You are not reading THBE's posts. Or perhaps you have read them, but are misrepresenting them?
BABYLON SCAMYLON
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Philip James
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TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
World-wide power:
According to the Roman Catholic Church, the word "catholic" means "universal" (world-wide), and she says that she is full of power:
"... The word Catholic (katholikos from katholou — throughout the whole, i.e., universal) occurs in the Greek classics, e.g., in Aristotle and Polybius, and was freely used by the earlier Christian writers in what we may call its primitive and non-ecclesiastical sense. ...
It is adopted, for instance, in the "Catechismus ad Parochos", which in accordance with a decree of the Council of Trent was drawn up and published in 1566 with the highest official sanction (see CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE). In this authoritative document we read:
In confirmation of this, various prophetic utterances of Holy Scripture are quoted, after which the Catechism proceeds: "To this Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets (Ephesians 2:20) belong all the faithful who have existed from Adam to the present day, or shall exist in the profession of the true faith to the end of time, all of whom are founded and raised upon the one cornerstone, Christ, who made both one, and announced peace to them that are near, and to them that are afar. She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood. This, therefore, is to be taught as a most just criterion to distinguish the true from a false church." ..." - Roman Catholic Encyclopedia Online, Section C, Catholic - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm
It is adopted, for instance, in the "Catechismus ad Parochos", which in accordance with a decree of the Council of Trent was drawn up and published in 1566 with the highest official sanction (see CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE). In this authoritative document we read:
The third mark of the Church is that she is Catholic, that is, universal; and justly is she called Catholic, because, as St. Augustine says, 'she is diffused by the splendour of one faith from the rising to the setting sun'. Unlike republics of human institution, or the conventicles of heretics, she is not circumscribed within the limits of any one kingdom, nor confined to the members of any one society of men, but embraces within the amplitude of her love, all mankind, whether barbarians or Scythians, slaves or freemen, male or female.
In confirmation of this, various prophetic utterances of Holy Scripture are quoted, after which the Catechism proceeds: "To this Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets (Ephesians 2:20) belong all the faithful who have existed from Adam to the present day, or shall exist in the profession of the true faith to the end of time, all of whom are founded and raised upon the one cornerstone, Christ, who made both one, and announced peace to them that are near, and to them that are afar. She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood. This, therefore, is to be taught as a most just criterion to distinguish the true from a false church." ..." - Roman Catholic Encyclopedia Online, Section C, Catholic - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm
"...The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man…the pope’s excellence and power are not only about heaven, terrestrial and infernal things, but he is also above angels...He is of such great dignity and power that he occupies one and the same tribunal with Christ…the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power.” - Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, Volume V, article on “Papa, Article II”, titled “Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility“, #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition and Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, 1763, Volume VI, ‘Papa II’, pp. 25-29 - http://books.google.com/books?id=VYwsAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=quasi Deus in terra&f=false
Pagan:
“The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sun day and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter [in honor of Ishtar] and made it the feast we celebrate during this season ...The sun was a foremost god with heathendom ...Hence the Church would seem to say, ‘Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.’ And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder (Baal), became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus.” - Paulist Fathers “Paschale Gaudium,” in The Catholic World, Volume LVIII October 1893 - , March 1894; page 809 - http://books.google.com/books?id=pg4XAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA809&dq=Keep+that+old+pagan+name&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HQrhT82BNMLI2gXT9KGuCw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Keep that old pagan name&f=false
"... It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans ... Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds. ..." - The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, pp. 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942;
Nihil Obstat:
Arthus J. Scanlan, S.T.D.
Censor Librorum
Imprimatur:
[Maltese Cross] John Cardinal Farley, D.D.
Archbishop of New York
New York, March 27,1918 - https://books.google.com/books?id=-...hich were in common use among pagans"&f=false
Nihil Obstat:
Arthus J. Scanlan, S.T.D.
Censor Librorum
Imprimatur:
[Maltese Cross] John Cardinal Farley, D.D.
Archbishop of New York
New York, March 27,1918 - https://books.google.com/books?id=-...hich were in common use among pagans"&f=false
"... The example set by St. Gregory in an age of persecution was impetuously followed when a time of peace succeeded. In the course of the fourth century two movements or developments spread over the face of Christendom, with a rapidity characteristic of the Church; the one ascetic, the other ritual or ceremonial. We are told in various ways by Eusebius, [7] that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferrred into it the outward ornamnet to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lmaps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons; use of calendrs; processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turing to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, [8] are all of page origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.
[7] V. Const. iii. 1, iv. 23, &c.
[8] According to Dr. E. D. Clarke, Travels, vol. i, p. 352. ..." - An essay on the development of Christian doctrine, by Cardinal John Henry Newman, page 373; Longmans, Green, and CO. 39 Paternoster Row, London; New York and Bombay; 1903 - https://books.google.com/books?id=T...ed by their adoption into the Church"&f=false
[7] V. Const. iii. 1, iv. 23, &c.
[8] According to Dr. E. D. Clarke, Travels, vol. i, p. 352. ..." - An essay on the development of Christian doctrine, by Cardinal John Henry Newman, page 373; Longmans, Green, and CO. 39 Paternoster Row, London; New York and Bombay; 1903 - https://books.google.com/books?id=T...ed by their adoption into the Church"&f=false
“In Germany, after its evangelization, St. Michael replaced for the Christians the pagan god Wotan, to whom many mountains were sacred, hence the numerous mountain chapels of St. Michael all over Germany.” - St. Michael the Archangel, Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm
TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
Persecutor:
“... [Latin] C. XLVII. Non sunt homicidae qui adversus excommunicatos zelo matris ecclesiae armantur ..."
“... [English] Those are not to be accounted murderers who, fired with zeal for mother church, have killed excommunicated persons. ...” - “The Decretum of Gratian Part 2 Case 23 Question 5 chapter 47-48”; Decreti Secunda Pars Causa XXIII. Quest. V. c. 47-49; [47,48 specifically; section 49 given in 'defense' of these actions/reasons] - http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/dig...531.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= and http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/dig...532.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left=
“... [English] Those are not to be accounted murderers who, fired with zeal for mother church, have killed excommunicated persons. ...” - “The Decretum of Gratian Part 2 Case 23 Question 5 chapter 47-48”; Decreti Secunda Pars Causa XXIII. Quest. V. c. 47-49; [47,48 specifically; section 49 given in 'defense' of these actions/reasons] - http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/dig...531.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= and http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/dig...532.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left=
"... The Catholic Church is a respecter of conscience and of liberty... she believes and professes that “faith is a work of persuasion, not of force, fides suandenda est, non imponenda.” She has, and she loudly proclaims that she has, a “horror of blood”. Nevertheless when confronted by heresy she does not content herself with persuasion; arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture. She creates [p. 182 → p. 183] tribunals like those of the Inquisition, she calls the laws of State to her aid, if necessary she encourages a crusade, or a religious war and all her “horror of blood” practically culminates into urging the secular power to shed it, which proceeding is almost more odious – for it is less frank – than shedding it herself. Especially did she act thus in the sixteenth century with regard to Protestants. Not content to reform morally, to preach by example, to convert people by eloquent and holy missionaries, she lit in Italy, in the Low Countries, and above all in Spain the funeral piles of the Inquisition. In France under Francis I. And Henry II., in England under Mary Tudor, she tortured the heretics, whilst both in France and Germany during the second half of the sixteenth and the first half of the seventeenth century is she did not actually begin, at anyrate she encouraged and actively sided the religious wars. No one will deny that we have here a great scandal to our contemporaries excepting to a certain class still having few adherents which theoretically – but theory often gives way before facts – affects a certain taste for violence and bloodshed." [The Renaissance and Protestantism; Lectures given at the Catholic Institute of Paris January to March 1904; By Alfred Baudrillart; Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris; With a prefatory letter from H. E. Cardinal Perraud of the French Academy; Authorised Translation By Mrs. Philip Gibbs; Chapter VII [7]; On the use of force by the Catholic Church against Protestants – The Inquisition in Italy and in Spain – Religious wars – Protestant intolerance.] - http://ia600204.us.archive.org/3/items/catholicchurchre00bauduoft/catholicchurchre00bauduoft.pdf [The International Catholic Library – Edited by Rev. J. Wilhelm, D.D., Ph.D. Joint Author of the Manual of Catholic Theology.
IV [4] . The Catholic Church. The Renaissance. Protestantism. By Alfred Baudrillart, Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris. Translated by Mrs Philip Gibbs. Price 7s. 6d.
London; Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co. Ltd. Dryden House, Gerrard Street, W. 1907
Nihil Obstat
J. Wilhelm, S.T.D.
Censor deputatus
Imprimi potest
[Maltese Cross] Gulielmus
Episcopus Arindelensis
Vicarius Generalis
Westmonasterii
die 11 Martii 1907
http://www.archive.org/details/catholicchurchre00bauduoft ]
"... That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. The memorials, indeed, of many of her persecutions are now so scanty, that it is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realise their sufferings. Llorente, who had free access to the archives of the Spanish Inquisition, assures us that by that tribunal alone more than 31,000 persons were burnt, and more than 290,000 condemned to punishments less severe than death. [1.] ..." [History of the Rise and Influence of the spirit of Rationalism in Europe Vol . II [2]; By W.E.H. Lecky, M.A. Revised Edition. In Two Volumes. New York and London; D. Appleton and Company 1919. pp 40; [1.] Llorente, Hist. De l'Inquisition, tom. iv. [4] pp 271,272. "...Llorente having been himself at one time secretary in the Inquisition, and having during the occupation by the French had access to all the secret papers of the tribunal, will always be the highest authority. ..."] - http://files.libertyfund.org/files/1667/Lecky_1341.02.pdf
IV [4] . The Catholic Church. The Renaissance. Protestantism. By Alfred Baudrillart, Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris. Translated by Mrs Philip Gibbs. Price 7s. 6d.
London; Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co. Ltd. Dryden House, Gerrard Street, W. 1907
Nihil Obstat
J. Wilhelm, S.T.D.
Censor deputatus
Imprimi potest
[Maltese Cross] Gulielmus
Episcopus Arindelensis
Vicarius Generalis
Westmonasterii
die 11 Martii 1907
http://www.archive.org/details/catholicchurchre00bauduoft ]
"... That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. The memorials, indeed, of many of her persecutions are now so scanty, that it is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realise their sufferings. Llorente, who had free access to the archives of the Spanish Inquisition, assures us that by that tribunal alone more than 31,000 persons were burnt, and more than 290,000 condemned to punishments less severe than death. [1.] ..." [History of the Rise and Influence of the spirit of Rationalism in Europe Vol . II [2]; By W.E.H. Lecky, M.A. Revised Edition. In Two Volumes. New York and London; D. Appleton and Company 1919. pp 40; [1.] Llorente, Hist. De l'Inquisition, tom. iv. [4] pp 271,272. "...Llorente having been himself at one time secretary in the Inquisition, and having during the occupation by the French had access to all the secret papers of the tribunal, will always be the highest authority. ..."] - http://files.libertyfund.org/files/1667/Lecky_1341.02.pdf
No-one is suggesting that Catholics deny that Jesus became a man. The problem is in what kind of man, why, how, and who from. And who said.
You and THBE are two peas in a pod. His quotes are an abuse of Catholic documents. Volume does not equal context. An example??? Every quote from a Catholic source is fashioned into weapon. He doesn't understand the catechism, how to use it properly or what and who it's for, he thinks Catholics sit around studying Canon Law which he grossly abuses as well. He has no idea what context means. He makes the common mistake of thinking that every single word ever wrote by any Catholic is infallible and binding, and ignores reformulation of centuries old teachings.
Scroll up to the last pile of taurus excretum. The The Decretum of Gratian is well know as a forgery! Like Phoneman, I can ask for recent scholarly documentation of 30,000- 100000(or whatever number you like) deaths, who killed them and why, but I will never get it. Because he, like you, and every hostile anti-Catholic, relies on false histories written in the post enlightenment era by modernists, atheists and communists who wrote against the Church. You won't support these ridiculous numbers with recent scholarly documentation either, because the facts contradict your preconceptions. And you wonder why so many educated SDA's are running for the nearest exit.
He, like you, uses standard outdated anti-Catholic rhetoric of just and unjust executions ignoring historical, political and social context. He cherry picks a few paragraphs from a lecture in a book that's over 100 years old and ignores the purpose of the lecture and presents this obscurity as if were infallibly declared by the Pope. He is a skilled derailer. His last post in this thread is a good example. The thread is about twisting and distorting scripture to force it to say what is not there for the sole purpose of attacking Catholicism, Babylon Scamylon,
NOT a soapbox for preaching flesh hating Gnosticism.
Derail, derail, derail.
Your Babble-on Whore obsession is no different than his. Hopefully, you might lean something here, if by chance your mind is your own.
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Phoneman777
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What you mistake as "fantasy" is known as "Biblical arguments". Catholics are taught not to approach Jesus directly, but that they need pray to Mary their "intercessor". She's known as the "wrath subduer", who "needs only to bear to Him the breasts that gave Him suck" in order to assuage His "great anger" towards sinners. This teaching is among the most sick of all Catholic doctrines and completely distorts the loving character of Jesus.
Phoneman777
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ByGrace, we Protestants have a responsibility to expose the lies of Catholicism which have left millions upon millions blind to Jesus' invitation to approach Him directly, a privilege that you no doubt cherish, but to which - by your disdain for those who speak out against the doctrines of Catholicism - selfishly cling. PLEASE, either join those who wish to avail this privilege to all trapped Catholics or keep your "Jane Fonda-esque" opinions to yourself regarding this matter.
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Greetings, Brakelite.
About this post, I agree that epostle has taken a derisive tone on this thread, which I cannot condone. But I can't let your post stand either. For one, I am no longer the least impressed with THBE's "academia." Secondly, while to his credit he is indeed generally good at refraining from insults, he is not without blame entirely, as you well know. I addressed him very clearly about his conduct a while ago. He proved himself incapable of even stepping up like a man to answer for his behavior but instead left you and quiet thinker to answer for him. I consider you to be of better character and therefore a better representative of what you believe. I still read your posts, and sometimes quietthinker's. But THBE's I do not. So I would again strongly suggest that you not stand behind him. You hurt your case more than help it by doing so.
@Jay Ross, @"ByGrace"
I say it respectfully, but SDA thought is unfortunately short-sighted. Despite the reams of supposed "evidence" that some like THBE may present, none of it is really worth considering. I don't hold resentments towards any of the SDA members here, so it is not said for any other reason than to defend you against what is in reality misguided heresy.
Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
Again, Roman Catholicism admits to its own past (now, after being caught in the act, and they boldly cry, "forgery!", like Judas, too late, too late, "I have betrayed the innocent blood ...", they say, but they share in no actual guilt.), and then seeks to cover over its long history, with 'forgery'! As the murderer caught, the adulterer caught! Their system indeed is the forgers of myriads of falsehoods ("Immaculate Conception", being just one) - then - and have changed nothing since, and so 'forge' lies now.
The "Donation of Constantine" is a forgery (and so they now admit after being caught), but knowingly used for centuries.
"The Decretum of Gratian", is no such forgery.
"... The "Decretum" of Gratian was considered in the middle of the twelfth century as a corpus juris canonici, i.e. a code of the ecclesiastical laws then in force. ...
... Five of these collections exhibited pontifical legislation from the "Decretum" of Gratian to the pontificate of Gregory IX (1150-1227). These are known as the "Quinque compilationes antiquæ". On account of their importance they were made the text of canonical instruction at the University of Bologna, and, like the "Decretum" of Gratian, were glossed, i.e. notes bearing on the explanation and interpretation of the text were added to the manuscripts. ..." - Roman Catholic Online Enyclopedia, Section D, Papal Decretals - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04670b.htm
*******
"... if we look to the history or chronological evolution of canon law, we find three epochs: from the beginning to the "Decretum" of Gratian exclusively; from Gratian to the Council of Trent; ...
... it is only in the middle of the twelfth century that we meet in the "Decretum" of Gratian the first really scientific treatise on canon law. ...
... Gratian's "Decretum" was a wonderful work; welcomed, taught and glossed by the decretists at Bologna and later in the other schools and universities, it was for a long time the textbook of canon law. ...
... It is true that the work is very rich in texts and there is hardly a canon of any importance contained in the earlier collections (including the decisions of the Lateran Council of 1139 and recent papal decretals) that Gratian has not used. ...
... Despite its imperfections, it must be admitted that the work of Gratian was as near perfection as was then possible. For that reason it was adopted at Bologna, and soon elsewhere, as the textbook for the study of canon law. ...
... for the history from the time of Gratian see J. F. Schulte, "Geschichte der Quellenund der Literatur des kanonischen Rechts von Gratian his zum Gegenwart" (Stuttgart, 1875 sq.), and "Die Lehre von der Quellen des katholiscen Kirchen rechts" (Giessen, 1860); ... - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, Section L - Canon Law - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm
... it is only in the middle of the twelfth century that we meet in the "Decretum" of Gratian the first really scientific treatise on canon law. ...
... Gratian's "Decretum" was a wonderful work; welcomed, taught and glossed by the decretists at Bologna and later in the other schools and universities, it was for a long time the textbook of canon law. ...
... It is true that the work is very rich in texts and there is hardly a canon of any importance contained in the earlier collections (including the decisions of the Lateran Council of 1139 and recent papal decretals) that Gratian has not used. ...
... Despite its imperfections, it must be admitted that the work of Gratian was as near perfection as was then possible. For that reason it was adopted at Bologna, and soon elsewhere, as the textbook for the study of canon law. ...
... for the history from the time of Gratian see J. F. Schulte, "Geschichte der Quellenund der Literatur des kanonischen Rechts von Gratian his zum Gegenwart" (Stuttgart, 1875 sq.), and "Die Lehre von der Quellen des katholiscen Kirchen rechts" (Giessen, 1860); ... - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, Section L - Canon Law - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm
TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
The "Donation of Constantine" is a forgery (and so they now admit after being caught), but knowingly used for centuries.
"The Decretum of Gratian", is no such forgery.
"... the author of the "Concordantia discordantium canonum", more generally called the "Decretum Gratiani", is furnished by that work itself, its earliest copies, and its twelfth-century "Summae" or abridgments. ... The "Decretum" was certainly known to Peter Lombard, for he makes use of it in his "Liber Sententiarum" ... He is the true founder of the science of canon law." - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, Section G, Joahnnes Gratian - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06730a.htm
*******
"... The "Decree" of Gratian is already called "Corpus Juris Canonici" by a glossator of the twelfth century, and Innocent IV calls by this name the "Decretals" of Gregory IX (Ad expediendos, 9 Sept., 1253). ...
... Since the second half of the thirteenth century, Corpus Juris Canonici in contradistinction to Corpus Juris Civilis, or Roman law, generally denoted the following collections:
Thus understood, the term dates back to the sixteenth century and was officially sanctioned by Gregory XIII (Cum pro munere, 1 July, 1580). The earliest editions of these texts printed under the now usual title of "Corpus Juris Canonici", date from the end of the sixteenth century (Frankfort, 8vo, 1586; Paris, fol., 1587). ...
... The history of canon law is generally divided into three periods. The first extends to the "Decree" of Gratian, i.e. to the middle of the twelfth century (jus antiquum); the second reaches to the Council of Trent (jus novum); the third includes the latest enactments since the Council of Trent inclusively (jus novissimum). ...
... The lengthy Irish collection of canons, compiled in the eighth century, influenced both Gaul and Italy. The latter country possessed, moreover, two fifth-century Latin translations of the Greek synods (the collection erroneously called "Isidoriana" or "Hispana", and the "Collectio Prisca"); also an important collection of pontifical and imperial documents (the "Avellana", compiled in the pontificate of Gregory the Great, 590-604). Africa possessed a collection of 105, or more exactly 94, canons, compiled about 419; also the "Breviatio Canonum", or digest of the canons of the councils by Fulgentius Ferrandus (died c. 546), and the "Concordia Canonum" of Cresconius, an adaptation of the "Dionysiana" (about 690). In Gaul are found, at the beginning of the sixth century, the "Statuta Ecclesiæ antiqua", erroneously attributed to Africa, and, among many other collections the "Quesneliana" (end of the fifth or beginning of the sixth century) and the "Dacheriana" (about 800), both so called from the names of their editors, Paschase Quesnel and d'Achéry. Spain possessed the "Capitula Martini", compiled about 572 by Martin, Bishop of Braga, and a "Codex canonum" or "Collectio Hispana" dating from about 633, attributed in the ninth century to St. Isidore of Seville. In the ninth century arose several apocryphal collections, viz, those of Benedictus Levita, of Isidorus Mercator (also Peccator or Mercatus), and the "Capitula Angilramni". An examination of the controversies which these three collections give rise to will be found elsewhere (see FALSE DECRETALS). The Pseudo-Isidorian collection, the authenticity of which was for a long time admitted, has exercised considerable influence on ecclesiastical discipline, without however modifying it in its essential principles. Among the numerous collections of a later date, we may mention the "Collectio Anselmo dedicata", compiled in Italy at the end of the ninth century, the "Libellus de ecclesiasticis disciplinis" of Regino of Prüm (died 915); the "Collectarium canonum" of Burchard of Worms (died 1025); the collection of the younger St. Anselm of Lucca, compiled towards the end of the eleventh century; the "Collectio trium partium", the "Decretum" and the "Panormia" of Yves of Chartres (died 1115 or 1117); the "Liber de misericordiâ et justitiâ" of Algerus of Liège, who died in 1132 — all collections which Gratian made use of in the compilation of his "Decretum". The aforesaid collections and others are described more fully in the article COLLECTIONS OF ANCIENT CANONS. ...
... It was about 1150 that the Camaldolese monk, Gratian, professor of theology at the University of Bologna ... canon law, composed the work entitled by himself "Concordia discordantium canonum", but called by others "Nova collectio", "Decreta", "Corpus juris canonici", also "Decretum Gratiani", the latter being now the commonly accepted name. ... The Roman revisers of the sixteenth century (1566-82) corrected the text of the "Decree" and added many critical notes designated by the words Correctores Romani. ...
... The general laws of a Later date than the "Decree" of Gratian have been called "Extravagantes", i.e. laws not contained in Gratian's "Decree" (Vagantes extra Decretum). These were soon brought together in new collections, five of which (Quinque compilationes antiquæ) possessed a special authority. Two of them, namely the third and the fifth, are the most ancient official compilations of the Roman Church (see PAPAL DECRETALS). ...
... In 1230 Gregory IX ordered St. Raymund of Pennafort to make a new collection, which is called the "Decretals of Gregory IX" (Decretales Gregorii IX). To this collection he gave force of law by the Bull "Rex pacificus", 5 Sept., 1234. This collection is also known to canonists as the "Liber extra", i.e. extra Decretum Gratiani. Boniface VIII published a similar code 3 March, 1298, called the "Sixth Book of the Decretals" (Liber Sextus). John XXII added to it the last official collection of Canon law, the "Liber septimus Decretalium", better known under the title of "Constitutiones Clementis V", or simply "Clementinæ" (Quoniam nulla, 25 Oct., 1317). Later on the canonists added to the manuscripts of the "Decretals" the most important constitutions of succeeding popes. These were soon known and quoted as "Extravagantes", i.e. twenty constitutions of John XXII himself, and those of other popes to 1484. ...
... The "Corpus Juris Canonici" was now, indeed, complete, but it contained collections of widely different juridical value. ... the "Decree" of Gratian, the "Extravagantes Joannis XXII", and the "Extravagantes communes" ... the documents which they contain may possess and, as a matter of fact, often do possess, very great authority. Moreover, custom has even given to several apocryphal canons of the "Decree" of Gratian the force of law. ...
... The "Decretals" of Gregory IX are indicated by the letter "X", i.e. extra Decretum Gratiani; the "Sixth Book" or "Decretals" of Boniface VIII by "in VIº" i.e. "in Sexto"; the "Clementines" by "in Clem.", i.e. "in Clementinis". ...
... Though the Council of Trent did not order a revision of the text of the canonical collections, St. Pius V appointed (1566) a commission to prepare a new edition of the "Corpus Juris Canonici". This commission devoted itself especially to the correction of the text of the "Decree" of Gratian and of its gloss. Gregory XIII ("Cum pro munere", 1 July, 1580; "Emendationem", 2 June, 1582) decreed that no change was to be made in the revised text. This edition of the "Corpus" appeared at Rome in 1582, in œdibus populi Romani, and serves as exemplar for all subsequent editions. ...
... However, the ancient "Corpus Juris Canonici" forms yet the basis of the actual canonical legislation. ..." - Roman Catholic Online Enecyclopedia, Section C, Corpis Juris Canonici - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04391a.htm
... Since the second half of the thirteenth century, Corpus Juris Canonici in contradistinction to Corpus Juris Civilis, or Roman law, generally denoted the following collections:
(1) the "Decretals" of Gregory IX;
(2) those of Boniface VIII (Sixth Book of the Decretals);
(3) those of Clement V (Clementinæ) i.e. the collections which at that time, with the "Decree" of Gratian, were taught and explained at the universities.
At the present day, under the above title are commonly understood these three collections with the addition of the "Decree" of Gratian, the "Extravagantes" of John XXII, and the "Extravagantes Communes".(2) those of Boniface VIII (Sixth Book of the Decretals);
(3) those of Clement V (Clementinæ) i.e. the collections which at that time, with the "Decree" of Gratian, were taught and explained at the universities.
Thus understood, the term dates back to the sixteenth century and was officially sanctioned by Gregory XIII (Cum pro munere, 1 July, 1580). The earliest editions of these texts printed under the now usual title of "Corpus Juris Canonici", date from the end of the sixteenth century (Frankfort, 8vo, 1586; Paris, fol., 1587). ...
... The history of canon law is generally divided into three periods. The first extends to the "Decree" of Gratian, i.e. to the middle of the twelfth century (jus antiquum); the second reaches to the Council of Trent (jus novum); the third includes the latest enactments since the Council of Trent inclusively (jus novissimum). ...
... The lengthy Irish collection of canons, compiled in the eighth century, influenced both Gaul and Italy. The latter country possessed, moreover, two fifth-century Latin translations of the Greek synods (the collection erroneously called "Isidoriana" or "Hispana", and the "Collectio Prisca"); also an important collection of pontifical and imperial documents (the "Avellana", compiled in the pontificate of Gregory the Great, 590-604). Africa possessed a collection of 105, or more exactly 94, canons, compiled about 419; also the "Breviatio Canonum", or digest of the canons of the councils by Fulgentius Ferrandus (died c. 546), and the "Concordia Canonum" of Cresconius, an adaptation of the "Dionysiana" (about 690). In Gaul are found, at the beginning of the sixth century, the "Statuta Ecclesiæ antiqua", erroneously attributed to Africa, and, among many other collections the "Quesneliana" (end of the fifth or beginning of the sixth century) and the "Dacheriana" (about 800), both so called from the names of their editors, Paschase Quesnel and d'Achéry. Spain possessed the "Capitula Martini", compiled about 572 by Martin, Bishop of Braga, and a "Codex canonum" or "Collectio Hispana" dating from about 633, attributed in the ninth century to St. Isidore of Seville. In the ninth century arose several apocryphal collections, viz, those of Benedictus Levita, of Isidorus Mercator (also Peccator or Mercatus), and the "Capitula Angilramni". An examination of the controversies which these three collections give rise to will be found elsewhere (see FALSE DECRETALS). The Pseudo-Isidorian collection, the authenticity of which was for a long time admitted, has exercised considerable influence on ecclesiastical discipline, without however modifying it in its essential principles. Among the numerous collections of a later date, we may mention the "Collectio Anselmo dedicata", compiled in Italy at the end of the ninth century, the "Libellus de ecclesiasticis disciplinis" of Regino of Prüm (died 915); the "Collectarium canonum" of Burchard of Worms (died 1025); the collection of the younger St. Anselm of Lucca, compiled towards the end of the eleventh century; the "Collectio trium partium", the "Decretum" and the "Panormia" of Yves of Chartres (died 1115 or 1117); the "Liber de misericordiâ et justitiâ" of Algerus of Liège, who died in 1132 — all collections which Gratian made use of in the compilation of his "Decretum". The aforesaid collections and others are described more fully in the article COLLECTIONS OF ANCIENT CANONS. ...
... It was about 1150 that the Camaldolese monk, Gratian, professor of theology at the University of Bologna ... canon law, composed the work entitled by himself "Concordia discordantium canonum", but called by others "Nova collectio", "Decreta", "Corpus juris canonici", also "Decretum Gratiani", the latter being now the commonly accepted name. ... The Roman revisers of the sixteenth century (1566-82) corrected the text of the "Decree" and added many critical notes designated by the words Correctores Romani. ...
... The general laws of a Later date than the "Decree" of Gratian have been called "Extravagantes", i.e. laws not contained in Gratian's "Decree" (Vagantes extra Decretum). These were soon brought together in new collections, five of which (Quinque compilationes antiquæ) possessed a special authority. Two of them, namely the third and the fifth, are the most ancient official compilations of the Roman Church (see PAPAL DECRETALS). ...
... In 1230 Gregory IX ordered St. Raymund of Pennafort to make a new collection, which is called the "Decretals of Gregory IX" (Decretales Gregorii IX). To this collection he gave force of law by the Bull "Rex pacificus", 5 Sept., 1234. This collection is also known to canonists as the "Liber extra", i.e. extra Decretum Gratiani. Boniface VIII published a similar code 3 March, 1298, called the "Sixth Book of the Decretals" (Liber Sextus). John XXII added to it the last official collection of Canon law, the "Liber septimus Decretalium", better known under the title of "Constitutiones Clementis V", or simply "Clementinæ" (Quoniam nulla, 25 Oct., 1317). Later on the canonists added to the manuscripts of the "Decretals" the most important constitutions of succeeding popes. These were soon known and quoted as "Extravagantes", i.e. twenty constitutions of John XXII himself, and those of other popes to 1484. ...
... The "Corpus Juris Canonici" was now, indeed, complete, but it contained collections of widely different juridical value. ... the "Decree" of Gratian, the "Extravagantes Joannis XXII", and the "Extravagantes communes" ... the documents which they contain may possess and, as a matter of fact, often do possess, very great authority. Moreover, custom has even given to several apocryphal canons of the "Decree" of Gratian the force of law. ...
... The "Decretals" of Gregory IX are indicated by the letter "X", i.e. extra Decretum Gratiani; the "Sixth Book" or "Decretals" of Boniface VIII by "in VIº" i.e. "in Sexto"; the "Clementines" by "in Clem.", i.e. "in Clementinis". ...
... Though the Council of Trent did not order a revision of the text of the canonical collections, St. Pius V appointed (1566) a commission to prepare a new edition of the "Corpus Juris Canonici". This commission devoted itself especially to the correction of the text of the "Decree" of Gratian and of its gloss. Gregory XIII ("Cum pro munere", 1 July, 1580; "Emendationem", 2 June, 1582) decreed that no change was to be made in the revised text. This edition of the "Corpus" appeared at Rome in 1582, in œdibus populi Romani, and serves as exemplar for all subsequent editions. ...
... However, the ancient "Corpus Juris Canonici" forms yet the basis of the actual canonical legislation. ..." - Roman Catholic Online Enecyclopedia, Section C, Corpis Juris Canonici - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04391a.htm
TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
Now to the actual "forgery" the "Donation of Constantine":
"... Henry Edward Cardinal Manning of England, an extensive Roman Catholic writer, of high esteem in his church, applies the same title to the pope, only using it in its English translation. He says of the popes:
The same year, this book was translated and published in Italian, with the sanction of the church attached to it. The title "Vicar of the Son of God" appears on pages 234 and 235 of that edition. {1943 CE, FAFA 223.3}
Philippe Labbe, "a distinguished Jesuit writer on historical, geographical, and philological questions" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, pp. 718, 719), in his historical work "Sacrosancta concilia ad regiam editionem exacta," Vol. I, page 1534 (Paris: 1671), uses 'Vicarius Filii Dei' as the official title of the pope. {1943 CE, FAFA 223.4}
see - Sacrosancta concilia ad regiam editionem exacta quae nunc quarta parte prodit auctior
[Latin Lines, Right Hand Column, 5 Line down in Latin, beginning at 2nd word from left, "... trus vicarius filii Dei ..."]
Coming down to our own times, we shall call to the witness stand a modern advocate of the Roman Catholic cause. Our Sunday Visitor, of Huntington, Ind., in its issue of April 18, 1915, gives clear testimony in this case. We quote it in full: {1943 CE, FAFA 223.5}
Later, when Roman Catholic authorities discovered that Protestants were making use of the foregoing statements to identify the Papacy with the antichristian power of Revelation 13: 18, they attempted to repudiate the contents of their former article. But that article was not written by some contributor to their paper; it appeared in the "Bureau of Information," for which the editorial staff was responsible. And on page two of that paper appeared sanctions for the editor from Pope Pius X, dated May 17, 1914; from the Apostolic Delegate, John Bonzano, dated April 27, 1913; and from J. H. Alerding, Bishop of Fort Wayne, Ind., dated March 29, 1912. If statements made under such high authorities are not trustworthy, we would respectfully ask if their present denials are any more so? {1943 CE, FAFA 224.2}
To one versed in Catholic teaching and practice, there is nothing uncommon in such denials, where the interest of the Church is at stake. Cardinal Baudrillart's quotation on pages 64 and 245 of this book shows that some Catholic authors "ask permission from the Church to ignore or even deny" some historical facts, which they "dare not" face; and we read in "History of the Jesuits," by Andrew Steinmetz, Vol. 1, p. 13, that their accredited histories in common use, 'with permission of authority,' [are] veiling the subject with painful dexterity." - London: 1848. {1943 CE, FAFA 224.3}
We shall here refer to one other similar denial. In the Roman Catholic paper, Shepherd of the Valley, there appeared an article by the editor, in which he stated: If Catholics ever attain, which they surely will, though at a distant day, the immense numerical majority in the United States, religious liberty, as at present understood, will be at an end." A Protestant lecturer, who made use of this quotation, was bitterly arraigned in a double-column front-page article in the Catholic Standard and Times for his false statements regarding Catholics; for, it pointed out, if he had finished the quotation with the words which followed, "so say our enemies," it would have reversed its meaning. The incident would have passed off at the expense of the Protestant lecturer, had not the Western Watchman of July 24, 1913, continued the quotation still further, declaring: {1943 CE, FAFA 225.1}
Why those who tried to deny their former statements should leave out the words, "so say we," is very evident. But what can we think of those who publicly deny facts to screen their church from unfavorable public opinions, unless they act from the motive that "the end justifies the means," and that "heretics " have no moral right to facts which they would misuse. (See also pages 64 and 65 of this book.) {1943 CE, FAFA 225.3}
We shall therefore continue to believe that the editors of Our Sunday Visitor, in its issue of April 18, 1915, page three, were perfectly honest and well informed on the subject, and that the later denials are of the same class as those mentioned above. {1943 CE, FAFA 225.4}
226
Our Sunday Visitor in the aforementioned quotation makes use of Vicarius Filii Dei and "Vicar of Christ" as synonymous terms, and Cardinal Manning does the same in his book, "Temporal Power of the Pope." It cannot, therefore, be maintained, as some do, that Vicarius Christi is the only mode of spelling used as the title of the pope, although the shorter rendering is used more often for brevity's sake. In fact Vicarius Christi is composite in its origin, Vicarius being Latin, while Christi is Latinized from the Greek. It would hardly seem probable that learned Romanists would adopt such a composite title to the exclusion of the pure, dignified, Latin title, Vicarius Filii Dei, which has been in use among them for centuries. {1943 CE, FAFA 226.1}
Of late, Catholic apologists have argued that the "name of the beast " in Revelation 13: 17, 18 is a personal name of a single individual, such as Nero, and not the official title of a series of men, as that of the popes would be. But this would be entirely out of harmony with the context, for how could one man make war with God's people, and overcome them in every country, so that he would have power "over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations"? Revelation 13: 7. Then, too, that power was to continue forty and two months (v. 5), which those apologists claim to be literal. But how could one man accomplish such a world task in forty-two literal months?' {1943 CE, FAFA 226.2}
These forty-two months are twelve hundred and sixty prophetic days (Revelation 11: 2, 3), and in prophecy a day stands for a year (Ezekiel 4: 6). (Even Catholics acknowledge that a day in prophecy stands for a year. See note under Daniel 9: 24-27 in the Douay Bible. Father Reaves says: "The prophet's weeks are, by all interpreters of the Holy Scriptures, understood to include years for days." - "Bible History," p. 345) The forty-two months, or twelve hundred and sixty days, of Revelation 13: 5 are therefore twelve hundred and sixty years, during which this power was to continue. But would not that period be quite a long time for one man to live? This attempt made by Roman apologists to screen the Papacy from being detected as the antichristian power of Revelation 13 appears too shallow to be seriously asserted by men who have made a thorough study of Bible prophecy. {1943 CE, FAFA 226.3} ..."[
"... Henry Edward Cardinal Manning of England, an extensive Roman Catholic writer, of high esteem in his church, applies the same title to the pope, only using it in its English translation. He says of the popes:
"The temporal power in the hands of St. Gregory I was a fatherly and patriarchal rule over nations not as yet reduced to civil order. In the hands of St. Leo III it became a power of creating empires. In the hands of St. Gregory VII it was a scourge to chasten them. In the hands of Alexander III it was a dynasty, ruling supremely, in the name of God, over the powers of the world. . . . So that I may say there never was a time when the temporal power of the Vicar of the Son of God, though assailed as we see it, was more firmly rooted throughout the whole unity of the Catholic Church. {1943 CE, FAFA 223.1}
It was a dignified obedience to bow to the Vicar of the Son of God, and to remit the arbitration of their griefs to one whom all wills consented to obey." - "The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ," pp. 231, 232, second edition. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862. {1943 CE, FAFA 223.2}
It was a dignified obedience to bow to the Vicar of the Son of God, and to remit the arbitration of their griefs to one whom all wills consented to obey." - "The Temporal Power of the Vicar of Jesus Christ," pp. 231, 232, second edition. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862. {1943 CE, FAFA 223.2}
The same year, this book was translated and published in Italian, with the sanction of the church attached to it. The title "Vicar of the Son of God" appears on pages 234 and 235 of that edition. {1943 CE, FAFA 223.3}
Philippe Labbe, "a distinguished Jesuit writer on historical, geographical, and philological questions" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, pp. 718, 719), in his historical work "Sacrosancta concilia ad regiam editionem exacta," Vol. I, page 1534 (Paris: 1671), uses 'Vicarius Filii Dei' as the official title of the pope. {1943 CE, FAFA 223.4}
see - Sacrosancta concilia ad regiam editionem exacta quae nunc quarta parte prodit auctior
[Latin Lines, Right Hand Column, 5 Line down in Latin, beginning at 2nd word from left, "... trus vicarius filii Dei ..."]
Coming down to our own times, we shall call to the witness stand a modern advocate of the Roman Catholic cause. Our Sunday Visitor, of Huntington, Ind., in its issue of April 18, 1915, gives clear testimony in this case. We quote it in full: {1943 CE, FAFA 223.5}
"What are the letters supposed to be in the Pope's crown, and what do the signify, if anything? {1943 CE, FAFA 223.6}
"The letters inscribed in the Pope's mitre are these: Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. Catholics hold that the Church which is a visible society must have a visible head. Christ, before His ascension into heaven, appointed St. Peter to act as His representative. Upon the death of Peter the man who succeeded to the office of Peter as Bishop of Rome, was recognized as the head of the Church. Hence to the Bishop of Rome, as head of the Church, wag given the title 'Vicar of Christ.' {1943 CE, FAFA 223.7}
"Enemies of the Papacy denounce this title as a malicious assumption. But the Bible informs us that Christ did not only give His Church authority to teach, but also to rule. Laying claim to the authority to rule in Christ's spiritual kingdom, in Christ's stead, is not a whit more malicious than laying claim to the authority to teach in Christ's name. And this every Christian minister does." - "Our Sunday Visitor," April 18, 1915, thirteenth question under "Bureau of Information," p. 3. {1943 CE, FAFA 224.1}
"The letters inscribed in the Pope's mitre are these: Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God. Catholics hold that the Church which is a visible society must have a visible head. Christ, before His ascension into heaven, appointed St. Peter to act as His representative. Upon the death of Peter the man who succeeded to the office of Peter as Bishop of Rome, was recognized as the head of the Church. Hence to the Bishop of Rome, as head of the Church, wag given the title 'Vicar of Christ.' {1943 CE, FAFA 223.7}
"Enemies of the Papacy denounce this title as a malicious assumption. But the Bible informs us that Christ did not only give His Church authority to teach, but also to rule. Laying claim to the authority to rule in Christ's spiritual kingdom, in Christ's stead, is not a whit more malicious than laying claim to the authority to teach in Christ's name. And this every Christian minister does." - "Our Sunday Visitor," April 18, 1915, thirteenth question under "Bureau of Information," p. 3. {1943 CE, FAFA 224.1}
Later, when Roman Catholic authorities discovered that Protestants were making use of the foregoing statements to identify the Papacy with the antichristian power of Revelation 13: 18, they attempted to repudiate the contents of their former article. But that article was not written by some contributor to their paper; it appeared in the "Bureau of Information," for which the editorial staff was responsible. And on page two of that paper appeared sanctions for the editor from Pope Pius X, dated May 17, 1914; from the Apostolic Delegate, John Bonzano, dated April 27, 1913; and from J. H. Alerding, Bishop of Fort Wayne, Ind., dated March 29, 1912. If statements made under such high authorities are not trustworthy, we would respectfully ask if their present denials are any more so? {1943 CE, FAFA 224.2}
To one versed in Catholic teaching and practice, there is nothing uncommon in such denials, where the interest of the Church is at stake. Cardinal Baudrillart's quotation on pages 64 and 245 of this book shows that some Catholic authors "ask permission from the Church to ignore or even deny" some historical facts, which they "dare not" face; and we read in "History of the Jesuits," by Andrew Steinmetz, Vol. 1, p. 13, that their accredited histories in common use, 'with permission of authority,' [are] veiling the subject with painful dexterity." - London: 1848. {1943 CE, FAFA 224.3}
We shall here refer to one other similar denial. In the Roman Catholic paper, Shepherd of the Valley, there appeared an article by the editor, in which he stated: If Catholics ever attain, which they surely will, though at a distant day, the immense numerical majority in the United States, religious liberty, as at present understood, will be at an end." A Protestant lecturer, who made use of this quotation, was bitterly arraigned in a double-column front-page article in the Catholic Standard and Times for his false statements regarding Catholics; for, it pointed out, if he had finished the quotation with the words which followed, "so say our enemies," it would have reversed its meaning. The incident would have passed off at the expense of the Protestant lecturer, had not the Western Watchman of July 24, 1913, continued the quotation still further, declaring: {1943 CE, FAFA 225.1}
"The whole quotation should read: 'If Catholics ever attain, which they surely will, though at a distant day, the immense numerical majority in the United States, religious liberty, m at present understood, will be at an end. So say our enemies; so say we."' - Quoted in "Protestant Magazine," October, 1913, p 474. {1943 CE, FAFA 225.2}
Why those who tried to deny their former statements should leave out the words, "so say we," is very evident. But what can we think of those who publicly deny facts to screen their church from unfavorable public opinions, unless they act from the motive that "the end justifies the means," and that "heretics " have no moral right to facts which they would misuse. (See also pages 64 and 65 of this book.) {1943 CE, FAFA 225.3}
We shall therefore continue to believe that the editors of Our Sunday Visitor, in its issue of April 18, 1915, page three, were perfectly honest and well informed on the subject, and that the later denials are of the same class as those mentioned above. {1943 CE, FAFA 225.4}
226
Our Sunday Visitor in the aforementioned quotation makes use of Vicarius Filii Dei and "Vicar of Christ" as synonymous terms, and Cardinal Manning does the same in his book, "Temporal Power of the Pope." It cannot, therefore, be maintained, as some do, that Vicarius Christi is the only mode of spelling used as the title of the pope, although the shorter rendering is used more often for brevity's sake. In fact Vicarius Christi is composite in its origin, Vicarius being Latin, while Christi is Latinized from the Greek. It would hardly seem probable that learned Romanists would adopt such a composite title to the exclusion of the pure, dignified, Latin title, Vicarius Filii Dei, which has been in use among them for centuries. {1943 CE, FAFA 226.1}
Of late, Catholic apologists have argued that the "name of the beast " in Revelation 13: 17, 18 is a personal name of a single individual, such as Nero, and not the official title of a series of men, as that of the popes would be. But this would be entirely out of harmony with the context, for how could one man make war with God's people, and overcome them in every country, so that he would have power "over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations"? Revelation 13: 7. Then, too, that power was to continue forty and two months (v. 5), which those apologists claim to be literal. But how could one man accomplish such a world task in forty-two literal months?' {1943 CE, FAFA 226.2}
These forty-two months are twelve hundred and sixty prophetic days (Revelation 11: 2, 3), and in prophecy a day stands for a year (Ezekiel 4: 6). (Even Catholics acknowledge that a day in prophecy stands for a year. See note under Daniel 9: 24-27 in the Douay Bible. Father Reaves says: "The prophet's weeks are, by all interpreters of the Holy Scriptures, understood to include years for days." - "Bible History," p. 345) The forty-two months, or twelve hundred and sixty days, of Revelation 13: 5 are therefore twelve hundred and sixty years, during which this power was to continue. But would not that period be quite a long time for one man to live? This attempt made by Roman apologists to screen the Papacy from being detected as the antichristian power of Revelation 13 appears too shallow to be seriously asserted by men who have made a thorough study of Bible prophecy. {1943 CE, FAFA 226.3} ..."[
Wow. Is the hatred out of your system yet?
You must certainly not be a disciple of Christ since He said we shall know each other by the love we have for each other.
John 13:35
I will remove myself from this thread, but first I'd like to ask you one thing only:
Could you explain to me what's wrong with the above explanation of the Trinity?
How do YOU understand the Trinity to be ?
Is it not three persons in One God?
TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
Hi sister,
Read the definition (of Rome) carefully.
Study what the Bible says in regards "one" in connection with JEHOVAH Elohiym, begin with Genesis 1:1.
The question is faulty (as it is not about what "I" ('YOU') understand, only what scripture itself says in its plain statements, for God is true), but, here is a listing on the subject already posted for you, to answer your question (see also the context in the surrounding posts), for the Roman Catholic official definition (there are other def.) of "trinity" (teaches 'one principle', thus singularity, and ultimately denies the actual persons/beings of the individual Father and individual Son (and so also the Holy Ghost)) denies "the father and the son" (1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.) -
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411413
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411415
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411416
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411418
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411419
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411420
Oh, Roman Catholicism will 'say' all kinds of things outwardly that sounds pleasing, sounds right at first thought, but it is in the details in the definition. This is not to be harsh. It is based in the above demonstrated materials, and myriad more. It involves carefully reading, since their material is all very carefully worded and specifically defined (and in many cases, using definitions defined in other older materials).https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411415
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411416
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411418
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411419
https://www.christianityboard.com/t...cter-that-will-stand.26071/page-6#post-411420
There's much too much to read.
I read the details of what you posted very well.
I also know what the CC teaches about the Trinity because I've had to teach it.
The only debate is the filoque clause.
Did the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father or from the Father and the Son?
Other than this, which is a Western and Eastern debate, I can see nothing wrong with the explanation YOU posted regarding the Trinity,,, and since you cannot take the time to explain why you are opposed to it, I'll let this go with the statement that everything you posted is correct.
There is nothing to read between the lines.
Neither @"ByGrace" nor anyone else on this forum need keep their opinions to themselves. We are all here to post our thoughts, and since we're not theologists, I'd say that even YOU should not act as if you are one. And even if you were,,,I would have no obligation to agree with you.
Catholics don't need US to teach them anything. They were around a very long time before Protestantism came to being. They've made many mistakes...why? Because they're humans, just like we protestants are. I do hope you remember the witch burnings and the hatred we have even amoungst ourselves. I'm speaking here of calvinists and non-calvinists --- the hatred is palpable at times.
Catholics believe Jesus saves. In 1999 an agreement was signed with the LUTHERAN church stating that we are saved by faith alone. Methodists signed this same agreement a few years later. Evangelicals have not and the reason escapes me since it would be the truth.
Is it Mary you hate so much? Do you believe Jesus is happy to know how much you hate her? Do you respect her? Then why carry on about it?
And remember this: You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
No catholic would ever listen to the likes of the posts I'm reading here.
How exactly do you think you're helping them?
Some are saved and some are not.
Just like Protestants.
TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
Sister, with all respect, you presently do not understand the Catholic-Lutheran 'accord' definitions therein:
You have been lied to (hoodwinked):
"... 15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11] ..." - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
TheHolyBookEnds
Well-Known Member
With all due respect to YOU,
If I wanted to watch YouTube, I'd be on my couch.
I presented what I KNOW...
How about correcting me?
I'm not watching two videos that total 3 hours for something that doesn't even seem important to me --- unless you could also explain WHY this is so important.
The understanding of JUSTIFICATION is pivitol to one's understanding of salvation.
This seems VERY important to me --- the agreement, I mean.
It's said that the CC believes we are justified by grace AND works... They've changed it, in theory, to grace alone.
Ah. But then comes regeneration, or sanctification. And therein lies our problem, still to this day. But that's another story you don't seem to be interested in.
Tearing down Catholicism is of no value IMHO.
How about tearing down calvinism that distorts the very nature and character of God??
Are you with me?
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