BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

[Jane_Doe22]

Hi JD,
Just came across this...
I don't know if @Marymog has replied, but I will.

It would be interesting to know what you mean by a false tenet before answering, but I'll take my chances.

The CC believes that it holds the entire truth because of Apostolic Succession. If we want to be intellectually honest, we have to accept that if we go backwards in time, we come to the Early Church theologians (or Fathers) and they were taught by the Apostles, or someone the Apostles knew. Since this has been passed down, the CC believes it is the pillar of truth.

Some doctrine did evolve in time, but the church is very much trusted by Catholics.
They are required to accept dogma and encouraged to accept doctrine. If they don't accept dogma, then they pray about it -- for understanding, I mean.

This has kept the CC together for 2,000 years...something I cannot say about the Protestant church with all its denominations, to say nothing of independent churches with their own doctrine.

If a church believes it has the ENTIRE truth, then by default it believes others don't. However, I do know for sure that it teaches respect of all religions and persons. If this is not shown by any individual, he is going against church teaching.

I hope this answers your question...

I appreciate you taking the time to write this, @GodsGrace, though I was wanting Mary herself to give her own words for her thoughts/actions. I am very familiar with Catholic teachings, having attended various Catholic services for over a decade, many long conversation, reading CCC, etc. Loving and respecting people in other faiths is a HUGE deal for me, even when a person passionately finds the other's beliefs to not be True. Hence my own regular study of Catholicism, even though I don't find some of their beliefs to be True.

 

[Marymog]

Your attitude is not appreciated, nor does it show the love of Christ.

As I pointed out... "It is not I who am pretending that Christ is the bread and wine, but you are." Thus, the warning is for you.

Thank you Scott. I gave you a warning from Paul soooo I am not sure what that has to do with my attitude.

While holding bread and wine in His hand Jesus said "This IS my body/blood".....Soooooo how is believing what Jesus said "pretending"?

When one practices and believes the OPPOSITE of what Jesus says and "pretends" it is a symbol then.....Oh, never mind. You don't believe what He said.....I do.....Good luck with you theory.

2nd request: I never said that water has power..... If I did, PLEASE quote me.

Patient Mary

 

[ScottA]

Thank you Scott. I gave you a warning from Paul soooo I am not sure what that has to do with my attitude.

It doesn't. I addressed two different things separately in one post. Don't mix things up.

While holding bread and wine in His hand Jesus said "This IS my body/blood".....Soooooo how is believing what Jesus said "pretending"?

If you cannot reason that Jesus referring to an inanimate object to make a point is not a parable and symbolism, then as He said, "How then will you understand all parables?"

The first lesson on parables...is that the object and the subject are not the same. In this case, that means the bread and wine were and are not actually His body and blood. He was simply using examples. Nonetheless, there is a massage and a commandment using the objects of the parable language to make a point about the subject. In which case it is wrong to make the parable about the object instead of about the subject. But this you have done, and have totally missed His point.

When one practices and believes the OPPOSITE of what Jesus says and "pretends" it is a symbol then.....Oh, never mind. You don't believe what He said.....I do.....Good luck with you theory.

There you go with the attitude again.

2nd request: I never said that water has power..... If I did, PLEASE quote me.

I never said that you said the water has power. That is not what I was saying. I simply meant that you were looking at the objects that Jesus gave as examples, as if they themselves were the embodiment of Christ...like we should partake of them instead of partaking of Jesus himself.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

It doesn't. I addressed two different things separately in one post. Don't mix things up.

If you cannot reason that Jesus referring to an inanimate object to make a point is not a parable and symbolism, then as He said, "How then will you understand all parables?"

The first lesson on parables...is that the object and the subject are not the same. In this case, that means the bread and wine were and are not actually His body and blood. He was simply using examples. Nonetheless, there is a massage and a commandment using the objects of the parable language to make a point about the subject. In which case it is wrong to make the parable about the object instead of about the subject. But this you have done, and have totally missed His point.
There you go with the attitude again.
I never said that you said the water has power. That is not what I was saying. I simply meant that you were looking at the objects that Jesus gave as examples, as if they themselves were the embodiment of Christ...like we should partake of them instead of partaking of Jesus himself.

@Marymog , this is a place where you taking the time to understand and respect another person's view (even if you don't find it to be True) will go a LONG way to making a better conversation. Simply lecturing the other person "your view is unscriptural!" will not go anywhere, cause they will just shout the same thing back at you. To convey your view you first need to establish that you see/care about the person and you're listening to them.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, I have asked you the question "in your opinion/beliefs, how should are person who believes some false tenets be treated?" half a dozen different ways now. You have not answered it again and again. And yes, I find Catholicism to be a church that believes some false tenets.

I advocate that people whom believe false tenets should be treated with respect still (which includes their beliefs). Hence my respect of Catholic people and their beliefs, even though I find some of those beliefs to be false.

Thus far, you seem to be of the opinion that respecting someone's less-than-completely-true-beliefs is wrong and sinful. Therefore, by your logic my respecting of Catholicism and Catholic individuals is sinful and should be repented of.

If this is not your view, I welcome you to clarify it now. But until then, that's the impression I have.

When you say that you “advocate that people whom believe false tenets should be treated with respect” then what you are ‘advocating’ is opposite of scripture.

In context to this conversation here is my definition of a false tenet: A person who holds/adheres to a false belief or doctrine.

My definition of respect in the context of this conversation: Act as if their false belief has no bearing on their salvation and pretend their belief is just as equal as yours, even though you disagree with it. In a nut shell here is what you are "advocating'.....”You believe a lie (opposite of what Scripture says)! Oh well, no big deal. I still respect you. ”

If you tell someone that what they believe and practice is OPPOSITE of Scripture then you are telling them they do NOT believe/practice the Truth and they have accepted a twisting of scripture that has been given to them by a false teacher. If they practice/believe the opposite of scripture then they are not doing the will of God.

If you, Jane Doe, RESPECT another person’s false belief and you don’t tell them that their belief is wrong and that they could possibly lose their salvation and you still hang around them and pretend you are equally yoked with them or greet him into your house, even though they believe a false doctrine, then you are violating scripture. If a person does not accept the teachings of The Church, which is a teaching of the Truth, then they should be treated as a heathen or tax collector. That is what scripture says,...Not Marymog.

Jesus did not “respect” people who held did not accept his teachings. When they walked away he did not chase after them.

The Apostles did not “respect” people who held false beliefs/teachings/doctrines. The Apostles CHASTISED those that held false beliefs and told us to be on the look out for false teachers and prophets and have nothing to do with them.

The Church decides what false doctrine is. Not you. Not me. You are not The Church. The Church does not "accept" or "respect" false doctrines.

You have made it clear that you, Jane Doe, believe that you have the Truth. I believe The Church has the Truth since, as it states in scripture, the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I appreciate you taking the time to write this, @GodsGrace, though I was wanting Mary herself to give her own words for her thoughts/actions. I am very familiar with Catholic teachings, having attended various Catholic services for over a decade, many long conversation, reading CCC, etc. Loving and respecting people in other faiths is a HUGE deal for me, even when a person passionately finds the other's beliefs to not be True. Hence my own regular study of Catholicism, even though I don't find some of their beliefs to be True.

@GodsGrace did a very good job...Thank you GG.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog , this is a place where you taking the time to understand and respect another person's view (even if you don't find it to be True) will go a LONG way to making a better conversation. Simply lecturing the other person "your view is unscriptural!" will not go anywhere, cause they will just shout the same thing back at you. To convey your view you first need to establish that you see/care about the person and you're listening to them.

It is not a matter of what I find to be true. I am not the pillar and foundation of Truth. The Church is.

I don't respect false teachings of scripture. Do you?

Curious Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

When you say that you “advocate that people whom believe false tenets should be treated with respect” then what you are ‘advocating’ is opposite of scripture.

In your reading of scripture.

I find scripture strongly advocates that exact love of ALL men.

My definition of respect in the context of this conversation: Act as if their false belief has no bearing on their salvation and pretend their belief is just as equal as yours, even though you disagree with it..

That's not the definition of respect. I'm talking about loving, seeing them, to act with humility towards, and showing charity them-- see Corin 13.

”You believe a lie (opposite of what Scripture says)! Oh well, no big deal. I still respect you. ”
.

That is not my stance at all. You're arguing against something I'm not even saying.

The Church decides what false doctrine is. Not you. Not me. You are not The Church. The Church does not "accept" or "respect" false doctrines.

Correction: God declares Truth.
And I not find the Catholic Church to be the God's Church. I admire and do (yes) respect (show love, see acknowledge, show charity) the good things it does. But I do not find it to be God's Church.

 

[Marymog]

It doesn't. I addressed two different things separately in one post. Don't mix things up.

If you cannot reason that Jesus referring to an inanimate object to make a point is not a parable and symbolism, then as He said, "How then will you understand all parables?"

The first lesson on parables...is that the object and the subject are not the same. In this case, that means the bread and wine were and are not actually His body and blood. He was simply using examples. Nonetheless, there is a massage and a commandment using the objects of the parable language to make a point about the subject. In which case it is wrong to make the parable about the object instead of about the subject. But this you have done, and have totally missed His point.
There you go with the attitude again.
I never said that you said the water has power. That is not what I was saying. I simply meant that you were looking at the objects that Jesus gave as examples, as if they themselves were the embodiment of Christ...like we should partake of them instead of partaking of Jesus himself.

Hi Scott. I want to start off by saying I owe you an apology. I now see that you did not say that I said that water has power. I inferred it because I thought you were implying it.

Are you saying that the dialogue at The Last Supper (Take and eat/drink, this is my body/blood) was a parable? I can see how you would confuse it as a symbol but not a parable.

For the sake of discussion I will go ahead and pretend that at the Last Supper he meant it as a "symbol". However, before The Last Supper occurred he said we must eat His body and drink His blood and if we don't we have no life in us further saying that those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life,.....for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them......so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever”. What did he mean by that? HOW do we eat his flesh and drink his blood?

The Jews asked the same question you have asked: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? It was very difficult for them to understand also and they walked away. Maybe if they would have hung around for The Last Supper they would have found out HOW he was going to give his flesh to eat?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Correction: God declares Truth.
And I not find the Catholic Church to be the God's Church. I admire and do (yes) respect (show love, see acknowledge, show charity) the good things it does. But I do not find it to be God's Church.

So if you throw in the words admire, respect, love and charity into your sentence your just politely telling me I am wrong and you are right. Thank you for your politeness.

What "truth" did God declare to you about The Real Presence? False doctrine or God breathed?

How about baptism? Is it necessary for salvation? False doctrine or God breathed? Or is it just a symbol?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Correction: God declares Truth.
And I not find the Catholic Church to be the God's Church.

If the CC isn't Gods Church then which church is?

Patient Mary

 

[mjrhealth]

If the CC isn't Gods Church then which church is?

this one

Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

and this

Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

which no man can build, there is not one single religion on this earth that fullfills that, not one.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So if you throw in the words admire, respect, love and charity into your sentence your just politely telling me I am wrong and you are right. Thank you for your politeness.

More than that. I'm also saying that I see you, value your opinion, want to get my facts straight as to what it is, and I honestly care what you think/believe. And again, I do love and care.

What "truth" did God declare to you about The Real Presence? False doctrine or God breathed?

How about baptism? Is it necessary for salvation? False doctrine or God breathed? Or is it just a symbol?

Curious Mary

Are you asking out of seeing/me love? Or is this just staging for another proselytizing attempt?
I'm not Catholic. I'm not going to be Catholic ever. You pushing that only backfires.

If the CC isn't Gods Church then which church is?

Patient Mary

First thing first: you need to understand that NO Church is king. The Church is a servant of the King, and we each are to approach the King directly. It isn't about looking towards men, it's about coming to God. Do you understand that?

 

[ScottA]

Are you saying that the dialogue at The Last Supper (Take and eat/drink, this is my body/blood) was a parable? I can see how you would confuse it as a symbol but not a parable.

Symbols are what is used in parables to give a likeness of the subject using another object. So, to answer your question: In this case, the two words (parable and symbol) mean the same thing.

For the sake of discussion I will go ahead and pretend that at the Last Supper he meant it as a "symbol". However, before The Last Supper occurred he said we must eat His body and drink His blood and if we don't we have no life in us further saying that those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life,.....for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them......so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever”. What did he mean by that? HOW do we eat his flesh and drink his blood?

The Jews asked the same question you have asked: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? It was very difficult for them to understand also and they walked away. Maybe if they would have hung around for The Last Supper they would have found out HOW he was going to give his flesh to eat?

I am not misunderstanding, I understand perfectly well. On the contrary, you are taking Him literally, when that was not how He meant it. And that was the error also of the Jews - they took what He said literally also, and walked away. You, on the other hand, have not walked away, but have confused the object of His comments with the subject as if they are one and the same...when they are not.

 

[GodsGrace]

If the CC isn't Gods Church then which church is?

Patient Mary

Church should have been written with a small c or the replies will be correct....

 

[GodsGrace]

Symbols are what is used in parables to give a likeness of the subject using another object. So, to answer your question: In this case, the two words (parable and symbol) mean the same thing.

I am not misunderstanding, I understand perfectly well. On the contrary, you are taking Him literally, when that was not how He meant it. And that was the error also of the Jews - they took what He said literally also, and walked away. You, on the other hand, have not walked away, but have confused the object of His comments with the subject as if they are one and the same...when they are not.

Could you look up John 6:54 in the Greek and explain it?
What does the word eat mean?
I wonder if it means the same in the Aramaic....
I wonder what language Jesus was speaking at the last supper?
Hebrew?

Yes. I'm confused ....

 

[GodsGrace]

I appreciate you taking the time to write this, @GodsGrace, though I was wanting Mary herself to give her own words for her thoughts/actions. I am very familiar with Catholic teachings, having attended various Catholic services for over a decade, many long conversation, reading CCC, etc. Loving and respecting people in other faiths is a HUGE deal for me, even when a person passionately finds the other's beliefs to not be True. Hence my own regular study of Catholicism, even though I don't find some of their beliefs to be True.

If you're familiar with Catholic teaching, there should be no need for your question to @Marymog .
It's obvious she's a traditional Catholic and adheres to church teachings.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

If you're familiar with Catholic teaching, there should be no need for your question to @Marymog .
It's obvious she's a traditional Catholic and adheres to church teachings.

I have observed that "traditional Catholic" views can vary widely. I would also rather here someone directly tell me their beliefs rather than assuming they fit some mold.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have observed that "traditional Catholic" views can vary widely. I would also rather here someone directly tell me their beliefs rather than assuming they fit some mold.

I'm sorry. I agree with you.
I've just known Mary longer I suppose.
But .you're right.

 

[Marymog]

Are you asking out of seeing/me love? Or is this just staging for another proselytizing attempt?
I'm not Catholic. I'm not going to be Catholic ever. You pushing that only backfires.

Let me ask it a different way.

You said that "God declares truth". So I ask you Jane Doe, WHO has God declared this Truth to?

You accused the CC of having non-biblical and false doctrines.

You stated that Calvin was a false teacher.

You made it clear that you know what heretical doctrine leads people away from Christ.

You stated you have come to these conclusions by an EXTREMELY thorough studying of scripture, prayer, different doctrine, different religious texts and examining the fruits of different beliefs. Further saying that you studied the beliefs of multiple denominations but not because you were looking for the Truth.

So I have to ask you Jane Doe: How do you know the CC has non-biblical and false doctrines? To KNOW what is false you would have to know what is True. Who revealed the Truth to you?

You have declared Calvin a false teacher. If you KNOW he is a false teacher then you must know who is teaching the Truth? You must KNOW when know when you hear the Truth? How is this revealed to you?

Since you KNOW what a heretical doctrine you must know what a non-heretical doctrine is. How do you discern the two?

You have thoroughly studied all these things and prayed about it. Good for you. That's how it should be done. So have thousands of other men. Explain to me why your conclusion at the end of your studying and prayer differ from that of Calvin (a false teacher) or the men of the CC (who's conclusions created false/heretical doctrines) or the men of the Baptist church etc. etc.? Why does your Truth pre-empt everyone else's truth?

Curious and patient Mary