Atheist friends mock me about Noah and the Ark

[River Jordan]

So, yes River, the fact that Jesus never took issue with the flood account as it is recorded in scripture is very significant.

If you think "Jesus never said it was false, therefore it's true" is critical thinking, I have nothing to add and will just let it speak for itself.

Well that is not really true is it. The other site you were on kicked you off because you spammed them with heretically / Christian bashing thread after thread. It was a unanimous decision among many members and all the mods.

I can go pull up the thread and post where I was kicked out, and I can show that I rarely started threads. It was pretty obvious to me that the fundamentalist, young-earth creationist management there didn't like having someone around who was knowledgeable enough in the sciences to repeatedly debunk the copied creationist nonsense they were posting.

But either way, that place is pretty dead now, so no biggie.

 

[KingJ]

1. If you think "Jesus never said it was false, therefore it's true" is critical thinking, I have nothing to add and will just let it speak for itself.


I can go pull up the thread and post where I was kicked out, and I can show that I rarely started threads. It was pretty obvious to me that the fundamentalist, young-earth creationist management there didn't like having someone around who was knowledgeable enough in the sciences to repeatedly debunk the copied creationist nonsense they were posting.

But either way, that place is pretty dead now, so no biggie.

1. You are not even trying. Jesus was not just a man. He is God of the universe. Do you know any respected lecturer that teaches from a book that they do not agree with?

2. River you have it in your mind that people disagree with your science. The truth is that people disagree with your bias and bible bashing.

That site is actually doing well and the mods tolerated you for a while. I urge you to look closer at the titles of the threads you start.

 

[iakov]

IMO, the historical evidence is pretty clear that the Hebrews "borrowed" the story from their Babylonian captors and put their own Jewish spin on it.

Actually, the Mesopotami9an flood epics predate the Noah flood story by about 500 years.

And, yes, "putting a Jewish spin on it" is a probably a good conclusion but not from the Babylonian exile. That came about 1000 years or so later.

In the Mesopotamian flood epic, the earth cries out to the gods because of the ever increasing population which the earth cannot bear. (Some things never change.) The solution, after several failed attempts to alleviate the problem was a flood to wipe out all of mankind. But a family is saved in a boat and they re-people the earth but with conditions; a higher infant mortality rate, a higher rate of barrenness, and women who choose not to bear children.

This epic arises from the early city-states which were walled and space within the walls was at a premium. Additional children were expensive and considered a conditional blessing. (Again, just like today.)

Noah's flood story is a refutation of that idea. It recommends a nomadic, herdsman's way of life rather than the fixed location of a city supported by an agricultural economy. The ability to move is seen as a benefit and children are always an unconditional blessing. They become a patriarch's security and source of wealth. More children are more workers to tend the herds and warriors to defend them from marauders.

Having many children and being nomadic fulfills God's first command to man; “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Gen 1:28) God reiterates that command after the flood at Gen 9:1 and then prevents man from gathering at one place by confounding the languages of the builders of the tower of Babel and causing them to be scattered over all the earth.

So, Noah's flood, having a completely opposite view of the value of more children, is a refutation of the "city-ethos" of the Mesopotamian flood epics.

 

[River Jordan]

Do you know any respected lecturer that teaches from a book that they do not agree with?

I wasn't aware that anyone here had argued "Jesus didn't agree with the flood story".

 

[River Jordan]

iakov,

Also, it's not just the flood part of the Epic of Gilgamesh that seems to have influenced the Hebrews and their stories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Relationship_to_the_Bible

 

[iakov]

Didn't they find the Ark in the mountains of Ararat, in Turkey, just where the Bible said it is?

No.

 

[iakov]

Name, yes. Degree, area of expertise and published works....I see you think your reply alleviates you.

By the way....if you want to be taken seriously on even this a Christian discussion forum.... you would need more then just ''a degree'' if you have no published works.... .

So are you now going to publish your full name, degrees, area of expertise, and list of published works?

Just curious.

 

[KingJ]

I'm really curious about something KingJ....what is it in your life that has you so angry? Whenever I see you on these boards you come across as so hateful and nasty, all I can wonder is, "What happened to that guy?"

Seriously, are you at all able to be around someone who disagrees with you without being such a jerk?

You would have to quote examples. I have been on Christians sites for many years now. I have little toleration for people making a mockery of scripture like you do.

 

[KingJ]

So are you now going to publish your full name, degrees, area of expertise, and list of published works?

Just curious.

I don't need to. I am not bashing scripture.

 

[River Jordan]

You would have to quote examples.

This thread alone is a good example of how you react to Christians who don't share your fundamentalist views.

I have been on Christians sites for many years now. I have little toleration for people making a mockery of scripture like you do.

Oh sure....and in your black/white world, anyone who interprets scripture differently is "mocking scripture", because as we all know KingJ is the final authority on all matters scriptural and scientific.

But here's what you're missing. You and I clearly differ on how we read scripture. We both know that. But I expect that sort of thing within the Christian community (that's why there are thousands of denominations) so I don't fly off the handle and attack fellow Christians when we disagree on scripture. Shoot, I don't even really try to convince anyone that my reading is right and theirs is wrong. As long as we agree on the basics regarding the divinity of Christ and salvation, everything else is secondary. You OTOH get very angry and personally attack those who read scripture differently than you . It's like you can't handle disagreement or something, so when you encounter someone like me, the only thing you know how to do is berate and attack, I guess hoping that such angry childish tactics will be persuasive? I dunno....whatever your issue is, I pray that you'll get it figured out one day and finally learn how to live peacefully with Christians who are different than you.

 

[KingJ]

1. This thread alone is a good example of how you react to Christians who don't share your fundamentalist views.


2. Oh sure....and in your black/white world, anyone who interprets scripture differently is "mocking scripture", because as we all know KingJ is the final authority on all matters scriptural and scientific.

3. But here's what you're missing. You and I clearly differ on how we read scripture. We both know that. But I expect that sort of thing within the Christian community (that's why there are thousands of denominations) so I don't fly off the handle and attack fellow Christians when we disagree on scripture.

4. As long as we agree on the basics regarding the divinity of Christ and salvation, everything else is secondary.

5. You OTOH get very angry and personally attack those who read scripture differently than you . It's like you can't handle disagreement or something, so when you encounter someone like me, the only thing you know how to do is berate and attack, I guess hoping that such angry childish tactics will be persuasive? I dunno....whatever your issue is, I pray that you'll get it figured out one day and finally learn how to live peacefully with Christians who are different than you.

1. You said others. You are not others.

2. I have been corrected many times which I recently shared in a thread here discussing this. Perhaps you should share? Maybe River 2.0 raises less hairs?

3. We don't differ on how we read scripture. You reject the OT and all of Pauls' teaching. You say the bible is irrelevant on history and moral laws as it is 2000 years old. Many threads you start bash Christians. You mocking the flood is as predictable as replies from athiests.

4. I wonder how you can agree on that when you have no confidence in scripture. How do you know Jesus is divine? What was / is His plan for our salvation exactly?

5. I only argue with two types of people. Faith teachers and those guilty of Rev 22:19.

 

[River Jordan]

You reject the OT and all of Pauls' teaching. You say the bible is irrelevant on history and moral laws as it is 2000 years old.

Of course I never said any of those things, but in your black/white world I can see how you'd get that impression.

Many threads you start bash Christians. You mocking the flood is as predictable as replies from athiests.

That's what I'm talking about. To you, anything other than the absolute fundamentalist interpretation is "mocking" and daring to note some things the Christian community could improve on is "bashing". But those are your issues, not mine.

I wonder how you can agree on that when you have no confidence in scripture.

Of course I never said that either, but I can see how your black/white mindset sees it that way.

How do you know Jesus is divine? What was / is His plan for our salvation exactly?

We've been over this, and I'm not about to justify my faith to an angry, insecure fundamentalist.

I only argue with two types of people. Faith teachers and those guilty of Rev 22:19.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Dan57]

I have a hard time trying to tell my friends that one day we will find the ark and proove the existence. They argue that so much rain in 40 days is impossible, and also they ball off about dinosaurs, and how did the animal fit etc.

Imo, your friends are correct on all counts... The ark won't be found, there's not enough water to flood the entire world as many believe, and all the animals in the world would not have fit on the ark.

 

[KingJ]

1. Of course I never said any of those things, but in your black/white world I can see how you'd get that impression.
2. That's what I'm talking about. To you, anything other than the absolute fundamentalist interpretation is "mocking" and daring to note some things the Christian community could improve on is "bashing". But those are your issues, not mine.
3. Of course I never said that either, but I can see how your black/white mindset sees it that way.
4. We've been over this, and I'm not about to justify my faith to an angry, insecure fundamentalist.
5. Thanks for your input.

1. You do not deal with accusations against you. You seem to think saying it is black and white vs your open mind is true. But it is high time you grasp you are not alleviated by this. Your open mind is too open. This is why you run from questions about your Christianity. I imagine you attend a very new age church.
2. Removing and completely altering what scripture says is not improving.
3. You have not answered the question.
4. You were elusive then as you are now.
5. As always a waste of time talking to you River. I only talk to you for the sake of those poor children you teach .

 

[KingJ]

Imo, your friends are correct on all counts... The ark won't be found, there's not enough water to flood the entire world as many believe, and all the animals in the world would not have fit on the ark.

His friends are correct that we cannot prove the ark?

Where does scripture say all animals were placed on the ark?

 

[ATP]

I have a hard time trying to tell my friends that one day we will find the ark and proove the existence. They argue that so much rain in 40 days is impossible, and also they ball off about dinosaurs, and how did the animal fit etc.

Tell your friends that dinosaurs aren't in the Bible, just like that butterfly and stinkbug Paul saw on his way to Rome aren't in it either. Get it?

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[snagol0789]

ok first i'm going to use a lot of stuff form Kent Hovind and http://creationtoday.org/
ok so there are mini ways of making this more believable to atheist how are not believing the truth that is in the bible first the water was not just rain that would make to much heat but rain and the water under the earth if you bing or google it, it says there is 3x the water in the oceans that we know of and that is not counting the fact that that the earth was probably a lot smoother
next is the fossil and sedimentary lairs they are usually dated by each other and sometimes have trees going throw them you then may notices that the each "lair" of fossils is belongs to a desire animal first Birds which have hollow bones and last shelled ciders there in the order of the rate at which they sink and the biggest Sonoma ever would kill and remove all the earth's land marks and also would make wrinkles and thus hills mountains oceans ext
next I would go on the offense and ask them about the damnations of the ark 450ft by 75ft by 45ft which is a 30:5:3 and that mean that the boot was the best possible damnations for a boat http://www.smoaky.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140575
and for those Christians how are in the millions no wait billions no wait trillions of ?is that the current #? year old earth note that that would mean that the dinosaurs dead before the preverbal apple baiting and the verse Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: does not agree so which is it deaf form sin or deaf before sin? and note the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not a apple thus the word "preverbal"

hope this helps

 

[River Jordan]

I call Poe's Law. :wacko:

 

[Dcopymope]

I have a hard time trying to tell my friends that one day we will find the ark and proove the existence. They argue that so much rain in 40 days is impossible, and also they ball off about dinosaurs, and how did the animal fit etc.

The first thing you should ask yourself is why you consider an atheist to be your "friend" to begin with, as they mock you because of your faith? These are the scoffers spoken of in 2 Peter that in the last days will spring up from the mosaic of materialism. You are yoking yourself unequally with trash, with dogs that, with time and enough proselytizing about the word of God, will turn on you. I don't consider those who identify themselves as unbelievers as friends, period. It shouldn't take you long to realize that this friend is not really interested in you providing any kind of evidence at all for the faith. The sole intent of these demonically influenced little creatures is to vex you, and eventually get you to compromise and doubt your faith in God almighty. I know this is so from personal experience. Creation scientists should realize this whenever they converse with heathen evolutionists concerning science and the Bible. Like your atheist "friends", their only intent is to get the creation scientist to compromise on their faith, which has happened to the vast majority of "Christian schools" as they indoctrinate countless students with theistic evolution.

 

[River Jordan]

I'm always fascinated at how angry and hateful so many fundamentalists seem to be. Makes me wonder what's really going on. <_<