesh, either way, to me, I respond the same way without needing to know, just that when I feel that tug, to turn in trust to God.

Much love!
 

David H.

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I've long wondered when people, and in particular Christians, those who are filled with the Holy Spirit, you are filled up with Christ, well, there's this longstanding practice of blaming evil spirits for moral failings, and I just wonder that maybe it's just the good ol' flesh, those fleshy lusts pushing their way, and we give in, and that all there is to it.

I know there is spiritual warfare. I know know that the wicked one shoots those fiery darts. But look at what those darts are . . . they are attacks on your faith. Faith is what deflects them.

The desire for sins rises readily from the flesh, and having the correct perspective on what we're dealing with will better equip us, I think. And maybe someone is dealing with an evil spirit, and maybe our own flesh, either way, to me, I respond the same way without needing to know, just that when I feel that tug, to turn in trust to God.

A True Christian cannot be possessed by an evil spirit, but they can be oppressed and tempted by them, and can fall victim to them. when a person is gifted of the Holy Ghost, these spirits will come and try attach to this person via other people around them and try to destroy what they build by the unction of the Holy Ghost.

The manipulation these spirits use is always of the flesh, whether lust, Pride of Life, standing and prestige, carnal power and authority. And when these things fail to swoon you they will then attack your credibility and your calling to preach. This is so ingrained in the Nicolaitan doctrines it is hard to break.

Let me give you an example, the Lord calls someone to serve Him, and gifts him accordingly to do so, as soon as this happens and these spirits see the Holy Ghost manifesting in the work you are doing these spirits will show up, first to seduce you away from the path, but if this fails they will then say you are not called to Preach and try to place doubt in you. They will question your credentials and your authority and worthiness to teach or preach. This is what Nicolaitanism does, and why Jesus Hates it so much.

God does not use the wise of this world, and give them gifts, but he uses the broken and empowers them. He uses Fishermen and tax collectors, Not kings and priests. He uses the poor, the broken hearted, the outcast to carry his messages, That they may be easily rejected by those who are proud and all knowing. He chose David the shepherd boy, the Seventh son, not his elder sons who were stronger, He chose Joseph, Not Reuben, He chose Judah, Not Levi, He chose His own Son to come as a Babe and a carpenter's son to be the Messiah.

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. ( 1Corinthians 1:27-31)

Jezebel is one of these spirits that will attack you, when you are called to serve, I can almost guarantee this will happen. some will fall for here seduction and tolerate her, others will pass the test and grow. Many are and remain stuck in this manipulation and doctrine of Jezebel.... "the depths (Deep things) of Satan" (Revelation 2:24)
 

David H.

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What does that mean? I hear this term a lot. Can you show me in the Bible what demonic oppression of a child of God is?

Much love!

I Sure can.... Paul is a good example, wherever he preached his words were received, and then opposed by certain groups, In Particular he mentions some by name, Hymeneus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20), Hymeneus and Philetus ( 2 Timothy 2:17) , Jannes and Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) Read these episodes in scripture. These are all men, the last two were the magicians of Pharaoh who withstood Moses, and they are "types". They are the type of opposition a man of God will face. Satan fights from two towers, lawlessness is Overt and obvious, legalism is covert and covered in religion, he attacks on multiple fronts. To Oppress literally is to Oppose or hold back or squeeze, This sort of oppression is all over scripture done by leaders and religious chiefs throughout, thinking they are doing the will of God, but as Jesus put it, "they are of their father the devil".

Especially, take the time to read 2 Timothy 3 As this goes into more detail as does 1 Timothy 4.

Oppression comes in many forms, Persecution, false accusation, scoffing and mocking, Plotting against, Leading astray. It is literally all over scripture, where men called of God are opposed. They are wittingly and in some cases unwittingly in the control of demonic spirits. (Seducing spirits and doctrines of Devils).
 
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Randy Kluth

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A Nicolaitan dialectic is a means of manipulation used by leaders in a society or social construct to keep the People in their subservient and dependent position on their leadership. It is based on Circular reasoning and is prevalent in all Worldly institutions, whether they be secular or religious. The circular reasoning they use goes something like this....

We (The leaders) have been granted power, we have set up this institution for you to be a part of This institution is founded by authorized Powers that cannot be questioned. You must belong to this institution or you are not one of us.

Before you dismiss this Post, We as Christians should not be involved in this for we are not of this world. We are not to be called rabbi, but we are all brethren and sisters with Christ and Co Heirs with Jesus by adoption, He is the head of the church, not human institutions. If you can grasp this you will free yourself from a lot of burdens the religious spirit puts you under.

Are you trapped in a Nicolaitan dialectic, lost in a circle of circular reasoning?

Some people feel that the Catholic Church and even Protestant Churches have developed organizations that are no longer operating in partnership with God. In effect they've produced false Churches. They have the name of being Christian, but in doing things contrary to the Gospel they have given up spiritual power with God for a false spiritual power in which men rule over men with religious control. Just like politicians these nominal Christian leaders seek to impact the world by their political power over their membership.

The Nicolaitans sacrificed morality and any sense of spiritual guidance from God when they began to practice sexual immortality and no longer were concerned for fellows Christians to live by their conscience. They encouraged Christians to go against their conscience and eat food devoted to idols.

Thus, they taught fellow Christians to rationalize enjoying things they should not be enjoying, simply because it "tastes good." A substitute spirituality replaced true spirituality, causing the church to decide between true spirituality or nominalism.

I do believe that many older churches have fallen prey to nominalism. We may call them "Christians," but I don't think many of them even know what walking with Christ means. Of course, there may be a mixture in these people, their knowing God in some respects and not knowing Him in others. They, like the world, pivot from good to evil regularly and fail to recognize when they're doing evil. That is not true Christianity. That is a compromised form of Christianity.
 
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Jacob28

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A Nicolaitan dialectic is a means of manipulation used by leaders in a society or social construct to keep the People in their subservient and dependent position on their leadership. It is based on Circular reasoning and is prevalent in all Worldly institutions, whether they be secular or religious. The circular reasoning they use goes something like this....

We (The leaders) have been granted power, we have set up this institution for you to be a part of This institution is founded by authorized Powers that cannot be questioned. You must belong to this institution or you are not one of us.

Before you dismiss this Post, We as Christians should not be involved in this for we are not of this world. We are not to be called rabbi, but we are all brethren and sisters with Christ and Co Heirs with Jesus by adoption, He is the head of the church, not human institutions. If you can grasp this you will free yourself from a lot of burdens the religious spirit puts you under.

Are you trapped in a Nicolaitan dialectic, lost in a circle of circular reasoning?
Good issue to bring up. Years ago I had the same wonderment. I watched and listened as Professional Church Talkers hypnotized and dominated gullible people, thinking "How Do They Get Away With It Week After Week?"

I realized, then gathered data, to conclude it was all about skillfully using Rhetoric Devices. Very well trained, practiced, smoothly delivered upon both cognitive triggers and emotional switches.
 

marks

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I Sure can.... Paul is a good example, wherever he preached his words were received, and then opposed by certain groups, In Particular he mentions some by name, Hymeneus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20), Hymeneus and Philetus ( 2 Timothy 2:17) , Jannes and Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) Read these episodes in scripture. These are all men, the last two were the magicians of Pharaoh who withstood Moses, and they are "types". They are the type of opposition a man of God will face. Satan fights from two towers, lawlessness is Overt and obvious, legalism is covert and covered in religion, he attacks on multiple fronts. To Oppress literally is to Oppose or hold back or squeeze, This sort of oppression is all over scripture done by leaders and religious chiefs throughout, thinking they are doing the will of God, but as Jesus put it, "they are of their father the devil".

Especially, take the time to read 2 Timothy 3 As this goes into more detail as does 1 Timothy 4.

Oppression comes in many forms, Persecution, false accusation, scoffing and mocking, Plotting against, Leading astray. It is literally all over scripture, where men called of God are opposed. They are wittingly and in some cases unwittingly in the control of demonic spirits. (Seducing spirits and doctrines of Devils).
I hear people talking about demons "oppressing" Christians, at the end of it, your words, "they are in the control of demonic spirits", that's something I didn't see in your reply, where God's children are in the control of demonic spirits. There is the passage of handing the one over to Satan, although that's in the context of correction.

That's my concern when people start talking about demonic oppression and demons taking control of Believers, that this ascribes too much to demons and too little to Jesus, who will not, I do not think, share us with demons.

There seems to me to be an almost Christian counter-culture with this whole narrative of the underworld society, as it were. For myself, it seems unhealthy. I seem to do so much better staying focused on Jesus. My shortcomings, from whatever source, are addressed in exactly the same way, by faith in Christ, and in the renewing of the mind.

Much love!
 

David H.

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I hear people talking about demons "oppressing" Christians, at the end of it, your words, "they are in the control of demonic spirits", that's something I didn't see in your reply, where God's children are in the control of demonic spirits. There is the passage of handing the one over to Satan, although that's in the context of correction.

That's my concern when people start talking about demonic oppression and demons taking control of Believers, that this ascribes too much to demons and too little to Jesus, who will not, I do not think, share us with demons.

There seems to me to be an almost Christian counter-culture with this whole narrative of the underworld society, as it were. For myself, it seems unhealthy. I seem to do so much better staying focused on Jesus. My shortcomings, from whatever source, are addressed in exactly the same way, by faith in Christ, and in the renewing of the mind.

You seem to have missed my point let me clarify...
A Born again believer cannot be possessed, that is to be filled by demons themselves, But the can be oppressed, which literally means to be squeezed or afflicted from outside of them.

When ever a Born again believer is called to preach, opposition will rise from without, now not everyone who questions this person is demonically controlled, some have a healthy skepticism, others are searching and unsure, But of those who oppose there are those who are possessed of demons "wittingly or unwittingly", it is these people that are in the control of demonic spirits, not the person born again.

Now some will say what about Peter? See Matthew 16:23. When this occurred with Peter, he was yet to be born again, as the new covenant was yet to be in effect which occurred with the death of the testator. So Satan could possess Peter, and He did Possess Judas who was never born again and is in hell to this day.

A Born again believer cannot be possessed, but they can be oppressed by demons, and in some cases overcome by them, under their influence, and in the grips of their temptation, But they are not possessed by them. For example, a spirit of anger can overcome a born again believer and lead them to act in a viscious way towards others, they have given place for the anger in their life to manifest and control them. The spirits of Lust are common ones the Christian will face, the incubus and succubus. Many will fall victim to them. Jezebel, Python, Leviathan are all spirits that can oppress and overcome Born again believers, to know about them is the start of not falling victim to them. Unfortunately most Christians have never learned of these spirits. For example Python is the spirit of divination (Acts 16:16), Many Charismatics are under the manipulation of this spirit and much of the false prophecy that casts a shadow over the charismatic movement is caused by the oppression of the python spirits that have slithered into the churches. They have literally squeezed that church so much that it has lost much of its credibility.

All of these spirits seek nothing more than to do this to the church, literally to squeeze the life out of it. They are the tares among the field of wheat, and they are everywhere, in every church.
 

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Oct 10, 2018
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But they are not possessed by them.
That's right, we've both said, not possessed. You said God's children can be "controlled" by demons. I don't think that is correct. I don't see Jesus handing control of me over to demons.

Much love!