Baptism ?

[Ernest T. Bass]

no need for endless long articles and sermons as Jn 3:5 is clear enough as water and spirit and not water alone or spirit alone and necessary as passport to enter the kingdom - any comments - twinc

The question therefore, as I see it, is what role does water play in the new birth and what role does the Spirit play in the new birth.

The role of water is water baptism.
A few verses later (John 3:22-23) I see what Jesus meant by water.
In water baptism, one is raised up from a watery grave to walk in "newness of life" Romans 6:4. New life = new birth.
From the context of John 3, Nicodemus had not been born again. Was his not being born again:
1) the fault and culpability of Nicodemus for not having obeyed by being water baptized with John's baptism (Luke 7:30)?
or
2) the fault and culpability of the Spirit for not having acted in some supernatural way upon Nicodemus?

The role of Spirit is His word as it acts upon the heart (Ephesians 6:17 cf Acts 2:37). The Spirit's word instructs men as to how to be saved. Those that gladly receive the word and obey it by being water baptized (Acts 2:41) have in that sense been "born again..by the word of God" (1 Peter 1:23) have been "begat..with the word of truth" (James 1:18) have been "begat..through the gospel" (1 Corinthians 4:15).

 

[H. Richard]

Dear sir,

You stated "Some will disagree.....". You are right...'some' will disagree: Martin Luther said: “Here [John 3:5] Christ is speaking of Baptism, of real and natural water such as a cow may drink. . . . Here Christ also speaks of the Holy Spirit and teaches us to regard Baptism as a spiritual, yes, a Spirit-filled water, in which the Holy Spirit is present and active. . . . And thus the person who has been baptized is said to be born anew. . . . . In this passage Christ declares that whoever is not born anew of the water and the Holy Spirit cannot come into the kingdom of God. Therefore God’s words dare not be tampered with. Of course, we are well aware that Baptism is natural water. But after the Holy Spirit is added to it, we have more than mere water. It becomes a veritable bath of rejuvenation, a living bath which washes and purges man of sin and death, which cleanses him of all sin."

Research and read what Protestant commentator R.V.G. Tasker said in Tyndale New Testament Commentaries: The Gospel According to St. John 4: 71.

This new teaching you have suggested began AFTER the Reformation. The Early Church did not practice what you believe. The Reformers didn't practice what you believe. Scripture doesn't' support what you believe. Scripture is clear that water = baptism. What is the water that is referred to in that passage???

Acts 22:16, Acts 8:36, Acts 16:31 refer to water baptism.

I will repeat what I said before: The NT is rife with water baptism. When one looks at the totality of John, and the rest of the NT, we can easily see that He was referring to water baptism. I prefer to put scripture in context. You prefer to cherry pick scripture to fit your belief. Your belief has only been taught for about 500 years.

All historical Christian writings from the time show that they practiced water baptism. Should I believe your theory or the Christians who lived closer to the time of Christ and the Apostles???

What did Jesus mean when he said to Nicodemus: You are Israel's teacher and do you not understand these things?

From whom did you get your teaching from? Or are you just being antagonistic?? If you are, I don't mind.

Post #73 and 74 are well written by @BreadOfLife so I refer you to them also.

Water saved Moses during the Exodus. Water saved Noah and his family. Water is one of the means used to bring about ritual purity. Persons who were unclean in a religious sense had to subject to a bath of purification (Leviticus 13-15). Ezekiel 16: 9 mentions a washing with water and an anointing with oil, through which Jerusalem was received into a covenant of salvation. This can also be understood as a reference to Holy Baptism with water and Holy Sealing.


Mary

***

You reolied with "Here [John 3:5] Christ is speaking of Baptism, of real and natural water such as a cow may drink. . . . Here Christ also speaks of the Holy Spirit and teaches us to regard Baptism as a spiritual, yes, a Spirit-filled water, in which the Holy Spirit is present and active.

More words that are not in John 3:1-6.

I agree that the word of God is not to be tampered with. But you can not see that when you add the word baptism to what it says in John 3:1-6 you are tampering with it.

Water did not save Noah. The ark did. The water was God's judgement of death. All who were in the water died. The ark represents Jesus Christ because all that are in Him will be saved.

You really ought to read the Bible for what it says and not what you want it to say.

2 Cor 1:19-22
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you ""in Christ"" and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

I look at the words ""in Christ"" and think of them in reference to Noah and the flood.

Noah was told by God to build an Ark. It was built by human hands (Noah’s hands). The waters of God‘s wrath in the flood did not touch Noah and those with him. Noah, by his choice, obeyed God and went into the Ark he had built. --- The waters of the flood were the judgment of God on a sinful world full of sinful people. That does not mean that Noah was sinless. It means Noah believed what God told him.

Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them since they have been atoned (paid) for by the blood of Jesus on the cross.

Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, and are kept from the judgment of the law. If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us.

I believe what Paul said when he penned the words ""in Christ."" I also believe that we are placed ""in Christ"" by God. It is an operation of the Holy Spirit (God).

 

[Enoch111]

Are you the Enoch referred to in Acts 8:36? If so, he was WATER baptized

There's no Enoch in Acts 8:36. And he was baptized AFTER he was saved and regenerated.

The word water NOR baptism is ever mentioned in 1 Peter 1:23-25 and it has NOTHING to do with baptism.

But it has everything to do with the NEW BIRTH. So why don't you study that passage carefully so that you can abandon your false doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

Or does Tradition trump Scripture every time?

 

[Enoch111]

The role of water is water baptism.

No it is not. The "water" of the Word of God (the Word of Truth) is the seed of the New Birth.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No it is not. The "water" of the Word of God (the Word of Truth) is the seed of the New Birth.

Nothing in the context shows that water means anything other than water. When compared with other texts:

Jn 3:5--------------Spirit+++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13--------Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5---------Holy Ghost+++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>saved

Water = baptized = baptismal font

=======

From the context of John 3, Nicodemus had not been born again. Was his not being born again:
1) the fault and culpability of Nicodemus for not having obeyed by being water baptized with John's baptism (Luke 7:30)?
or
2) the fault and culpability of the Spirit for not having acted in some supernatural way upon Nicodemus?

Nicodemus was not born again for not being water baptized with John's baptism, John 3:23-23 cf Luke 7:30.


======


Matthew 7:21------------do the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
John 3:3------------------born again>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>see the kingdom of God

Just one way to be saved/enter the kingdom, no alternatives. Then there is a definite connection between 'doing the will of the Father' and being 'born again'. God has commanded water baptism and those that humbly submit themselves to being water baptized are therefore doing the will of the Father and are born again.

 

[Enoch111]

Nothing in the context shows that water means anything other than water

And that is exactly why we are commanded to search the Scriptures.

The Bible doctrine of salvation is not limited to one passage, and we see over and over again that it was AFTER people were saved that they were baptized -- not baptized for salvation and regeneration.

ACTS 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord [THE GOSPEL], and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The Bible is crystal clear that sinners are justified by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So the moment this man and his household believed, they were justified. And justification goes hand in hand with regeneration (Tit 3:4-7) After that they were baptized.

If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then Paul would undoubtedly have said "Be baptized and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". Which means that the "water" in John 3 is the water of the Gospel -- the Word of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And that is exactly why we are commanded to search the Scriptures.

The Bible doctrine of salvation is not limited to one passage, and we see over and over again that it was AFTER people were saved that they were baptized -- not baptized for salvation and regeneration.

ACTS 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord [THE GOSPEL], and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The Bible is crystal clear that sinners are justified by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. So the moment this man and his household believed, they were justified. And justification goes hand in hand with regeneration (Tit 3:4-7) After that they were baptized.

If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then Paul would undoubtedly have said "Be baptized and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ". Which means that the "water" in John 3 is the water of the Gospel -- the Word of God.

But the jailer did not believe only. When we search the scriptures we see:

Acts 16:33 "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately."
Acts 16:34 "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God."

The participle "having believed" of verse 34 sums up all the jailer had just done in repenting (washing stripes) and being baptized of verse 33.
"The perfect participle depicts the state at which they arrived as a consequence of their obedience." Wayne Jackson, "Belief As Used In the Book of Acts" ChristianCourier.com | Church of Christ magazine investigating religious doctrine, Christian evidences, and ethical issues.

There is nothing in any context that changes water from meaning water in John 3:5.

 

[Ac28]

In the only books that give us our matching orders for today, Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon, there is only one baptism, Eph 4:5, and it is Spirit baptism. Water baptism was an ordinance and, in this period of Pure grace, we are not under any ordinances
Col 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

 

[Philip James]

In the onlly books that give us our matching orders for today, Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon,

Guess we can just toss the rest away hunh?

 

[Grams]

In the onlly books that give us our matching orders for today, Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon, there is only one baptism, Eph 4:5, and it is Spirit baptism. Water baptism was an ordinance and, in this period of Pure grace, we are not under any ordinances
Col 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Yes~ you are reading the bible correctly....... do you go to a bible church ? KJB ?

 

[epostle1]

But the jailer did not believe only. When we search the scriptures we see:

Acts 16:33 "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately."
Acts 16:34 "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God."

The participle "having believed" of verse 34 sums up all the jailer had just done in repenting (washing stripes) and being baptized of verse 33.
"The perfect participle depicts the state at which they arrived as a consequence of their obedience." Wayne Jackson, "Belief As Used In the Book of Acts" ChristianCourier.com | Church of Christ magazine investigating religious doctrine, Christian evidences, and ethical issues.

There is nothing in any context that changes water from meaning water in John 3:5.

You can't reason with a person who has been duped by doctrine that is less than 10 years old. Metaphorical or gospel water is not Christianity. Facts, scriptures, 2000 years of consistent teaching and practice, and common sense is of no avail. I would like to know the name of his group but I don't think one exists. It's innovative, recent fad theology you find only on the internet.

 

[Ac28]

Guess we can just toss the rest away hunh?

I'm talking about what things are meant specifically for us Gentiles, you and me, today. You will find nothing in Acts or the Gospels or the OT or anything written by the 12 or James that will provide any of that information. However, no books are tossed. The other 59 books are all FOR our learning. However, when it comes to OUR specific calling, hope, and the things that apply to them, those other 59 books all pertain to Israel, whose hope and calling are totally different than ours. If we don't cut and separate out, as per 2Tim 2:15, those things pertaining to Israel's hopes and callings, we will have contradictions and confusion will result. That why God will approve of you if you obey 2Tim 2:15.

For example, the calling of the New Jerusalem, Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22, was the prize Calling of the Acts church. The NJ IS NOT Heaven. It comes down OUT of Heaven and docks on the New Earth. In Paul's last 7 books, the Calling is Actual Heaven, as proven by many passages in those 7 books.

Then there's the rapture which is the resurrection hope for the Jew/Gentile church of Acts. The resurrection hope after Acts is called the "Appearing" and, if you read, you's see it's totally different than the rapture.

There are many other things to rightly divide (correctly cut), if you want to know the truth about YOU and your family. If you want to hear lies, attend any mainstream denominational church. Since NONE of them obey God obey God and correctly cut his word, as commanded in 2Tim 2:15, about half of what they teach is Jewish doctrine that doesn't apply directly to you, at all.

Just seeing that the callings are different (New Jerusalem vs Heaven), which is obvious with a little study, should give you a clue that you'd better watch what you're doing, because it's a slippery slope if you don't rightly divide God's word

 

[epostle1]

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 – these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.
Col 2:11-12 – however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant.
Circumcision therefore must have been metaphorical. DUH! DUH!

 

[epostle1]

I'm talking about what things are meant specifically for us Gentiles, you and me, today. You will find nothing in Acts or the Gospels or the OT or anything written by the 12 or James that will provide any of that information. However, no books are tossed. The other 59 books are all FOR our learning. However, when it comes to OUR specific calling, hope, and the things that apply to them, those other 59 books all pertain to Israel, whose hope and calling are totally different than ours. If we don't cut and separate out, as per 2Tim 2:15, those things pertaining to Israel's hopes and callings, we will have contradictions and confusion will result. That why God will approve of you if you obey 2Tim 2:15.

For example, the calling of the New Jerusalem, Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22, was the prize Calling of the Acts church. The NJ IS NOT Heaven. It comes down OUT of Heaven and docks on the New Earth. In Paul's last 7 books, the Calling is Actual Heaven, as proven by many passages in those 7 books.

Then there's the rapture which is the resurrection hope for the Jew/Gentile church of Acts. The resurrection hope after Acts is called the "Appearing" and, if you read, you's see it's totally different than the rapture.

There are many other things to rightly divide (correctly cut), if you want to know the truth about YOU and your family. If you want to hear lies, attend any mainstream denominational church. Since they don't obey God and correctly cut his word, as in 2Tim 2:15, about half of what they teach is Jewish doctrine that doesn't apply directly to you.

Find any Bible canon anywhere in the world that compiled 59, 60, or 66 books before the 14th century, and then I will take you seriously.

 

[Philip James]

I'm talking about what things are meant specifically for us Gentiles, you and me, today. You will find nothing in Acts or the Gospels or the OT or anything written by the 12 or James that will provide any of that information

Wow! Just wow...

 

[Ac28]

Wow! Just wow...

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 – these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.
Col 2:11-12 – however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant.
Circumcision therefore must have been metaphorical. DUH! DUH!

Show me where it specifically says, in any of the other 59 books, that any GeEditntile (or any Jew, for that matter) has a hope of spending eternity in Heaven. The ONLY place you find this is in Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts and, if you look, you'll find it about a dozen times. It's not hid under a bushel.. You certainly won't find it in John or Romans or Corinthians or Matthew or any of the other 100% all-Israel books. Don't you realize that the very first blessings from God that Gentiles ever got, as a group, in the entire Bible, without becoming Jewish proselytes or being grafted into Israel, occur only in Eph, Phil, Col. 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon, after Israel was set aside by God. Those books are your books.

Show me where is says specifically that we Gentiles are under the New Covenant. According to Jer 31:31 and Heb 8:8. the NC is for Israel. It will have one purpose, to put Israel's law in their inward parts, though the Holy Spirit, so Israel will keep and love keeping the law, which they will ALWAYS have to keep.

The only baptism in Colossians is spirit baptism. Water baptism is an ordinance and in Col 2:20, it says that ordinances no longer apply to us. Since the end of Acts, we Gentiles of the present day, totally non-Israel, Gentile church are under Pure Grace, or didn't you get that message? No ordinances, no law, no circumcision, no Old Testament, no hanging on to Israel's coattail. Zero association with Israel, period. If those so-called Jews in Israel want to get saved, they can bekrve 1Cor 15:1-4, just like we have to do. The last (Gentiles) shall be first and the first (Israel) shall be last. That's what happened.

Israel really screwed up when they stubbornly refused to accept Christ as their Messiah, during the Gospels and Acts, after about 37 years of showing them signs and wonders through the Gifts, bringing Gentiles into the Jewish church to provoke them to jealousy, and the 12, Paul, and a lot of other believers going to Israel first. Had they accepted Christ, they would be now sitting pretty in the New Jerusalem, attached to the New Earth or on the New Earth itself, surrounded by the New Heavens, and the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 1000 years old. Stupid, proud, obstinate people.

 

[Philip James]

Show me where it specifically says, in any of the other 59 books, that any Gentile (or any Jew, for that matter) has a hope of spending eternity in Heaven

In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

 

[Philip James]

. Since the end of Acts, we Gentiles of the present day tolally non-Israel Gentile church

If youre not in the Church of Isreal, you better examine yourself more closely friend

Peace!

 

[Ac28]

In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

I see you discovered the New Jerusalem, which certainly isn't Heaven. Better find another one. If anyone else in the Bible had a hope of heaven, it would be broadcast in depth, just like it is in Eph, Col, and 2Tim today. It wouldn't just be in some iffy verse like the one you posted.

 

[Philip James]

I see you discovered the New Jerusalem, which certainly isn't Heaven. Better find another one. If anyone else in the Bible had a hope of heaven, it would be broadcast in depth, just like it is in Eph, Col, and 2Tim today. It wouldn't just be in some iffy verse like the one you posted.

Heaven is to be where Jesus is.